UNC Football Player Accused Of Rape.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Careful. By mentioning what you see with your own eyes on a regular basis you're probably going to be accused of all sorts of heinous character flaws.

Nah, I wouldn't call you not knowing what the word "predatory" means to be a character flaw.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Can we start focusing discussions of rape where it belongs, on changing male behavior and male thinking?

Not going to bother to teach the daughters anything about responsible behavior at all eh?

At least maybe what the word "rape" means as opposed to how it seems to frequently be used. "Regret" does not equal rape in the minds of any reasonable person.

And that pretty much leaves your quote as being flat out full of crap afaic.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Logan

Nah, I wouldn't call you not knowing what the word "predatory" means to be a character flaw.

I used it exactly the way I meant it: "seeking to exploit or oppress others"

My emphasis being on the "exploit" element which (with the "or" in the definition) does not require any oppression to be present to be accurate.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

To hedge and fudge and say soft no/hard no, or put the onus on the riskiness of the behavior of the woman is basically creating a pathway to blaming her for it in the end. We need to be clear that the rapist is to blame, regardless of telling your daughter to be careful of the risk involved.

Not picking on you here, I'm strictly using your word choice to illustrate a point.

A lot of what happens is not about "blaming" the victim, it's about defining the terms. To go right back to a few posts earlier: regret <> rape

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Not going to bother to teach the daughters anything about responsible behavior at all eh?

It's not an either/or situation. Parents should teach their sons to know when to back off, and should teach their daughters how to avoid putting themselves situations where they lose control of what happens.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Logan

Nah, I wouldn't call you not knowing what the word "predatory" means to be a character flaw.

Jon doesn't need help defending his position, but I will state that predatory isnt a bad descriptor for a lot of these girls. But maybe not for the reason you are thinking.

In my small little town we had an incident recently exemplifies it brilliantly.
Guy (FB Player with D1 offer) dumps girl. Guy starts dating girl's friend.
Girl TEXTS guy: U better not be seeing that ho.
Guy affirms and original girl friend responds: "If I so much as see yall walking together I will call the police and the newspaper and cry rape on your ass"
"Bitch you crazy we aint never slept together" She responds "Who you think they gonna believe ? THE WOMAN. You aint never getting rid of me. If you play for the Panthers Ill be getting half"

The guy screen-shot all that and posted it to Instagram or snap chat story or some social media platform I dont use. It made big waves in our sleepy little small town ending with the girl eventually being kicked out of school after 3 or 4 more crazy twists and turns.

So fast forward to the next weekend and 4 or 5 of my son's friends were at the house hanging out in our gameroom. This story comes up. None of them are surprised and say its their biggest fear about hooking up. Hearing them describe it, it reminded me of the late 80s early 90s AIDS boogey men. (You know french kisses spread AIDs 100%, holding hands might) I even hear that their is a lyric "cry rape and cash checks"...

So while I find it 100% indefensible for a guy to ever take advantage of any female, I think there is also a strong contingent of females who will pull the rape card out very quickly.

Now I dont think that is the scenario that Jon referenced as predatory, but I think that element has to be part of a comprehensive conversation as well.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Not going to bother to teach the daughters anything about responsible behavior at all eh?

At least maybe what the word "rape" means as opposed to how it seems to frequently be used. "Regret" does not equal rape in the minds of any reasonable person.

And that pretty much leaves your quote as being flat out full of crap afaic.

As I noted earlier in the thread, she will be taught that "no means no" and that if she is raped, it is not her fault.

She will also be taught that there are shit-heads out there that will not respect "no means no" and there are ways to reduce her risk of being in a bad situation.

Finally, she will also be taught that rape is a very serious accusation, and false accusations are not OK and damage the efforts to combat rape.

But I will reiterate that while a woman may put herself at risk by getting drunk at a party around a bunch of horny guys, that is not a crime. Rape is a crime, and the crime is the thing we need to focus on. If we spent as much time counseling our young men how to act around women as we do counseling young women about the risk of drinking, being out late alone, wearing sexy clothing, etc. we'd have less incidence of rape.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Kodos

It's not an either/or situation. Parents should teach their sons to know when to back off, and should teach their daughters how to avoid putting themselves situations where they lose control of what happens.

While I appreciate your relatively moderate tone, I'm still not entirely comfortable with the notion that there is such a frequent "loss of control". I firmly believe that there is every bit of intent on the female's part through many of the acts in question.

On the grander scale, it seems (generally, not you specifically) that there is in incredibly paternalistic tone that goes on with a lot of this stuff. Like there's an assumption that girls are somehow less capable of intent.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

While I appreciate your relatively moderate tone, I'm still not entirely comfortable with the notion that there is such a frequent "loss of control". I firmly believe that there is every bit of intent on the female's part through many of the acts in question.

On the grander scale, it seems (generally, not you specifically) that there is in incredibly paternalistic tone that goes on with a lot of this stuff. Like there's an assumption that girls are somehow less capable of intent.

So rape doesn't happen? All accusations of rape in drunk-sex situation are simply the girl changing her mind after the fact?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

So rape doesn't happen? All accusations of rape in drunk-sex situation are simply the girl changing her mind after the fact?

Tsk, tsk.

Not only did I not say that, I believe I specifically said the contrary up the thread a ways. "All" hardly ever stands up to any challenge.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Tsk, tsk.

Not only did I not say that, I believe I specifically said the contrary up the thread a ways. "All" hardly ever stands up to any challenge.

Nor did I neglect to say that I would teach my daughter how to reduce her risk of being in bad situations that could lead to rape, but you seemed to miss that in your response above.

Can you clarify what you mean by:

...I'm still not entirely comfortable with the notion that there is such a frequent "loss of control". I firmly believe that there is every bit of intent on the female's part through many of the acts in question.

If I'm reading this correctly, I'm not sure you're really that far off from what most of us are acknowledging. There is a gray area that happens with drunk hook-ups regarding consent. I would hope you would agree that someone should not engage in sex with someone that's passed-out. I would also hope you'd agree that a drunk girl in a room alone with a horny guy that says "no" is a victim of rape if he still forces himself on her.

But the whole "I was totally drunk last night and you took advantage of me" thing when the person in question didn't clearly say "no" - yeah, that's a tough one with a lot of gray area.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

I even hear that their is a lyric "cry rape and cash checks"...

For whatever it's worth, Google (thankfully) returns nothing on those lyrics.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

I would hope you would agree that someone should not engage in sex with someone that's passed-out.

Correct, that's an obvious no-no.

I would also hope you'd agree that a drunk girl in a room alone with a horny guy that says "no" is a victim of rape if he still forces himself on her.

As phrased, we're still on the same page

But the whole "I was totally drunk last night and you took advantage of me" thing when the person in question didn't clearly say "no" - yeah, that's a tough one with a lot of gray area.

As phrased, I don't see as much gray as some here seem to. But that's in the very phrasing/description as much as anything perhaps.

As worded here, that's not "gray" to me, that's "sellers remorse". And I believe that's incredibly common. And that's not even counting (since it's such a tiny percentage of the total number of allegations) the complete set-up from the get-go situations that occur with higher profile scenarios.

[thesloppy]

I don't have kids, so I don't really have any clue what I'm talking about, but listening to this particular discussion, and it's the public/national conversation that goes along with it, I feel like among all the planned future parental discussions about what constitute rape and/or consent kind of fail to address an elephant in the room: quality of sex. If I DID have a kid, I think I'd poor a lot more time and effort into explaining the difference between good sex and bad sex, and how setting bad bahavioral patterns early in life will dictate a future of dysfunction. Chasing a questionable partner under questionable circumstances is only going to result in questionable sex. Culturally drunk, sloppy, party sex is presented to young people as the best kind of sex (and/or the only kind of sex they should be having), and while keeping the discussion focused on the topic of consent in questionable situations is noble and necessary in today's climate, it doesn't do much to move the cultural needle away from "binge drinking + sloppy sex = fun".

[muns]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

But the whole "I was totally drunk last night and you took advantage of me" thing when the person in question didn't clearly say "no" - yeah, that's a tough one with a lot of gray area.

On a college campus now, even if there isn't a clear "no", the guy or whoever still needs to get consent. So if he doesn't get consent, a lack of a "no" is still considered a violation of whatever sexual assault policy because there wasn't a clear yes.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

Chasing a questionable partner under questionable circumstances is only going to result in questionable sex.

I'll give you "probably" on that one maybe, but can't sign off 100%.

There was this one time ... but I digress.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by muns

On a college campus now, even if there isn't a clear "no", the guy or whoever still needs to get consent. So if he doesn't get consent, a lack of a "no" is still considered a violation of whatever sexual assault policy because there wasn't a clear yes.

Yeah, and that's probably the policy they need to enforce. Caution in those circumstances would also be my advice to my kids.

But taking away the actual policies for a second, I think that the reality of those situations is they are not clear-cut. If someone is giving clear signs they're into it at the time (but doesn't explicitly say "yes, I want to have sex with you") and then they change their mind afterward and say "I was too drunk to give consent" - that's a really tough one for the other person.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Yeah, and that's probably the policy they need to enforce. Caution in those circumstances would also be my advice to my kids.

But taking away the actual policies for a second, I think that the reality of those situations is they are not clear-cut. If someone is giving clear signs they're into it at the time (but doesn't explicitly say "yes, I want to have sex with you") and then they change their mind afterward and say "I was too drunk to give consent" - that's a really tough one for the other person.

Right. And doesn't consent go both ways?
I mean giggle, snicker but...who is to say the guy gave consent.
Do we start to juedge based on whose apartment/bed/vehicle they were in.

I mean I think (or at least hope) we have all had situations where the female is the initiator. (Exception of course for folsk not interested in women, regardless of their gender) SO if Jack and Diane are drunk and stagger back home for sloppy hook up. Does it come down to who is on top? Im not trying to be crass, but it isnt as cut and dried as "she was drunk. if they have sex boy raped her because she didnt consent"
It could just as easily be reversed.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

It could just as easily be reversed.

Shame on you, you misogynistic pig, for not toeing the victim culture party line.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

Right. And doesn't consent go both ways?
I mean giggle, snicker but...who is to say the guy gave consent.
Do we start to juedge based on whose apartment/bed/vehicle they were in.

I mean I think (or at least hope) we have all had situations where the female is the initiator. (Exception of course for folsk not interested in women, regardless of their gender) SO if Jack and Diane are drunk and stagger back home for sloppy hook up. Does it come down to who is on top? Im not trying to be crass, but it isnt as cut and dried as "she was drunk. if they have sex boy raped her because she didnt consent"
It could just as easily be reversed.

Yeah, I think part of the contention with this issue is that culturally we seem to be currently railing against double standards dealing with sexuality and/or gender, but reality/statistics/biology suggest that a double standard is probably necessary in regards to forced intercourse. Personally, while I feel it may not be entirely fair to put the burden of consent entirely in the man's court, there's a million other issues of inequality that I happily ignore and/or profit from on a daily basis that make it easy for me to give women a collective pass regarding the double standard for legal sexual consent.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

Right. And doesn't consent go both ways?
I mean giggle, snicker but...who is to say the guy gave consent.
Do we start to juedge based on whose apartment/bed/vehicle they were in.

I mean I think (or at least hope) we have all had situations where the female is the initiator. (Exception of course for folsk not interested in women, regardless of their gender) SO if Jack and Diane are drunk and stagger back home for sloppy hook up. Does it come down to who is on top? Im not trying to be crass, but it isnt as cut and dried as "she was drunk. if they have sex boy raped her because she didnt consent"
It could just as easily be reversed.

I'm sure muns can clarify, but I believe the new campus rules require both parties to express consent. In practice I think we generally assume that the guy wants it and doesn't have to say it out loud, but the reality is that's not always the case.

In your example I think you're asking the wrong question. The question is which party believes they did not grant consent, and thus was violated in some way? Maybe in some cases when they're sloppy drunk it's both? In which case call it a draw I suppose. They can be drunk and grant consent, especially if with the new campus policies this is now the standard and kids are aware they're supposed to express this clearly (though of course in practice many will probably skip this step). The issues arise when they are drunk and consent isn't expressed clearly. And yes, this is where things get very tricky if the behavior doesn't say "no" and the person accused isn't forcing themselves on the other.

I get why the campus rules call for clear expression of consent to draw a line in the sand in these situations, and to be on the safe side the students should follow this (even if it leads to less drunken hook-ups), but I have a much harder time finding the accused in a situation like this to be in the wrong.