I swear the full guard submissive triangle subbmission is the Most OP there is.

[manliest_Man]

Not only is it as hard to block it as the broken rubber guard transition, it also finishes the fight instantly with both fighters having 100% stamina.

Specifically reffering to Demian Maia and Jackare Suza, finishing GSP and Rockhold with eas on the first min of the fight with em.

The gates appear too fast, despite both having 100% stamina and the submission spammer having spamemd it for 3-4 times in a row.

I hope it gets a nerf in the next patch. Stamina plays no part in how easy it is to submit someone with it.

Second gate switches to an armbar and the fight is over with 3 gates.

[Dave_S]

There is a few submissions like that.

[Shogun474]

I have been subbed 4 times by the triangle today so i must agree. So quick to apply and has such a tiny denial window.

[Ksearyback]

Quote: Originally Posted by manliest_Man

Not only is it as hard to block it as the broken rubber guard transition, it also finishes the fight instantly with both fighters having 100% stamina. Specifically reffering to Demian Maia and Jackare Suza, finishing GSP and Rockhold with eas on the first min of the fight with em. The gates appear too fast, despite both having 100% stamina and the submission spammer having spamemd it for 3-4 times in a row. I hope it gets a nerf in the next patch. Stamina plays no part in how easy it is to submit someone with it. Second gate switches to an armbar and the fight is over with 3 gates.

Just trying to be more realistic, I like the concern but disagree with the fix.

Honestly, stamina shouldn't really be all that directly linked to submission efficacy. Now on the flip side, I think submissions should be harder to initiate, and stamina SHOULD play a role in the initiation/denial battle.

I hope that makes sense. And just to make this more clear, if Maia or Jacare got anyone in a submission, it's getting finished even if it's in the beginning of a fight. However, in mma, it's not so easy to get it set up and locked in... And the delta in stamina between the two contestants should play a factor in the set up stage (just not the escape stage).

So maybe expand the denial window and place emphasis on how big the denial window is based on stamina. But I think once locked in, you should be toast against guys like that

[Boiler569]

It SHOULD be a very dangerous place to be against ppl like Souza/Werdum/etc

Especially with 'guard specialist' perk etc

but I do agree that this sub (and even subs in general) could use a bit more nuance or be a bit more dynamic.

and also, that stamina should play a bigger role in subs and sub denials, as KSeary stated

As for RUBBER GUARD --- that thing is just broken man lol --- need to increase the denial window by at least 25% --- but ALSO make it a bit more difficult to ESCAPE once you're actually in it.

Right now, way too easy to apply rubber guard; but way too easy to escape it too

[Ksearyback]

Quote: Originally Posted by Boiler569

It SHOULD be a very dangerous place to be against ppl like Souza/Werdum/etc Especially with 'guard specialist' perk etc but I do agree that this sub (and even subs in general) could use a bit more nuance or be a bit more dynamic. and also, that stamina should play a bigger role in subs and sub denials, as KSeary stated As for RUBBER GUARD --- that thing is just broken man lol --- need to increase the denial window by at least 25% --- but ALSO make it a bit more difficult to ESCAPE once you're actually in it. Right now, way too easy to apply rubber guard; but way too easy to escape it too

So much yes about this.

I really like the idea of talking to people who grapple (and I'm assuming they already do, but maybe some who also play a lot like me, Haz, Chia off the top of my head, though there are likely others out there lurking who are also higher belt jiu jitsu players).

My simple suggestion, aside from an overhaul, would be:
- Make it easier to deny submissions
- Rather than a submission block having three outcomes (block, reverse, successful attempt), I'd like to see a 4th outcome which is that you are blocked and lost position (different from a reversal where maybe your opponent regains a guard of some kind).
- The delta between the two fighters stamina should determine the adjusted window from whatever the baseline is (specific to the difficulty of the submission set up)
- Once you actually lock in a submission, stats and perks (and again, the delta in stats between two characters) will determine gate quickness

** Submissions are not easy to set up, but for the very high level guys, if you give them that opening you should be pretty much toast unless you do so thing miraculous. This example is akin to Jacare ALREADY having an arm triangle set up, or Maia ALREADY having the dig under your neck for a rear naked choke. So don't confuse this with saying they should easily get the submission position, I'm not. I would like to see this game make it harder to obtain submissions (and rubber guard to Boiler's point), but then make them more powerful once caught.**

[Morgan Monkman]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ksearyback

So much yes about this. I really like the idea of talking to people who grapple (and I'm assuming they already do, but maybe some who also play a lot like me, Haz, Chia off the top of my head, though there are likely others out there lurking who are also higher belt jiu jitsu players). My simple suggestion, aside from an overhaul, would be: - Make it easier to deny submissions - Rather than a submission block having three outcomes (block, reverse, successful attempt), I'd like to see a 4th outcome which is that you are blocked and lost position (different from a reversal where maybe your opponent regains a guard of some kind). - The delta between the two fighters stamina should determine the adjusted window from whatever the baseline is (specific to the difficulty of the submission set up) - Once you actually lock in a submission, stats and perks (and again, the delta in stats between two characters) will determine gate quickness ** Submissions are not easy to set up, but for the very high level guys, if you give them that opening you should be pretty much toast unless you do so thing miraculous. This example is akin to Jacare ALREADY having an arm triangle set up, or Maia ALREADY having the dig under your neck for a rear naked choke. So don't confuse this with saying they should easily get the submission position, I'm not. I would like to see this game make it harder to obtain submissions (and rubber guard to Boiler's point), but then make them more powerful once caught.**

Baneil Daruish vs Michael Chiesa is a prime example, Baneil probably beats CHieasa 9 times out 10 in a Jits match but he got cocky in their mma fight and let chieasa get his back with a rear naked, even he couldnt escape that.

Or Cain Velasquez getting subbed by werdum.

you let these high level guys get your neck or limbs and most of the time its over.

[Bigg Cee]

I LOVE THEM!!!

I have pulled off some crazy subs at late times with these different green gate setups. They don't need to be touched or nerfed at all, all you have to do is just hit then green hate before your oppenent does.