Reviewing the NFL Draft (Madden Edition)

[Dwaresacksqb]

Quote: Originally Posted by iversonfan13

Most draft analysts had Jaylon Smith as the best player in the draft prior to his injury. Add in the fact that the Cowboys Doctor did his surgery so if anyone would know his chance at recovery it would be him.

And Maddens score should reflect that. You don't count an injury when grading their abilities. I expect Jaylon Smith to be in the top 5 of highest overall rookies. My order would go like this.

1. Leramy Tunsil
2. Jaylon Smith
T3. Ezekiel Elliot
T3. Jalen Ramsey
T5. Myles Jack
T5 Joey Bosa

Something like that. It's a given that some of those players will have the same overall so I threw in some ties.

Edit: it's funny that Jacksonville and Dallas would get 2 players in the top five but that's just how this year's draft worked out. I've seen Jaylon Smith the number 1 ranked player and I've also seen Myles Jack the number 1 overall player by scouts. Madden shouldn't let their injuries and being selected in the 2nd round along with 2 franchises getting 2 in the top 5 affect that. If they do I would be dissapointed.

[drewst18]

I hope I'm wrong but I am going to say Myles Jack is going to be Da'Quan Bowers 2.0.

For those who remember Bowers was being taken in top 5 in every mock draft you could find, most athletic next big name for defensive ends.

http://walterfootball.com/scoutingre...owers_greg.php

At first people said oh his knee is a slight concern and then reports began to surface that his knee may be worse and same degenerative problems that Jack is said to likely encounter. He fell to the second round and I was praying the Lions would take him, not often you can get a top 5 talent in 2nd round. However while scouts are often wrong where to place players I think doctor's know their stuff slightly better. Bowers is now not on an NFL roster and injuries plagued him his career with the bucs. The gun stuff didn't help either which hopefully Jack can avoid.

I wish Jack the best but am very skeptical when 31 other teams pass on a guy that talented over medical concerns.

[grgmths1433]

I think the steal of the draft will be Derrick Henry of the Titans. I think he will eventually start over Murray this year. I agree about the Jags, they gonna be a force and playoff contender for a while. I like my Titans picks as well.

[Ampking101]

Quote: Originally Posted by Dwaresacksqb

McFadden played his first full season of his career at 28 and is now 29. He was not a quality starter until he ran behind that line. Morris is 28 and has been declining since his rookie season. He was let go into free agency by Washington and had trouble finding work. Why waste the talent up front and the philosophy we have of running the ball. Devonte Freeman is a stud found in the fourth round, congrats to the Falcons. Do you want me to list running backs who didn't do squat picked in the 4th round now? Please don't say yes lol Plenty of scouts and former players including Deion Sanders have come out and said Jalen Ramsey is a safety not a corner to them. Maybe Dallas also thought the same thing. I know our DB coach Dave Campo has come out and saI'd so. Not sure Jalen Ramsey at safety helps our team out more than Ezekiel Elliot. Ezekiel Elliot many have claimed to be the best running back to come out since AP. I'll take that. Jaylon Smith was considered a better prospect and linebacker than Myles Jack by many people. One scout said Jaylon Smith was the highest graded player he ever scouted. Mike Mayock said he's the best linebacker to come out since Luke kuechly. So if you say Myles Jack if healthy is the steal you might also want to place that tag on Jaylon Smith... if healthy. I liked the Jags and Browns draft this year as well. Edit: Myles Jack will NEVER be fully recovered. He has a degenerating knee. It will give eventually. Nobody knows when. I hope it doesn't happen until he's fulfilled all he wants to achieve in the NFL and had a long stellar career.

I somewhat agree with your assessment on both McFadden and Morris. That said with the Dallas oline both of them are viable starters. McFadden was always injured because of a lack of oline and really any other offensive weapons, guess who else would have possibly been terrible without an oline, Emmitt Smith (no I'm not saying Mcfadden is Emmitt calibre). Morris also would have been able to put up serviceable numbers with that offensive line. Especially seeing as they are not a run first team. That isn't to say Elliot is a bad pick at all but at 4 is a little too early in my opinion. Also I don't need you to list the running backs who have gone in the 4th to end up doing nothing, I know the stats. Do you want me to list the running backs taken in the first who have been busts (hint one of them is the player you just said wasn't a legitimate starter until he ran behind the Cowboys line)? For fun let us take a look at just a couple that were taken in the top 5 just for fun.

Trent Richardson 2012, 3rd overall pick
Combine Profile:
"Richardson is a talented back who should garner a top-five pick in this year's draft, regardless of the idea the past few years that the shelf life and durability of running backs doesn't warrant the risk of a top pick. Richardson is durable enough to handle a season full of carries, and with the new CBA rules putting a ceiling on rookie salaries, it will be tough for teams to pass on such a talented, polished back that will be a franchise back for years to come."

Darren Mcfadden 2008, 4th overall pick
Combine Profile:
"Darren McFadden, a two-time Heisman runner-up, is regarded as one of the finest players in college football in recent years and one of the best to come out of the University of Arkansas.
The two-time Doak Walker Award winner shattered numerous school and Southeastern Conference records during his three seasons at Arkansas, establishing himself as one of the league's elite all-time backs -- Herschel Walker of Georgia, Bo Jackson of Auburn and Emmitt Smith of Florida."

Knowshon Moreno 2009, 12th pick overall
Combine Profile
"Possessing extraordinary lateral quickness and elusiveness that has drawn comparisons to Barry Sanders, Moreno teamed with quarterback Matthew Stafford for two years to give the Bulldogs the most feared tandem of skill position players in college football. An offensive machine, Moreno rushed for 2,734 yards and 30 touchdowns in two seasons after redshirting in 2006 in addition to catching 53 passes for 704 yards and two scores."

Yeah not often it pans out (I could name more but I think I made my point). That isn't to say that Elliot won't be a star (I'm very sure that behind the Dallas line he will be a probowler), I do however think using him being compared Adrian Peterson as an argument for where he was drafted, when these guys were basically compared to Barry Sanders and Emmitt Smith, is laughable when comparisons are more often than not dead wrong. However if we are rating the picks on a scale of where they were picked vs where there actual value was (which is all we have since we have never seen them play at the pro level, and college success means little when it comes to the pros *cough*Tebow*cough*) Elliot in my opinion was taken early seeing as even Adrian Peterson was taken outside of the top 5 at 7th overall.

Jalen Ramsey on the other hand, has shown that he has the coverage versatility to play defensive back, not "just safety". He would arguably help a lot more than what you have. Again I am simply rating the choice based on likelyhood. I will be the first to openly admit I could be wrong (I am not a seer and I am not all knowing), I just don't believe I am wrong.

Also on your note about Myles Jack vs Jaylon Smith. I agree that Smith has potential galore, however I would be more willing to take Jack over him as making a recovery (at least with what information I have available). Jack was cleared by multiple teams to be ready to play, it was only once he brought up the surgery that teams got hesitant. However if you are going to talk about a degenerative knee (which can still be played with, albeit with some difficulty), we are talking about Smith having possible permanent nerve damage, that is something that if not healed from can be absolutely debilitating. Now the Cowboys have gone on record saying they think he will make a full recovery (and that may be true) however if he doesn't, that will definitely effect his playing ability. So yes if he recovers, I will place that tag on him as well, I just sadly don't see the likelyhood of that being the case. I do think he will be a good 2nd round pick up if he doesn't make a full recovery and does play (but now that doesn't make him a steal does it?).

I'll also mention that I've never been a fan of analysts coverage of the draft as they are often wrong. Heck as a Falcon fan I like Neal and think he had tons of potential but I wholeheartedly think we took him too early and should have taken Lawson instead or traded down. He was graded at one point as a possible 2nd rounder and we could have drafted him much later than where we did. Does he have the potential to be the next Kam Chancellor? I believe it is possible. Was he taken too early? Yes a thousand times. I however don't think our draft was an A- as NFL.com has rated (though I really do like a lot of the picks we made)

Also I will just add I am speaking about real life, not just Madden ratings. Those ratings will constantly change based on their real life counterparts and how they do in real life will vastly be reflected on Madden. So sure out of the box most of these players will start out great but some will quickly devolve while some will shoot through the the roof but we can only speculate. If we are only talking madden ratings as a whole than I do think that Elliot (as long as he stays healthy) will be the biggest winner in ratings this season as his stats will be inflated by that oline.

[Dwaresacksqb]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ampking101

I somewhat agree with your assessment on both McFadden and Morris. That said with the Dallas oline both of them are viable starters. McFadden was always injured because of a lack of oline and really any other offensive weapons, guess who else would have possibly been terrible without an oline, Emmitt Smith (no I'm not saying Mcfadden is Emmitt calibre). Morris also would have been able to put up serviceable numbers with that offensive line. Especially seeing as they are not a run first team. That isn't to say Elliot is a bad pick at all but at 4 is a little too early in my opinion. Also I don't need you to list the running backs who have gone in the 4th to end up doing nothing, I know the stats. Do you want me to list the running backs taken in the first who have been busts (hint one of them is the player you just said wasn't a legitimate starter until he ran behind the Cowboys line)? For fun let us take a look at just a couple that were taken in the top 5 just for fun. Trent Richardson 2012, 3rd overall pick Combine Profile: "Richardson is a talented back who should garner a top-five pick in this year's draft, regardless of the idea the past few years that the shelf life and durability of running backs doesn't warrant the risk of a top pick. Richardson is durable enough to handle a season full of carries, and with the new CBA rules putting a ceiling on rookie salaries, it will be tough for teams to pass on such a talented, polished back that will be a franchise back for years to come." Darren Mcfadden 2008, 4th overall pick Combine Profile: "Darren McFadden, a two-time Heisman runner-up, is regarded as one of the finest players in college football in recent years and one of the best to come out of the University of Arkansas. The two-time Doak Walker Award winner shattered numerous school and Southeastern Conference records during his three seasons at Arkansas, establishing himself as one of the league's elite all-time backs -- Herschel Walker of Georgia, Bo Jackson of Auburn and Emmitt Smith of Florida." Knowshon Moreno 2009, 12th pick overall Combine Profile "Possessing extraordinary lateral quickness and elusiveness that has drawn comparisons to Barry Sanders, Moreno teamed with quarterback Matthew Stafford for two years to give the Bulldogs the most feared tandem of skill position players in college football. An offensive machine, Moreno rushed for 2,734 yards and 30 touchdowns in two seasons after redshirting in 2006 in addition to catching 53 passes for 704 yards and two scores." Yeah not often it pans out (I could name more but I think I made my point). That isn't to say that Elliot won't be a star (I'm very sure that behind the Dallas line he will be a probowler), I do however think using him being compared Adrian Peterson as an argument for where he was drafted, when these guys were basically compared to Barry Sanders and Emmitt Smith, is laughable when comparisons are more often than not dead wrong. However if we are rating the picks on a scale of where they were picked vs where there actual value was (which is all we have since we have never seen them play at the pro level, and college success means little when it comes to the pros *cough*Tebow*cough*) Elliot in my opinion was taken early seeing as even Adrian Peterson was taken outside of the top 5 at 7th overall. Jalen Ramsey on the other hand, has shown that he has the coverage versatility to play defensive back, not "just safety". He would arguably help a lot more than what you have. Again I am simply rating the choice based on likelyhood. I will be the first to openly admit I could be wrong (I am not a seer and I am not all knowing), I just don't believe I am wrong. Also on your note about Myles Jack vs Jaylon Smith. I agree that Smith has potential galore, however I would be more willing to take Jack over him as making a recovery (at least with what information I have available). Jack was cleared by multiple teams to be ready to play, it was only once he brought up the surgery that teams got hesitant. However if you are going to talk about a degenerative knee (which can still be played with, albeit with some difficulty), we are talking about Smith having possible permanent nerve damage, that is something that if not healed from can be absolutely debilitating. Now the Cowboys have gone on record saying they think he will make a full recovery (and that may be true) however if he doesn't, that will definitely effect his playing ability. So yes if he recovers, I will place that tag on him as well, I just sadly don't see the likelyhood of that being the case. I do think he will be a good 2nd round pick up if he doesn't make a full recovery and does play (but now that doesn't make him a steal does it?). I'll also mention that I've never been a fan of analysts coverage of the draft as they are often wrong. Heck as a Falcon fan I like Neal and think he had tons of potential but I wholeheartedly think we took him too early and should have taken Lawson instead or traded down. He was graded at one point as a possible 2nd rounder and we could have drafted him much later than where we did. Does he have the potential to be the next Kam Chancellor? I believe it is possible. Was he taken too early? Yes a thousand times. I however don't think our draft was an A- as NFL.com has rated (though I really do like a lot of the picks we made) Also I will just add I am speaking about real life, not just Madden ratings. Those ratings will constantly change based on their real life counterparts and how they do in real life will vastly be reflected on Madden. So sure out of the box most of these players will start out great but some will quickly devolve while some will shoot through the the roof but we can only speculate. If we are only talking madden ratings as a whole than I do think that Elliot (as long as he stays healthy) will be the biggest winner in ratings this season as his stats will be inflated by that oline.

Those three running backs you mentioned are bad examples I'm sorry.

Trent Richardson: had potential galore but the absolute worst work habit. He got fat and lazy destroying his own career. Very similar to JaMarcus Russell. Ezekiel Elliot by ALL accounts is the exact opposite.

Darren McFadden: Injuries absolutely destroyed his career. One year, I forget which. He was leading the league in rushing for Oakland for a good chunk of the year and he ended up injured once again.

Knowshon Moreno: Angain an injury plagued career and also had trouble with fumbles. Was actually doing really good for Miami until his latest injury struck and now is probably finished.

It's not even close if you want to talk about Running backs who amounted to nothing in the later rounds compared to running backs in the 1st round. There are 24 running backs in the hall of fame who were selected in the first round. That list will continue to grow with the likes of LT, AP Steven Jackson maybe, Marshawn Lynch maybe (I disagree) and potentially a few others I might be forgetting. I'm not sure how many 4th round running backs are in the hall.

I only brought up Jaylon Smith as having just as much potential if not more to be the drafts steal because you said if Myles Jack was fully recovered you would pick him. I thought it would only be fair that Jaylon gets the same treatment as Myles Jack if fully recovered. I'm not saying you have to pick Jaylon over Myles as your steal. I just wanted to support Jaylon as a possible steal on here asking for him to get the same respect and treatment.

Ias far as Jalen Ramsey is concerned I only brought up what others have stated publicly. That He Might Be Best Suited To Playing Safety IN The league. Maybe Dallas thought the same and if so Ezekiel Elliot would have the much bigger impact for the team.

Fun Fact: I wanted Jalen Ramsey over Ezekiel Elliot at first. I've since warmed up to the pick of Elliot and cannot be mad because Im buying his jersey and am super pumped for the upcoming season. I think he will do great things for a long time with his talent, our oline and our run first smash mouth mentality. And all those same Cowboys fans bashing the pick will be rooting and cheering like crazy when he takes the league by storm.

Edit: about the Madden ratings. I know they will change for rookies as the season goes along. I was just talking about out the gate. Dallas and Jacksonville should both have 2 players in the top 5. I've seen all four of those players ranked as the best player in the draft. Actually including Tunsil and Joey Bosa. Which is why they also made my top 5 with some ties. I don't think Wentz or Goff should sniff it. Just outside is where I would place them around 79 overall

[Ampking101]

This is true but as Deion Sanders himself so eloquently put it during the draft "Ramsey is one of the best defensive backs we have seen in years, how often does a running back taken in the first play out his first full season" (when comparing if Dallas should take Ramsey or Elliot with their pick, I'm paraphrasing here but the point stands and I only bring it up because apparently you take his opinion highly as you used him as an argument against Ramsey). Yes they all had potential just as Elliot has potential but the running backs I mentioned can't all be bad examples if they all failed. It doesn't matter if they were due to injury or not, there was still a factor that made them a bad draft pick that high, you can argue that point away if you want, the actuality is it turned out the way it did and that is what we have to base it on. Hell David Wilson, Donald Brown, Jahvid Best, Beanie Wells, Felix Jones, Rashard Mendenhall, Chris Johnson. Just because they are taken in the first doesn't mean automatic success and being taken in later rounds doesn't always mean failure. Also yes there are a lot more players who go in later rounds that don't amount to anything, but then again they weren't taken with the most valuable pick that the team had now were they? One round of running backs each year versus 6 rounds each year is going to have a lot higher failure rate.

My best friend is a Cowboy fan as well and he can't understand the logic of looking at his team objectively either. It was a high pick for a running back when history states that running backs taken in the top 5 have a high failure rate, I did not call him a bad pick, I did not say he would be a failure (which seems you are automatically implying I did). He was simply just taken high in the draft which means he was not the best pick of the draft, he was also not the worst pick in the draft. I would say that about any team who took him that high (when there are clearly players with more potential still on the board). Other factors apparently made them pick him that high (as some reports say they tried to trade down but the team trading wanted Elliot so they pulled the trigger and took him) which I understand; still doesn't change the fact that despite him being a top 10 talent; a RB at 4th overall is a suspect choice (that I'll admit yes could indeed pay off).

If you can't understand that point then I don't know what to tell you because you are arguing against a strawman as you haven't actually debated against my point that he probably would have slipped farther down the boards if Dallas hadn't had the 4th overall (as the other team wouldn't have felt the need to trade up in the off chance that Dallas was going to take him there). I will again repeat that I belive he is a strong pick up and will be a good player especially with the best oline in the league. It still doesn't make him the best pick in the draft with the other factors involved.

[Dwaresacksqb]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ampking101

This is true but as Deion Sanders himself so eloquently put it during the draft "Ramsey is one of the best defensive backs we have seen in years, how often does a running back taken in the first play out his first full season" (when comparing if Dallas should take Ramsey or Elliot with their pick, I'm paraphrasing here but the point stands and I only bring it up because apparently you take his opinion highly as you used him as an argument against Ramsey). Yes they all had potential just as Elliot has potential but the running backs I mentioned can't all be bad examples if they all failed. It doesn't matter if they were due to injury or not, there was still a factor that made them a bad draft pick that high, you can argue that point away if you want, the actuality is it turned out the way it did and that is what we have to base it on. Hell David Wilson, Donald Brown, Jahvid Best, Beanie Wells, Felix Jones, Rashard Mendenhall, Chris Johnson. Just because they are taken in the first doesn't mean automatic success and being taken in later rounds doesn't always mean failure. Also yes there are a lot more players who go in later rounds that don't amount to anything, but then again they weren't taken with the most valuable pick that the team had now were they? One round of running backs each year versus 6 rounds each year is going to have a lot higher failure rate. My best friend is a Cowboy fan as well and he can't understand the logic of looking at his team objectively either. It was a high pick for a running back when history states that running backs taken in the top 5 have a high failure rate, I did not call him a bad pick, I did not say he would be a failure (which seems you are automatically implying I did). He was simply just taken high in the draft which means he was not the best pick of the draft, he was also not the worst pick in the draft. I would say that about any team who took him that high (when there are clearly players with more potential still on the board). Other factors apparently made them pick him that high (as some reports say they tried to trade down but the team trading wanted Elliot so they pulled the trigger and took him) which I understand; still doesn't change the fact that despite him being a top 10 talent; a RB at 4th overall is a suspect choice (that I'll admit yes could indeed pay off). If you can't understand that point then I don't know what to tell you because you are arguing against a strawman as you haven't actually debated against my point that he probably would have slipped farther down the boards if Dallas hadn't had the 4th overall (as the other team wouldn't have felt the need to trade up in the off chance that Dallas was going to take him there). I will again repeat that I belive he is a strong pick up and will be a good player especially with the best oline in the league. It still doesn't make him the best pick in the draft with the other factors involved.

I thought we have been debating on many topics. I think i debated those 3 running backs you mentioned pretty fairly. You used two guys who showed great potential in the NFL who had injuries destroy their careers and one guy who put on so much weight because of a poor work habit he became a shell of his former self. I even said Ezekiel Elliot by all a counts will not be that guy. I debated with you whether a running back at 4 who enters a perfect situation and helps dallas achieve what they want to do on offense greatly was a better pick and more worthy pick than a player who Dallas might considered a safety. Dallas's own DB coach said that. So is a great running back a bigger reach for Dallas at 4 or a great safety? Neither are considered positions that should go that high without the rare exception. Ezekiel Elliot has been called that rare exception. Todd Gurley if not for his injury probably goes higher in the top ten and he was considered that rare exception. It's very possible Leanord Fornuete will go top five as well. I am not sure Ezekiel Elliot slides very far if Dallas doesn't take him at 4. Mock Drafts had him going anywhere from 4 all the way to 13. So who knows. We sure dont.

I think he could become the best pick in the draft because he is the most absolutely best fit for the team that picked him in the draft. I have yet to hear one person say someone other than Ezekiel Elliot is their pick for offensive rookie of the year. I have heard them say "we'll other than Zeke who is your pick" that's how great of a fit he is and I am translating that to a very fair pick for the pick of the draft. I respect your opinion and I'm not trying to force mine on yours. I love the debates we have had and I think you have made some great points as well.

[bjanko5]

Quote: Originally Posted by Dwaresacksqb

And Maddens score should reflect that. You don't count an injury when grading their abilities. I expect Jaylon Smith to be in the top 5 of highest overall rookies. My order would go like this. 1. Leramy Tunsil 2. Jaylon Smith T3. Ezekiel Elliot T3. Jalen Ramsey T5. Myles Jack T5 Joey Bosa Something like that. It's a given that some of those players will have the same overall so I threw in some ties. Edit: it's funny that Jacksonville and Dallas would get 2 players in the top five but that's just how this year's draft worked out. I've seen Jaylon Smith the number 1 ranked player and I've also seen Myles Jack the number 1 overall player by scouts. Madden shouldn't let their injuries and being selected in the 2nd round along with 2 franchises getting 2 in the top 5 affect that. If they do I would be dissapointed.

I could definitely see Tunsil having the highest rating. Off the field issues are the main reason he dropped, and while valid, aren't going to affect his ratings.