The few remaining issues I have with the game as a grappler

[Newaza Expert]

First and foremost I'd like to address the issue of engaging in the clinch and specifically single collar because it's a neutral position with many options to quickly escape and transition from; I find that the denial window is a bit generous while it's easy to just sit on pre-deny. You can pre-deny the clinch entry and stuff takedowns simultaneously which in some cases makes it nearly impossible to grapple or attack in a grappling manner even with a great wrestler or Jiu-Jitsu guy.

When your grappling attempts fail you lose stamina, as you should, but high volume striking seems to not come with much of a stamina penalty which skews the balance a bit in favor of that; combine that with the current block breaking strategy and the special combos that people throw and you have even more of a balancing problem.

Another issue I have with stamina is that some guys just want to stall and slowly kill your stamina by laying on top of you in guard throwing body punches; there's really no incentive to throw head punches on top of guard unless you're postured up because body punches seem to do the same damage while they drain stamina. I'll try to mount some kind of an offense or sweep from my guard only to have it denied because my opponent is only focused on denials and spamming body punches to drain stamina and build grappling advantage.

Another issue I have is the massive risk you take when going for submissions; I get powerbombed probably 5 or 6 times on average whenever I play a match in ranked because I attempt armbars and triangles from my guard which failed; this gives them side mount and allows them to just stand right back up while a lot of the other failed submissions, for some bizarre reason, seem to always result in your opponent on top of you in side mount, full mount, kesa, back side mount, or north-south. The triangle to armbar submission chain also doesn't exist anymore even for elite Jiu-Jitsu guys like Maia, Werdum, Gracie, and Souza; I know Nate Diaz and Brian Ortega for example still have it but that's about it.

Submissions can be very, very difficult to pull off and sometimes they seem next to impossible because of the nerfs so the risk I would say far outweighs the reward except with the 1 or 2-gate submissions which have also been greatly nerfed. The Imanari roll heel hook, one of my favorite submissions in mixed martial arts, was made pretty much useless and even if you somehow manage to successfully attempt that heel hook you now have to advance 4 gates instead of 2 while if you fail you're either giving up full mount or you're allowing your opponent right back up. Very high risk, with very little chance of a significant reward. The Imanari roll was also a way to effectively "pull guard" before the range nerf.

And all of this is why, I think, there aren't any Jiu-Jitsu guys or submission specialists listed as anyone's favorite fighter in the top 100 of ranked with maybe one or two exceptions. I remember recently I was the only guy in the top 100 with Ortega as my favorite fighter despite the fact that he's an absolute beast while my other favorite fighters(submission specialists) weren't anyone's favorites either. This indicates, not just personal preference, but a strong balancing issue in competitive play which I think needs to be addressed.

I love the game and all the improvements which have been made but there's still more room for input and updates to enhance the experience and balance out the different playstyles. I understand a lot of people just want to stand and bang with McGregor, and that's fine, but there's should be very balanced and fair ways to counter that with grappling.

[Papadoc60]

1. Clinch denial windows need to be smaller

2. Single collar break is still too fast in my opinion

3. Submissions are not very effective ways to finish fights unless you have a fighter with switch subs and stamina does not seem to impact them as much as it should

4. The regular takedowns still feel a bit weak and the undeniable takedowns are pretty useless or never appear in fights that are competitive

5. You should not be able to deny takedown and clinch at the same time

6. Over under clinch against the cage needs fixing, the denial window is massive

7. Stamina drain on TDS could be based on how well you set up the shot ( Zhunter mentioned this )

Some of these you already said, but I feel like these things would round out grappling or would at least be worth looking into.

[Good Grappler]

Good post. Paragraph #1 and #2 are perfectly written and I agree 100%. Those two points are undeniably the two biggest problems with the grappling.

To re iterate for anyone reading this, those two biggest problems are

1) The clinch denial window is too generous.
2) The stamina penalty for failed takedown attempts is disproportionately harsh, when compared to the penalty for striking output.

It was so well written I see no need to elaborate, but I’m gonna expand on point #2 cause it’s just such a huge problem.

Standard double legs and single legs, especially with WRESTLERS like DC, Colby Covington or Corey Anderson, should NOT put you at a stamina disadvantage. Hell, it shouldn’t cost more stamina than missing a leg kick. In fact, I’d even argue that failing takedown attempts should work to your ADVANTAGE in the stamina dep’t, if you’re using a wrestler with superior grapple stamina. I mean, if I have 94 grapple stamina and my opponent has 88, shouldn’t they gas more than me from stuffing my shots?

As it stands, just one failed double leg with DC is enough to put you at an immediate, unrecoverable stamina disadvantage. That’s just wrong.

Look at Cain vs JDS... Cain was shooting after every combo. JDS would defend the takedown, but he was getting forced to defend the takedowns and gassed. I’m watching Corey Anderson vs Glover Teixera right now, and Corey was shooting TDs early in the fight just to force Glover to defend. In what universe does DC gas himself by shooting takedowns, while his opponent throws constant strikes and has more stamina?

Proposed solutions to unfair stamina penalties:

1. Fighters with superior wrestling and grapple stamina can gain a stamina advantage by making their opponent defend standard takedowns. This way, relentlessly grinding your opponent by forcing them to defend wrestling can be a thing. Plenty of good Wrestlers don’t mind their opponent stuffing their takedowns. They’re well-conditioned for wrestling, and are happy to force their opponent to wrestle by defending TDs, knowing they’ll tire eventually. See Cain vs JDS, Colby vs RDA, GSP vs Penn 2. If Cain vs JDS happened in EA UFC 3, Cain would be limping around gassed from the failed TD attempts by round 2.

2. Incentivize knees and frames to counter takedowns. In cases where you have inferior grapple stamina to your opponent, you can avoid getting grinded and losing stamina by *framing or countering with knees. Make knees a pre-set, reliable outcome for double legs, similar to the way ducking consistently avoids headkicks. One knee could change the fight, so good wrestlers couldn’t just spam double legs for a stamina advantage. At the same time, throwing a knee would leave you vulnerable to a straight punch or overhand, so you couldn’t spam the knees either.

You could still deny/sprawl takedowns the normal way, but if your opponent has superior wrestling and grapple stamina, you’ll be better off framing or countering with a knee. Because if your opponent is just relentlessly making you defend takedowns with the intent tiring you out, standard denials (RT down, same as it is now) will tire YOU more than them (if they have superior grapple stamina and a strong wrestling base).

*3. Add framing mechanic. Implement it in the same way as the “fast retreat” mechanic (RB/RT), or “push” mechanic (block + lead uppercut). Use framing immediately after striking to stifle clinch or takedown attempts. The window would be ridiculously small, but if done correctly, framing would spare bad grapplers from being grinded by wrestlers like Colby with relentless TD attempts. However, it would leave you more vulnerable to punches, and it wouldn’t save you if your back is to the cage. A frame would be a fascinating addition; it could allow for the fighter shooting the TD to abandon the TD, land a punch then re-shoot, etc.

4. Allow fake TDs, and punish ill-timed denialswith sprawl animations and/or stamina penalties. Players shouldn’t just be able to press RT+down without any penalty, yet if their opponent shoots, they get a massive stamina advantage. Simply pressing the takedown defense input should cause a reaction every time, and that reaction should leave you vulnerable to an uppercut or knee. I mean, fake TD into a flying knee should be a thing.

[FlaccoNumba5]

Innnnnnn

Hopefully they’ll pay attention now

[FlaccoNumba5]

Quote: Originally Posted by Good Grappler

Good post. Paragraph #1 and #2 are perfectly written and I agree 100%. Those two points are undeniably the two biggest problems with the grappling. To re iterate for anyone reading this, those two biggest problems are 1) The clinch denial window is too generous. 2) The stamina penalty for failed takedown attempts is disproportionately harsh, when compared to the penalty for striking output. It was so well written I see no need to elaborate, but I’ll just briefly touch on point #2. Failed takedown attempts should NOT have such a drastic impact on stamina. Just one failed double leg with DC is enough to put you at an immediate, unrecoverable stamina disadvantage. That’s just wrong. Only power takedowns/slams should have such a major penalty. Standard double legs and single legs, especially with WRESTLERS like DC, Colvy Covington or Corey Anderson, shouldn’t cost more stamina than missing a leg kick. In fact, I’d even argue that failing takedown attempts should work to your ADVANTAGE in the stamina dep’t, if you’re using a wrestler with superior grapple stamina. I mean, if I have 94 grapple stamina and my opponent has 88, shouldn’t they gas more than me from stuffing my shots? Look at Cain vs JDS... Cain was shooting after every combo. JDS would defend the takedown, but he was getting forced to defend the takedowns and gassed. I’m watching Corey Anderson vs Glover Teixera right now, and Corey was shooting TDs early in the fight just to force Glover to defend. In what universe does DC gas himself by shooting takedowns, while his opponent throws constant strikes and has more stamina? Proposed solutions to unfair stamina penalties: 1. Wrestlers with superior grapple stamina to their opponent can gain a stamina advantage by making their opponent defend standard takedowns. 2. Failed power takedowns receive harsh stamina penalties, while standard takedowns receive far less harsh penalties than they currently do in the game. 3. Incentivize knees and frames to counter takedowns. In cases where you have inferior grapple stamina to your opponent, you can avoid getting grinded and losing stamina by *framing or countering with knees. Make knees a pre-set, reliable outcome for double legs, similar to the way ducking consistently avoids headkicks. One knee could change the fight, so good wrestlers couldn’t just spam double legs for a stamina advantage. At the same time, throwing a knee would leave you vulnerable to a straight punch or overhand, so you couldn’t spam the knees either. *4. Add framing mechanic. Implement it in the same way as the “fast retreat” mechanic (RB/RT), or “push” mechanic (block + lead uppercut). Use framing immediately after striking to stifle clinch or takedown attempts. The window would be ridiculously small, but if done correctly, it would spare bad grapplers from being grinded by wrestlers like Colby with relentless TD attempts. However, it would leave you more vulnerable to punches, and it wouldn’t save you if your back is to the cage. A frame would be a fascinating addition; it could allow for the fighter shooting the TD to abandon the TD, land a punch then re-shoot, etc. 5. Allow fake TDs, and punish denials with sprawls. Players shouldn’t just be able to press RT+down without any penalty, yet if their opponent shoots, they get a massive stamina advantage. Simply pressing the takedown defense input should cause a reaction every time, and that reaction should leave you vulnerable to an uppercut or knee. I mean, fake TD into a flying knee should be a thing.

At first I thought your idea would be a bit too much, but it sounds great! Especially 1-2 I feel like 3 is adding too much honestly we’re running out of buttons lol. Also for 5 the same thing should be present for clinch denials

[FlaccoNumba5]

I really wanna know their thought process on why you can deny clinch and TDS at the same time. It wasn’t like that in the last game so maybe it’s an oversight here

[Good Grappler]

I edited my post a little flacca since you first replied, but I agree the framing is a stretch. Only reason I included it is because if denying takedowns (RT+down) gasses the defender more than the shooter (assuming shooter has superior grapple stam and wrestling base), there has to be some stamina efficient alternative for the defender. Hence my suggestion of framing or counter knees.

I feel like if they can add a “push” mechanic, or a “fast retreat with hand extended” mechanic, they could add a frame mehanic. Basically just the lead arm extends outward, bent at the elbow, using the forearm as a “shield” against an opponent as they shoot the takedown. The “frame” or “shield” would keep distance between you and your opponent, without ever needing to sprawl or fight the takedown.

So in other words, it would be a stamina efficient way to avoid TDs, if your grapple stamina is inferior to your opponent’s. Otherwise, my suggestion of takedowns gassing the defender (if their grapple stam and wrestling base is superior) would cause takedowns to be OP.

[MacGowan]

There's so much of the grappling that seem like it was just cobbled together at last minute. the meters that fill all the way up and then he passes your guard. the meters that fill twice. the strikes you can't throw from a lot of positions because they just didn't add them. The fact you can't move your fighter on the ground, that you do old man shuffle steps in the clinch. the fact you can't just jump on someone you rocked/knocked down.

It all just baffles me. Hopefully the community is making enough noise that they're looking into this. real life grappling is not inherently boring to watch, it is in this game.

edit:


Genuine question, why are they same size in the ground grappling, but not in the clinch grappling?
(ripped from Ricky J Sports videos.)