The mysterious art of defending

[iaxy]

Quote: Originally Posted by KG

It's just a different way to defend. When I play online I change my teammate control to aggressive and let them chase the ball while I play the passing lanes. My CPU defenders win plenty of challenges and it allows me to also concentrate on any off-the-ball runs going on too. It helps me keep my shape too. I've played enough FIFA over the years to get really tired of having to defend with all 10 outfield players. I'm not saying PES does it perfect but I'm assuming Matt defends that way because it's effective for him and he likes it.

Don't get me wrong - everyone is free to play whichever way they want. And kudos to players like Matt who have discovered this method.

Clearly it's a method which works, because I can see that the my AI controlled players do a good job of tracking.

All I am saying is that for me it is counterintuitive to purposely and consciously remove myself from the action and rely on the CPU to make a mistake. It's equivalent to just watch a game played by other players until the moment the CPU "decides" to make a mistake and then you take over with possession and control.

[ImmortalMindz]

Quote: Originally Posted by KG

It's just a different way to defend. When I play online I change my teammate control to aggressive and let them chase the ball while I play the passing lanes. My CPU defenders win plenty of challenges and it allows me to also concentrate on any off-the-ball runs going on too. It helps me keep my shape too. I've played enough FIFA over the years to get really tired of having to defend with all 10 outfield players. I'm not saying PES does it perfect but I'm assuming Matt defends that way because it's effective for him and he likes it.

This is really interesting to me because it was the most popular and most controversial topic in the FIFA beta forums. One of the biggest improvements this year to FIFA is the defensive AI - it's so much better than before and you can actually depend on your teammates to help and position themselves like they should. I loved it.

But with the rise in popularity of E-Sports and competitive gaming, loads of people were pissed about this and hated that the AI defending was so much better.

Personally I prefer a less automated system than what's in PES and I think FIFA has a better balance with its default defending system, but for me the highest priority is fun and realistically-balanced gameplay. So while I don't really get the fun and challenge of playing Matt's style, as long as it's single player then to each's own I say.

But I do think iaxy makes a very valid point in that in PES this year it's too difficult to influence play when you're defending and it can often feel like you're waiting on the CPU to make a mistake (which is usually a stupid low cross but that's another discussion ). It's not too bad on Professional but on Top Player and especially Superstar it's pretty frustrating.

And I think people are starting to catch on to this as more people are mentioning how few tackles they're actually having against the CPU. I looked at Matt's end-match game stats and saw that even with his style of defending, he was still only getting 5 or less tackles per game but averaging like 30 interceptions.

I get that match stats don't tell the full story, but I do think it indicates how difficult it is to get close to the CPU attackers, that the marking is too loose, and that it's too much about waiting for them to make that errant pass.

[KG]

Quote: Originally Posted by iaxy

Don't get me wrong - everyone is free to play whichever way they want. And Kudos to players like Matt who have discovered this method. Clearly this work, because I can see that the my AI controlled players do a good job of tracking. All I am saying is that for me it is counterintuitive to purposely and consciously remove yourself form the action and rely on the CPU to make a mistake.

I hear ya'. I like it because it reminds of playing IRL and/or Club/BAL. It makes me feel like I have a defensive assignment that I have to carry out. Plus it's the only way my team will ever put in bad challenges to actually get a card. Every year in FIFA CM I probably accumulate less than 10 yellows and maybe a red. This way of defending sees my CPU teammates put in the occassional poor challenge.

Quote: Originally Posted by ImmortalMindz

This is really interesting to me because it was the most popular and most controversial topic in the FIFA beta forums. One of the biggest improvements this year to FIFA is the defensive AI - it's so much better than before and you can actually depend on your teammates to help and position themselves like they should. I loved it. But with the rise in popularity of E-Sports and competitive gaming, loads of people were pissed about this and hated that the AI defending was so much better. Personally I prefer a less automated system than what's in PES and I think FIFA has a better balance with its default defending system, but for me the highest priority is fun and realistically-balanced gameplay. So while I don't really get the fun and challenge of playing Matt's style, as long as it's single player then to each's own I say. But I do think iaxy makes a very valid point in that in PES this year it's too difficult to influence play when you're defending and it can often feel like you're waiting on the CPU to make a mistake (which is usually a stupid low cross but that's another discussion ). It's not too bad on Professional but on Top Player and especially Superstar it's pretty frustrating. And I think people are starting to catch on to this as more people are mentioning how few tackles they're actually having against the CPU. I looked at Matt's end-match game stats and saw that even with his style of defending, he was still only getting 5 or less tackles per game but averaging like 30 interceptions. I get that match stats don't tell the full story, but I do think it indicates how difficult it is to get close to the CPU attackers, that the marking is too loose, and that it's too much about waiting for them to make that errant pass.

In the FIFA beta, did your teammates actually try to dispossess the attacker? For years that was my biggest beef with FIFA's 2nd defender pressure button. THey'd get close but never actually put in the challenge.

Yeah, I def agree that the stats are skewed. I checked Chelsea's last three matches and all three were ~2:1 tackles to interceptions. I think that's a testament to better defender awareness when it comes to passing lanes + better body position required by passers + Konami purposefully programming in passing error to get the completion % (a HUGE PES problem over the years).

Def agree on the eSports crowd influencing ALL sports games in bad way. I like playing online too but I'd wish they'd strive for realism first and make people adapt. If FIFA went for full SIM they'd still sell like crazy. The licenses and online modes are too strong not too.

[ImmortalMindz]

Quote: Originally Posted by KG

In the FIFA beta, did your teammates actually try to dispossess the attacker? For years that was my biggest beef with FIFA's 2nd defender pressure button. THey'd get close but never actually put in the challenge. Yeah, I def agree that the stats are skewed. I checked Chelsea's last three matches and all three were ~2:1 tackles to interceptions. I think that's a testament to better defender awareness when it comes to passing lanes + better body position required by passers + Konami purposefully programming in passing error to get the completion % (a HUGE PES problem over the years). Def agree on the eSports crowd influencing ALL sports games in bad way. I like playing online too but I'd wish they'd strive for realism first and make people adapt. If FIFA went for full SIM they'd still sell like crazy. The licenses and online modes are too strong not too.

To be honest, my memory is a little hazy. It's definitely not like PES where you can rely on the 2nd man pressure to always go for the tackle, but it certainly seemed upgraded from before. If anything, it was opposite to PES - a little too easy to defend against the CPU.

But because this was such a point of contention, this is one of those areas I'm curious how it will be in the final version. Lots of people argued that it lowered the skill gap. I tried to vocally push back, saying it increased the skill gap on the attacking side since creating chances was tougher.

Guess we'll see soon how EA responded.

[Matt10]

Quote: Originally Posted by iaxy

Don't get me wrong - everyone is free to play whichever way they want. And kudos to players like Matt who have discovered this method. Clearly it's a method which works, because I can see that the my AI controlled players do a good job of tracking. All I am saying is that for me it is counterintuitive to purposely and consciously remove myself from the action and rely on the CPU to make a mistake. It's equivalent to just watch a game played by other players until the moment the CPU "decides" to make a mistake and then you take over with possession and control.

I think it is a tribute to how much better the teammate's defending is. We have complained for years how FIFA and PES teammate defending has been. Where you have to control all 10 players. Now that it's better, why is it a negative to only aim to control one player? I definitely do not feel like I am taken out of the game at all. If anything, I'm paying attention more to passing lanes and recovering. I still player switch if I absolutely need to - which happens a lot actually because Ron Vlaar is slow as can be, but has great anticipation. I like that I will be held accountable if I secondary pressure too early, or too late, and pull my players out of position. Last night's stream that happened 3x in a 5-2 loss against Heracles as AZ. I kept holding the pressure too long, and then manually moved players - then just got sucked out completely. Vlaar was all over the place, my newbie makeshift RB (never again) was well exposed.

Like KG said though, it's just another way to defend. It's not about waiting for the CPU to make a mistake either. It's letting them play. It's a welcome addition this year that they do make human-like mistakes, but that's not the only way to be rewarded in defending. A simple shift back to the keeper, a switching of the field, a long ball over the top. We talk about wanting variety for years, and less 100% adherence to tactics, now we've got it. The fact that we can play different ways is another tribute to how much improvement there is in this year's version.

[Matt10]

Quote: Originally Posted by ImmortalMindz

This is really interesting to me because it was the most popular and most controversial topic in the FIFA beta forums. One of the biggest improvements this year to FIFA is the defensive AI - it's so much better than before and you can actually depend on your teammates to help and position themselves like they should. I loved it. But with the rise in popularity of E-Sports and competitive gaming, loads of people were pissed about this and hated that the AI defending was so much better. Personally I prefer a less automated system than what's in PES and I think FIFA has a better balance with its default defending system, but for me the highest priority is fun and realistically-balanced gameplay. So while I don't really get the fun and challenge of playing Matt's style, as long as it's single player then to each's own I say. But I do think iaxy makes a very valid point in that in PES this year it's too difficult to influence play when you're defending and it can often feel like you're waiting on the CPU to make a mistake (which is usually a stupid low cross but that's another discussion ). It's not too bad on Professional but on Top Player and especially Superstar it's pretty frustrating. And I think people are starting to catch on to this as more people are mentioning how few tackles they're actually having against the CPU. I looked at Matt's end-match game stats and saw that even with his style of defending, he was still only getting 5 or less tackles per game but averaging like 30 interceptions. I get that match stats don't tell the full story, but I do think it indicates how difficult it is to get close to the CPU attackers, that the marking is too loose, and that it's too much about waiting for them to make that errant pass.

Regarding the tackling, I think it's simply a data entry error of what the game determines a tackle. A simple test would be to go and tackle the CPU and pause to view the stats.

I did this test yesterday, tackled the CPU multiple times on Regular difficulty, and it seemed that the only tackles that were determined were in 1v1 situations where I double tapped tackle and also sliding tackle. I didn't get to test for too long though, but will try to record it on higher difficulties to make sure there is no discrepancy.

[PAPERNUT]

Quote: Originally Posted by Matt10

Regarding the tackling, I think it's simply a data entry error of what the game determines a tackle. A simple test would be to go and tackle the CPU and pause to view the stats. I did this test yesterday, tackled the CPU multiple times on Regular difficulty, and it seemed that the only tackles that were determined were in 1v1 situations where I double tapped tackle and also sliding tackle. I didn't get to test for too long though, but will try to record it on higher difficulties to make sure there is no discrepancy.

Yep. This has been a bug since PES17.

One thing I love from 19 is the Offense tactic "Defense". Finally it is working to keep a DMF from running forward on attack. I want my enforcer in place at all times near my back line for support and nothing was more frustrating in both PES and FIFA of past seeing my DMF surge to goal every possession even though set to not do so.

[ImmortalMindz]

Quote: Originally Posted by Matt10

Regarding the tackling, I think it's simply a data entry error of what the game determines a tackle. A simple test would be to go and tackle the CPU and pause to view the stats. I did this test yesterday, tackled the CPU multiple times on Regular difficulty, and it seemed that the only tackles that were determined were in 1v1 situations where I double tapped tackle and also sliding tackle. I didn't get to test for too long though, but will try to record it on higher difficulties to make sure there is no discrepancy.

Even if there is a data error, it's very slight. I'm finishing games on Superstar against the CPU when I will win, keeping the CPU to 1 goal or less, finishing with around 30 interceptions and 2 tackles. Even if those stats are off, they aren't off by that much, and is still indicative of the greater issue.

Regardless of the stats, I've yet to experience for myself or see anyone else in gameplay videos be able to tackle the CPU consistently, especially on Top Player or above. There's simply way too much space afforded in the marking and CPU teams refuse to take you on in the dribble, which is why so many are complaining that the lower quality teams can and do play tiki taka in the final third.

Play on the higher difficulties and when you don't have possession it can feel like you're watching the CPU play a passing simulator instead of a balanced football game.