So This Texas Judge

[King of New York]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

And watch plenty of other well-respected pediatricians on video, and they'll tell you the exact opposite.

1) Who are these well-respected pediatricians, exactly?

2) Even if they exist, they are wrong.

Beating kids as an acceptable method of discipline is right up there with slavery, Jim Crow laws, burning witches, thinking that the sun goes around the earth and that the earth does not move, and a whole host of other beliefs and activities that, at one point in history, seemed okay to the majority of people. And then some people started to figure out that they were not okay; and then more and more people came to accept that they were not okay; and then most people came to understand that they were not okay. Right now, we are sort of at the tipping point, where the number of those who think that beating children is okay, and the number of those who disagree, is about even.

I have no doubt that in 100 years, people will look back at how long we tolerated this practice and shake their heads in disbelief, the same way that we shake our heads at our ancestors and some of what they did and thought.

[molson]

In the 1950's an abused wife or child might go to the police and be brushed aside. "why are they just coming in now if they've gone through this for so long? Are they just mad, trying to get someone in trouble? This is a family matter between you and your husband or father."

It's all part of the power plays of abuse. Nobody will believe you. They'll blame you. It's your fault. This is exactly why the vast majority of abuse victims never come forward, and why batterers know they can get away with it.

[Subby]

It's not as bad as it looks.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Do these women ever make the correlation between abuse like this and the high rate of violence in the black community?

I can only speak to my personal experience and to what I saw, but I did grow up in the 'hood and I do have a fair number of childhood friends who are in prison or dead, but I also have a fair number who are productive citizens, and of those, I can say this much definitively:

There is a high correlation between loving parents who spanked appropriately and those who became productive citizens. In all but one case, though, of the ones in prison or dead, one of these two things was true:

1. They received little/no discipline whatsoever, definitely no spankings. I have specific recollections of three dudes in particular who always bragged about not getting whipped, and made fun of me and others when meeting Mrs. Pickett's ruler or the principal's paddle. "At least I ain't gonna get it again tonight like you is, Ben!"
2. They were either confirmed to have been abused, or it was obvious even to me as a kid that they were abused. (The dude whose criminal record I posted in another thread fairly recently fits into this category.)

The one exception was Jerome. When Jerome was a teenager, one of his closest friends said of him (and it's oft-quoted even today) "Jerome's a nice fella; he just got a criminal mind!" Every other kid in Jerome's family was a productive citizen. Jerome? Well, uh...

{Goes to Georgia Corrections Department Web Site}

STATE OF GEORGIA - CURRENT SENTENCES

CASE NO: 563073 OFFENSE: ARMED ROBBERY
CONVICTION COUNTY: MUSCOGEE COUNTY
CRIME COMMIT DATE: 06/23/2003
SENTENCE LENGTH: 15 YEARS, 0 MONTHS, 0 DAYS

CASE NO: 563073 OFFENSE: ARMED ROBBERY
CONVICTION COUNTY: MUSCOGEE COUNTY
CRIME COMMIT DATE: 06/23/2003
SENTENCE LENGTH: 15 YEARS, 0 MONTHS, 0 DAYS

CASE NO: 563073 OFFENSE: ARMED ROBBERY
CONVICTION COUNTY: MUSCOGEE COUNTY
CRIME COMMIT DATE: 06/23/2003
SENTENCE LENGTH: 15 YEARS, 0 MONTHS, 0 DAYS

CASE NO: 563073 OFFENSE: ARMED ROBBERY
CONVICTION COUNTY: MUSCOGEE COUNTY
CRIME COMMIT DATE: 06/23/2003
SENTENCE LENGTH: 15 YEARS, 0 MONTHS, 0 DAYS

CASE NO: 563073 OFFENSE: ARMED ROBBERY
CONVICTION COUNTY: MUSCOGEE COUNTY
CRIME COMMIT DATE: 06/23/2003
SENTENCE LENGTH: 15 YEARS, 0 MONTHS, 0 DAYS

CASE NO: 563073 OFFENSE: ARMED ROBBERY
CONVICTION COUNTY: MUSCOGEE COUNTY
CRIME COMMIT DATE: 06/23/2003
SENTENCE LENGTH: 15 YEARS, 0 MONTHS, 0 DAYS

CASE NO: 563073 OFFENSE: ARMED ROBBERY
CONVICTION COUNTY: MUSCOGEE COUNTY
CRIME COMMIT DATE: 06/23/2003
SENTENCE LENGTH: 15 YEARS, 0 MONTHS, 0 DAYS

STATE OF GEORGIA - PRIOR SENTENCES

CASE NO: 312823 OFFENSE: ROBBERY
CONVICTION COUNTY: MUSCOGEE COUNTY
CRIME COMMIT DATE: 10/24/1992
SENTENCE LENGTH: 10 YEARS, 60 MONTHS, 0 DAYS

CASE NO: 312823 OFFENSE: ROBBERY
CONVICTION COUNTY: MUSCOGEE COUNTY
CRIME COMMIT DATE: 10/24/1992
SENTENCE LENGTH: 10 YEARS, 60 MONTHS, 0 DAYS

CASE NO: 312823 OFFENSE: THEFT BY REC STOLEN PROP
CONVICTION COUNTY: MUSCOGEE COUNTY
CRIME COMMIT DATE: 12/07/1985
SENTENCE LENGTH: 2 YEARS, 7 MONTHS, 28 DAYS

CASE NO: 312823 OFFENSE: THEFT BY REC STOLEN PROP
CONVICTION COUNTY: MUSCOGEE COUNTY
CRIME COMMIT DATE: 12/04/1985
SENTENCE LENGTH: 2 YEARS, 7 MONTHS, 28 DAYS

CASE NO: 312823 OFFENSE: THEFT BY REC STOLEN PROP
CONVICTION COUNTY: MUSCOGEE COUNTY
CRIME COMMIT DATE: 12/02/1985
SENTENCE LENGTH: 2 YEARS, 7 MONTHS, 28 DAYS

CASE NO: 312823 OFFENSE: S/D COCAINE
CONVICTION COUNTY: MUSCOGEE COUNTY
CRIME COMMIT DATE: 11/24/1985
SENTENCE LENGTH: 2 YEARS, 7 MONTHS, 28 DAYS

CASE NO: 312823 OFFENSE: S/D COCAINE
CONVICTION COUNTY: MUSCOGEE COUNTY
CRIME COMMIT DATE: 11/24/1985
SENTENCE LENGTH: 2 YEARS, 7 MONTHS, 28 DAYS

STATE OF GEORGIA - INCARCERATION HISTORY

INCARCERATION BEGIN	INCARCERATION END
12/28/2004	ACTIVE
05/18/1993	02/03/2000
07/24/1986	07/24/1986
05/02/1986	05/02/1986
07/01/1976	11/07/1983

BUT HE WASN'T VIOLENT!!!

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by King of New York

1) Who are these well-respected pediatricians, exactly?

One of them happens to be my father-in-law. Duke, Duke Medical, taught at Johns Hopkins. He's co-authored a book or two on the matter and has been fairly regularly used as an "expert" opinion, along with several of his buddies with similar credentials.

2) Even if they exist, they are wrong.

No. You are. See? Two can play that game. *shurg*

Beating kids as an acceptable method of discipline is right up there with slavery, Jim Crow laws, burning witches, thinking that the sun goes around the earth and that the earth does not move, and a whole host of other beliefs and activities that, at one point in history, seemed okay to the majority of people. And then some people started to figure out that they were not okay; and then more and more people came to accept that they were not okay; and then most people came to understand that they were not okay. Right now, we are sort of at the tipping point, where the number of those who think that beating children is okay, and the number of those who disagree, is about even.

I have no doubt that in 100 years, people will look back at how long we tolerated this practice and shake their heads in disbelief, the same way that we shake our heads at our ancestors and some of what they did and thought.

There's a big difference between what I suspect you are referring to as "beating" and what I experienced and what my child will experience if necessary.

[Suicane75]

Sure, I'm not against discipline, I'm not even against spanking. But the problem I have is that the women in the quotes you posted don't seem to be able to separate the physical abuse in the video and the mental abuse.

When reading it I was imagining if those young women were young men with that same mindset. At what point do they stop seeing violence as the answer? I'm sure there are plenty of cases on the other side where people who don't appreciate consequences follow the same line. It's a fine line.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

One of them happens to be my father-in-law. Duke, Duke Medical, taught at Johns Hopkins. He's co-authored a book or two on the matter and has been fairly regularly used as an "expert" opinion, along with several of his buddies with similar credentials.
.

Wait, did he really write books on why should beat your kid in anger with a belt or are you just talking about calm spanking?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by molson

Link? (specifically one that endorses the belt + anger approach to discipline)

Spleen endorsed neither the belt (specifically) nor anger in his post, so that's immaterial.

[lungs]

Isn't there a difference between getting a hand to the ass once or twice and getting repeatedly belted? For fuck's sake. I got plenty of spankings when I was a kid but I don't remember any after like..... 8 years old. And I never got the belt treatment.

If you need to resort to using objects to spank or beat a kid, the kid is too old to be spanked. Like I said earlier, I don't even treat my cattle like this.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by molson

Wait, did he really write books on why should beat your kid in anger with a belt or are you just talking about calm spanking?

This is something I often question both sides of. I think it requires a definition of "later" and of course, "beat".

IMO, waiting until "later" is a bit...IDK, maybe "sinister" is the wrong word but it seems to be what comes to mind. The entire reason for spanking is to address an immediate problem because of potentially serious consequences. So waiting until later (in my definition of later) is beyond useful. Maybe I'm missing a scenario here.

So, imho it is up to you, as a parent, to learn to calm & control any immediate anger at the situation you might have. Not wait until it simmers to a calculated plan of attack on a child to address a problem that is likely not going to be understood by the child since the whole reason for them committing the action is immaturity to understand the consequences of the action. So why would they then understand it later after the action has come & gone unless "later" means 2-5 minutes or something.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by molson

Wait, did he really write books on why should beat your kid in anger with a belt or are you just talking about calm spanking?

See post above. I was referring to the attack on spleen's post, not the judge. And when it comes to being calm (or lacking emotions, as our wives would say when pissed at us,) the only two people I've ever known who are better at remaining calm virtually all the time are my father and my father-in-law. My wife says the only times she ever saw him cry were after he spanked her or her brother, and when his father died. My wife and I share the same memory of our fathers that we have extremely few memories of them ever even raising their voices.

[lungs]

And if my dad would have put one hand on me after I hit puberty, best case scenario would've been me grabbing a baseball bat out of my ball bag and beating him to smithereens back or just shooting him. Violence begets violence.

Needless to say, it never came close to that and my dad and I get along just fine

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

This is something I often question both sides of. I think it requires a definition of "later" and of course, "beat".

IMO, waiting until "later" is a bit...IDK, maybe "sinister" is the wrong word but it seems to be what comes to mind. The entire reason for spanking is to address an immediate problem because of potentially serious consequences. So waiting until later (in my definition of later) is beyond useful. Maybe I'm missing a scenario here.

So, imho it is up to you, as a parent, to learn to calm & control any immediate anger at the situation you might have. Not wait until it simmers to a calculated plan of attack on a child to address a problem that is likely not going to be understood by the child since the whole reason for them committing the action is immaturity to understand the consequences of the action. So why would they then understand it later after the action has come & gone unless "later" means 2-5 minutes or something.

The "later" thing is interesting. My wife was always spanked by her father, never her mother. And of course he had hospital calls, so it was fairly routine that he wouldn't get home from work until 8 or 9 pm. So many of her spankings were for stuff she'd done much earlier in the day. I don't know what age they stopped for her, so I'm not sure about that. But yeah, I'd definitely think younger children would completely miss the point if the punishment came several hours later. In my case, the spankings were always immediately after the fact, other than the cases where Effin' Mrs. Pickett called Mama at night.

[RainMaker]

There is a difference in spanking your child and beating the shit out of them in a sadistic manner.

[Tigercat]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

My concern about this particular video is mainly that he's angry

To me that is a big part of the problem. Anytime I have ever seen a spanking (on the behind, arm, ect) in real life the parent has been noticeably angry. When the spanking is an extension of your anger and not of calm discipline, that is violence against your child. And too many people (note: not all, I am sure) that defend spankings are committing flat out violence.

[Rizon]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

There is a difference in spanking your child and beating the shit out of them in a sadistic manner.

[spleen1015]

I have a stepson and a daughter. My stepson is now 18 almost 19 and I have been his stepfather since he was 6. I've spanked him twice.

My daughter is 8 and I have spanked her 3 times.

In all 5 situations it was with a belt, but it was no where near to the degree this guy did it. It was 3-5 good whacks to send a message. My wife and I talked about using the belt. I felt it was a better idea to just use your hand, but my wife bought up a good point, IMO.

We want to use our hands for love. You know, giving hugs, a pat on the back, etc. We don't want to use our hands for a spanking.

In all 5 cases where I have spanked my kids, there was been 2 things that made it a spanking. First, they were lying and they were caught red handed. Second, they were lying about something that they did that had a negative effect on someone else.

For example, the first time I spanked my daughter was because she and her friends were throwing rocks over the fence on the school playground. They heard the rocks hitting something but they didn't know what and yet they kept throwing rocks. Turns out, they were hitting a house and a car with the rocks, breaking windows in both. She lied about it and said she didn't throw any rocks even after the other 4 kids said they were all throwing rocks. So, she got a spanking and grounded for a long time.

Every time my kids have gotten a spanking, we have always talked about why and why what they did was wrong.

I grew up in a situation where I wasn't sure if my parents loved me. They didn't abuse me or beat me, but we were more in the way most of the time. So, I didn't really learn what love was until much later in life.

I want my kids to know that I love them and I want them to know what love is. I want them to feel like they are part of a family. So, everything I do takes those things into consideration. I don't think spanking them for what we deem to be serious offenses will cause them to not love us.

[PilotMan]

The whole situation is fucked up. That was abuse. No other rationalization is acceptable for it.

I spanked our kids too, but it stopped at 5 or 6. Once I could communicate with them and they understood what I was saying I didn't need to. That whole thing about his being just a spanking is total BS. Total fucking BS.

Punishment can be carried out a number of ways, and with older kids, physical abuse is the absolute least effective.

[Lathum]

I respect everyones right to discipline their children the way they see fit, and am not trying to change anyones mind, but IMO hitting your kid with a belt is fucked up.

[RomaGoth]

So I guess if someone doesn't like their child's behavior, an appropriate response is physical violence......makes perfect sense.

[I. J. Reilly]

I've found that anger is the enemy of instruction. Zenmastered

[AENeuman]

This is an existential crisis for the judge. His profession is to give harsher and harsher punishment to repeat offenders. With both his daughter and his criminals he probably sees little change or rehabilitation in this paradigm. But unlike the accused he gets to let out his frustration and anger on his daughter. Which is of course entirely unsatisfying and no better than the people he is judging.

[Flasch186]

Ill admit I havnt read every post in the thread but Ill say that my mom only spanked me one time and to this day I say to my wife about our kid,"like my mom did with me, we need to save it for something huge." My mom came home and caught me in the house playing with matches. She spanked me so hard that to this day I only remember her hitting me that one time. She may have spanked me other times but this was so different that I never played with matches again (I didnt even smoke but Im not sure theyre correlated).

So save it for the big one if you're going to spank at all, I say.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

I have a stepson and a daughter. My stepson is now 18 almost 19 and I have been his stepfather since he was 6. I've spanked him twice.

My daughter is 8 and I have spanked her 3 times.

In all 5 situations it was with a belt, but it was no where near to the degree this guy did it. It was 3-5 good whacks to send a message. My wife and I talked about using the belt. I felt it was a better idea to just use your hand, but my wife bought up a good point, IMO.

We want to use our hands for love. You know, giving hugs, a pat on the back, etc. We don't want to use our hands for a spanking.

In all 5 cases where I have spanked my kids, there was been 2 things that made it a spanking. First, they were lying and they were caught red handed. Second, they were lying about something that they did that had a negative effect on someone else.

For example, the first time I spanked my daughter was because she and her friends were throwing rocks over the fence on the school playground. They heard the rocks hitting something but they didn't know what and yet they kept throwing rocks. Turns out, they were hitting a house and a car with the rocks, breaking windows in both. She lied about it and said she didn't throw any rocks even after the other 4 kids said they were all throwing rocks. So, she got a spanking and grounded for a long time.

Every time my kids have gotten a spanking, we have always talked about why and why what they did was wrong.

I grew up in a situation where I wasn't sure if my parents loved me. They didn't abuse me or beat me, but we were more in the way most of the time. So, I didn't really learn what love was until much later in life.

I want my kids to know that I love them and I want them to know what love is. I want them to feel like they are part of a family. So, everything I do takes those things into consideration. I don't think spanking them for what we deem to be serious offenses will cause them to not love us.

It does not sound like your spankings actually physically hurt. It does not sound like you were hurling both mental and emotional abuse at your child. There is a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE difference in what you did and what the pig beating his child did. The number one thing you did is you TALKED to your kids. You probably didn't even need the spanking because of the talking. And that's what drew talks about is just that. That the abuse and beatings cause serious mental and emotional problems that can last a lifetime. That's why people end up in therapy. That's why people have huge trust issues, have trouble forming relationships and trouble at work, because of shit like that. You whack your kid in anger and just watch the scars that cvreates. Hell just look at cats. We've all seen psychocats before. Well when they get abused as kittens they grow up to be psychocats.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I would think this guy went about as far over the line as you can go.

Question? Do you have kids of your own?

Reason I ask is to not be all "you can't understand unless you have kids" but for me, I was 100% pro spanking, but now that I have a child of my own I can't imagine ever hitting him, let alone with a belt and closed fists.

It does go the other way too, though, Lathum. I have never spanked my kids, and never plan to. And when my first born was your kid's age, I would have felt exactly like you. But I can say at this point, with 8 and 5 year old boys, I can totally understand why parents choose to spank. Things do change as they get older. However, I still choose not to spank, as much as I might like to use it to get through to them at times. I spend a good deal of my day explaining to them why hitting their brother is not the correct response to being frustrated, or not liking what he's doing, etc. It just doesn't make sense to take the easy route when I'm asking them not to.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I have read every single post in this thread, and I feel pretty secure in saying this:

NOBODY IN THIS THREAD IS SAYING THAT BEATING THE SHIT OUT OF YOUR KID WITH A BELT WHEN YOU ARE FIERCE WITH EXCESSIVE RAGE IS OK

If you already knew that, thanks, you're better than the internet.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

I have read every single post in this thread, and I feel pretty secure in saying this:

NOBODY IN THIS THREAD IS SAYING THAT BEATING THE SHIT OUT OF YOUR KID WITH A BELT WHEN YOU ARE FIERCE WITH EXCESSIVE RAGE IS OK

If you already knew that, thanks, you're better than the internet.

Well, except for the facebook posts Ben cited, and then spleen1015 said he agreed with every one of the facebook posts. I think that did start a new little flurry of discussion.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

See post above. I was referring to the attack on spleen's post, not the judge. And when it comes to being calm (or lacking emotions, as our wives would say when pissed at us,) the only two people I've ever known who are better at remaining calm virtually all the time are my father and my father-in-law. My wife says the only times she ever saw him cry were after he spanked her or her brother, and when his father died. My wife and I share the same memory of our fathers that we have extremely few memories of them ever even raising their voices.

Fair enough, I thought you responding to that Dr. Drew video, who was responding to the belt attack.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by molson

Well, except for the facebook posts Ben cited, and then spleen1015 said he agreed with every one of the facebook posts. I think that did start a new little flurry of discussion.

Wait, those posts were real?

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Autumn

...I spend a good deal of my day explaining to them why hitting their brother is not the correct response to being frustrated, or not liking what he's doing, etc. It just doesn't make sense to take the easy route when I'm asking them not to.

this

[Marmel]

This isn't 1958 anymore. Anybody who defends hitting a child in this day and age, with a belt no less, is an ignorant, violent fool who should have his/her children taken away from them. Violence breeds violence. Of course, if you find this OK, please let me come over your house and beat the shit out of you for 10 minutes with a belt.

[spleen1015]

I guess I am an ignorant, violent fool who should have his kids taken away.

Please do come over and I'll let you beat the shit out of me for 10 minutes with a belt. We'll see how well that goes.

[Toddzilla]

Yeah, according to Ben, there are respectable psychologists out there with peer-reviewed data that prove that beating your child is okay. Either that or he was talking straight out of his ass.

[molson]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

Please do come over and I'll let you beat the shit out of me for 10 minutes with a belt. We'll see how well that goes.

What a tough guy.

Edit: Seriously though, do you beat your kids in the manner depicted in the video? If you don't, then you do have a line there and don't really agree with those facebook posters, or what some people here are saying about you. If you do beat your kids in that manner, yes, your kids should be taken away from you, no question.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

I guess I am an ignorant, violent fool who should have his kids taken away.

Please do come over and I'll let you beat the shit out of me for 10 minutes with a belt. We'll see how well that goes.

do you want WITH spiked heels or WITHOUT? And what is the safe word?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Marmel

Of course, if you find this OK, please let me come over your house and beat the shit out of you for 10 minutes with a belt.

You're welcome to try, although given the lack of legitimate authority you have to do so I rather imagine it won't end well.

The foolish are those who make statements like the one you made here.

[SteveMax58]

How's bout everybody stop with the internet tough guy talk? Nobody is going to go anywhere and do a dam thing.

It seems everybody is just piling on in some attempt to righteously defend fictitious images of abuse that nobody on this board has committed but somehow projecting onto somebody here because of some comment.

Guess what? If you can't discuss a subject like this without the emotion to start engaging in "I'd kick his ass" talk...you are exactly the type that would flip his lid in the right set of circumstances yourself. Don't kid yourself into thinking you have anybody else fooled either.

Everybody is human and everybody can reach a breaking point in many situations...perhaps not all the same situation, and not all the time. But lumping in spleen or anybody else that has commented into a (potentially) shitty group of abusive & sick fucks like what we might "think" this judge to be...is simply engaging in your own witch hunt.

[RomaGoth]

In before the lock.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

Everybody is human and everybody can reach a breaking point in many situations...perhaps not all the same situation, and not all the time. But lumping in spleen or anybody else that has commented into a (potentially) shitty group of abusive & sick fucks like what we might "think" this judge to be...is simply engaging in your own witch hunt.

[spleen1015]

I knew it was a mistake to post in this thread and that's why I didn't. I don't know why I thought it was a good idea when I did.

I am going to stay out of it now, though. It is these types of arguments that I avoid on this board and they're not why I come here.

[Rizon]

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

Everybody is human and everybody can reach a breaking point in many situations...perhaps not all the same situation, and not all the time.

Right, but that's not what we're discussing. We're not discussing whether someone can hit a breaking point, we're discussing what's an appropriate way to discipline your children.

I feel for people who wish that kids were raised with more discipline these days, I 100% agree that American kids today are often hardly parented at all, nevermind taught any discipline. I personally don't think that spanking is needed at all to teach real discipline. I think there's a spectrum here from

Overly Permissive Parents --> Parents who Discipline without spanking --> Parents who Use Spanking in their Discipline --> Parents Who Spank Like This Judge Did

I think the middle is where people should be, frankly. I guess i shouldn't be surprised by anything, but I am totally surprised by those Facebook comments Ben posted. I couldn't even watch most of that video I found it too horrifying. I didn't think even a spanking advocate would be okay with that.

[B & B]

I believe in beating children but not our childrens children because children shouldnt be having sex.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by Autumn

Right, but that's not what we're discussing. We're not discussing whether someone can hit a breaking point, we're discussing what's an appropriate way to discipline your children.

I think you're reading my comment out of context there (or out of the context I intended). It was to highlight that even those piling on to spleen are not immune to losing control and engaging in the same behavior they are proclaiming they'd like to use violence to stop in the 1st place.

So, in other words...if you believe in non-violence or non-spanking then you should naturally practice it & not feel inclined to get all "internet tough guy" to begin with.