OT - So, what do proper Syracuse fans root for now? - Page 2

ISiddiqui · 07-01-2003, 02:03 PM

Quote:

The Big 10 lost all rights to feel all regional when they added PSU.

No they didn't. They still have to vote on who to add, and if they still feel it is a regional conference + PSU, then they can feel that way.

Swaggs · 07-01-2003, 02:14 PM

I wonder if the Big East might consider offering Penn State the same sweetheart deal that they offered Miami at the 11th hour.

Getting PSU would guarantee the BCS would remain with the Big East and would give the conference its anchor school and some national TV possibilities.

PSU would probably get the BE's BCS 2-3 times out of every 5 years, rather than once every 5 years, as they do now in the Big 10, giving them a much better chance to win national championships. They would easily become the marquee team in the conference, escaping the shadow of Ohio State and Michigan.

Anrhydeddu · 07-01-2003, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Samdari
A few points here:

Penn State is further east and less midwestern than Syracuse. The Big 10 lost all rights to feel all regional when they added PSU.

Also, the whole Penn State/SU "rivalry" was only ever a rivalry on SU's side. To Penn State it was just another game. Their "rival" the team they wanted to beat most, was always Pitt. PSU dominated the East for 20 years, and every week, played someone that was playing their biggest game of the year. To PSU, Syracuse was just another one of those games.

Not true. Even though their game with Pitt happened on Thanksgiving weekend, nearly all of the games that SU was to be the away team in their series - were scheduled by PSU to be the homecoming game. Perhaps not as strong as Pitt but certainly not "just another game".

Noop · 07-01-2003, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by scooper
First of all, I'm not sure why you place "fan" in quotes.

The TV contract will be renewed. ND may not currently be the best team in college football (I'd be a fool to argue otherwise) but they are the most watched, either by those who love them or those who hate them. Plus, they play a national schedule full of top programs. This may sound like a snobbish opinion, but it's not. I don't mean it as any indication as to ND's status as a competitive program. They are simply the biggest business in college football. I'm not ashamed to admit that. They will have a TV contract after 2005.

I put the qoutes around fan because ND has some of the most snobbish fans I've ever meet and only like Notre Dame because they win. But after reading your post I can see your a honest ND as well as a fan of college football. So your a fan and not a "fan" also I dont believe ND will get that contract renewed. Wouldn't make sense if the BCS does become a playoff system. It could happen....

noop

scooper · 07-01-2003, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Noop
I put the qoutes around fan because ND has some of the most snobbish fans I've ever meet and only like Notre Dame because they win. But after reading your post I can see your a honest ND as well as a fan of college football. So your a fan and not a "fan" also I dont believe ND will get that contract renewed. Wouldn't make sense if the BCS does become a playoff system. It could happen....

noop

Fair enough, but I think ND fans deserve more credit. Yes, many are snobbish (I try not to be as I have nothing to be snobbish about), but it's been 10 years since we've had a true national championship contender and the fan base is still strong. We are more loyal than you give us credit for. Funny thing is, I latched on as a young lad during the Gerry Faust years, certainly not the height of ND success.

You're right. A playoff system would change everything, but I don't think we are close to seeing that. Not yet. The BCS is not perfect (understatement of the year) but there has yet to be the complete meltdown that will cause real change.

ND can play their cards patiently. If a playoff system does happen, there will be conferences willing to make room at the drop of a hat for ND. Just like ND, the rest of the college football world is driven by money. They may not be a top 10 program, but ND=$$$$.

By the way, I tend to think with Ty around, they will return to competing for national championships. He has certainly re-opened the talent pipeline and unlike Davie, he seems to know what to do with them.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the Nole rematch this year, as I'm sure you are as well. But first there are other big fish to fry.

Buzzbee · 07-01-2003, 02:42 PM

A couple of thoughts:

I certainly HOPE the ACC doesn't screw up and go messing with the SEC. If they do, I think it would be VERY easy for the SEC to lure away a Florida State, a Clemson, and or a Georgia Tech. The only schools I can see the ACC taking from the SEC would be South Carolina or Vanderbilt. South Carolina might not be a bad fit for the ACC. It certainly fits in the geography, and the Clemson/SC rivialry already exists. While SC's reputation in basketball is somewhat sketchy, there is at least SOME history (back in the 50's or 60's with McGuire coaching). Vanderbilt belongs in the Ivy league, or the Patriot league, or the we suck at athletics league.

In regard to Penn State moving to the Big East, why would they? Yes, they might have a better chance at a BCS bid, but I think there are a lot of negatives that outweigh that. One would be regular season football revenue. PSU would go from playing teams like Ohio State, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Michigan State, to teams like Boston College, Syracuse, West Virginia, and UConn. There is no comparison, at least in my opinion, in regard to potential revenues from ticket sales, concessions, merchandise, etc. Also, I believe moving out of the Big Ten would hurt PSU's football recruiting. The opportunity to play against big time, reputable programs attracts big time recruits. Yes, there are sports other than football, but football is the big money maker.

Noop · 07-01-2003, 02:43 PM

scooper

I'm also looking forward to that game as well...last seasoned stung badly but we're looking for a little payback

noop

scooper · 07-01-2003, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Noop
scooper

I'm also looking forward to that game as well...last seasoned stung badly but we're looking for a little payback

noop

I turned down Ohio State-Penn State tickets to stay home alone and watch that game. Well worth it, I might say. While I enjoyed the outcome, it was not a classic. I think this season's game has the potential to be a classic. 93 was, even FSU fans have to admit that was an exciting game, down to Shawn Woooden batting down Charlie Ward's last second pass to the endzone.

I love that they are playing the series again, sadly ND's schedule is full for a few years after this but maybe they can pick it up again later.

Abe Sargent · 07-01-2003, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Buzzbee
A couple of thoughts:

I certainly HOPE the ACC doesn't screw up and go messing with the SEC. If they do, I think it would be VERY easy for the SEC to lure away a Florida State, a Clemson, and or a Georgia Tech. The only schools I can see the ACC taking from the SEC would be South Carolina or Vanderbilt. South Carolina might not be a bad fit for the ACC. It certainly fits in the geography, and the Clemson/SC rivialry already exists. While SC's reputation in basketball is somewhat sketchy, there is at least SOME history (back in the 50's or 60's with McGuire coaching). Vanderbilt belongs in the Ivy league, or the Patriot league, or the we suck at athletics league.

In regard to Penn State moving to the Big East, why would they? Yes, they might have a better chance at a BCS bid, but I think there are a lot of negatives that outweigh that. One would be regular season football revenue. PSU would go from playing teams like Ohio State, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Michigan State, to teams like Boston College, Syracuse, West Virginia, and UConn. There is no comparison, at least in my opinion, in regard to potential revenues from ticket sales, concessions, merchandise, etc. Also, I believe moving out of the Big Ten would hurt PSU's football recruiting. The opportunity to play against big time, reputable programs attracts big time recruits. Yes, there are sports other than football, but football is the big money maker.

I don't think Penn State will go Big East, but let's not disparage the Big East games too much.

There's a lot of history with playing WVU and Pitt in Penn State. Penn State/Pitt is/was a major rivalry and would be a great annual game, with more fans riled up than playing Wisconsin or MSU. Some of Penn State's best and worst moments on the gridiron were versus WVU and they created a healthy rivalry in the 70's and 80's when they would trade lopsided wins.

To this day, a JoePa coached team has not given up as many points in one half as it did against WVU, for example. Both WVU and Pitt offer more regional hype than anything the Big Ten can toss. So, while I don't believe that Penn State will jump ship, it's not because the games that the Big East offers will stunt stadium revenues.

-Anxiety

Swaggs · 07-01-2003, 03:13 PM

Penn State will sell out its stadium regardless of who they are playing, so I don't think attendance or concessions is an issure in either conference or if they are an independent.

As for merchandising, I would think the chance to go 12-0 (in a weakened Big East where they would be king) and get into a national championship game versus 10-2 (in the B10, where they will never be more than third fiddle behind UM and tOSU, in my opinion) and un upper tier bowl would increase their national exposure and improve their national sales.

I am certainly not saying they would take an offer from the Big East, but just suggesting that it would be worthwhile for the BE to make them the same offer they made Miami, in order to have an anchor school. Of course, an offer like that could backfire and give PSU enough leverage within the Big 10 to get Pitt in, or risk losing PSU.

Wolfpack · 07-01-2003, 03:22 PM

MK: I'm perfectly aware of Navy's shortcomings. It was more of a putdown against Vandy rather than a booster for Navy. It would indeed be an incredibly large gap for the Middies to overcome to be a competitor in the present ACC configuration, particularly outside football.

If the ACC were to go to 12, I think the best candidate is Pittsburgh. Closer than Syracuse, has a much better academic reputation than West-by-God-Virginia, and is a private school kinda-sorta-almost-but-not-quite-in-the-Northeast, not to mention a decent two-sport school. Syracuse wouldn't be bad, but after all that's happened, I don't think they'd want us anymore, as Marmel said (just how much pride could be stand to be swallowed if such an offer were made is up for debate...VT had absolutely none in that respect, but that's VT). I can't see ND (too self-important), Penn State (too hard to pry from the Big 10), BC (too far, may also be unforgiving of ACC), or Louisville (just isn't the right fit culturally to me) coming in. The ACC probably would also not take on any Florida school for much the same reason they wouldn't take ECU (lesson from having four schools in NC is that it's perhaps a bad thing to have too many schools in the same state...besides, do FSU and Miami want UCF or USF anyway, or do they view them like the Big Four views ECU?) That pretty much leaves Navy (negatives abound unless there was a radical turnaround), WVU (academics a problem), and Pittsburgh as likely targets after they try and fail to get ND and PSU. Of those, I'd want Pittsburgh.

Buzzbee · 07-01-2003, 03:25 PM

Anxiety and Swaggs, you make valid points, but I'm still not so sure that a PSU vs. West Virginia matchup is as compelling as Penn State/Michigan, or Penn State/Ohio State. Yes, Penn/Pitt would be a given, but don't the two play out of conference games against each other every once in a while now? I thought they did which is why I didn't list that game under either conference.

Yes, being the big fish in the little pond has it's advantages, but Florida State and Miami both seem to want to shake that stigma....even though they have BOTH won National Titles in the last 5 years.

Bee · 07-01-2003, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wolfpack
WVU (academics a problem)

Hey!

As a gradient from West Virgenia Unavercity I rescent that remarck!

I was learnt reel good during my 6 1/2 yeares at WVU! And that inclues both of my Senyor yeares!

Edit: oops mispelled learnt!

MylesKnight · 07-01-2003, 03:30 PM

One thing I've found interesting is that the there are only 4 schools involved in the Big East's lawsuit against the ACC and Miami (and now Virginia Tech as well possibly).

I read this somewhere earlier today.. Damn, where is the Link..

Anyway, who are the 4? I know UConn is one.. But who else? Have BC and/or Syracuse joined in the group? Have Pitt, WVU or Rutgers left?

Will this make any kind of a difference when it comes to deciding who the 12th ACC invitee will be down the road? (Although I think the invite to Virginia Tech may have already answered that question).

And by the way, Wolfpack, I would say UCF & USF are in a similar situation to East Carolina although maybe not as severly yet. One thing that has been noticed is the "Big 3" of Florida's reluctance to play UCF or USF in a lot of sports. Kudos to Miami though for agreeing to a 2 for 1 matchup with UCF on the Gridiron in the near future.

As for UCF or USF being the 12th ACC Invitee... I'd call that one about the longest shot there is in all of this.. Oh well, we can still dream though can't we?

Samdari · 07-01-2003, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
No they didn't. They still have to vote on who to add, and if they still feel it is a regional conference + PSU, then they can feel that way.

Good point. They can feel however they want.

After adding Penn State, they lost the ability to publicly claim they are a regional conference and not look like idiots.

Wolfpack · 07-01-2003, 03:33 PM

The lawsuit is now down to UConn, Rutgers, Pittsburgh, and West Virginia, I believe. Also, with Virginia Tech (and more importantly, the state of Virginia) dropping from the suit, it's supposed to be easier to get the case punted to federal court where the ACC can get a better chance at having it dismissed.

QuikSand · 07-01-2003, 03:34 PM

I offered this observation:

Quote:

Originally posted by QuikSand
...especially since (despite geography) Syracuse may have a more easternly/northeasternly perception than Penn State does.

To which you firmly "corrected" me by saying:

Quote:

Originally posted by Samdari
A few points here:

Penn State is further east and less midwestern than Syracuse.

I'm pretty familiar with the geography, as I sought to indicate clearly in the sleection I quote above. As for the "attitude" of the two schools, I would submit that I believe Penn State at least has a better conceptual and cultural tie to the schools of the Big Ten - a very large, fairly rurally located, flagship-type state school.

As far as its gegraphic draw, I'd have trouble accepting that Penn State skews more "east" than does Syracuse, regardless of their respective geographic locations.

I'll stand by my statement.

MylesKnight · 07-01-2003, 03:38 PM

Pittsburgh does sound like a very interesting prospect for the ACC. Top Notch Facilities for the 2 Major Sports, up and coming programs in both sports (although with their Hoops Coach leaving for UCLA we shall see what happens with that), and a solid metro location, one in which the ACC has no foothold what-so-ever currently.

I would like to check out some mileage charts and compare Pittsburgh to say Louisville and the rest of the ACC Schools. Again, Miami isn't what I would call a close neighbor to any of the their other ACC Breatheren, but Hurricane Football will definitely make up for that. Although I believe Pittsburgh is closer to what would be their closest ACC Rival (Maryland) than Miami will be to their's (FSU).

MylesKnight · 07-01-2003, 03:40 PM

DOLA!!

Also, I still would like to know an answer to this.. What happens with Temple and the Big East?

Has there been any discussion between the two of keeping Temple and giving them an All-Sports Invite now that Miami and Virginia Tech are leaving the Conference?

Remember, Temple is scheduled to leave the Big East Football Conference in 2004, with UConn moving in to take their place. Where Temple was headed at that point, who knows?

Anrhydeddu · 07-01-2003, 03:48 PM

QS is correct. Syracuse, as part of the rural Upstate New York region, has its ties to New England and to the river highways of the Mohawk and Hudson valleys (think Erie Canal). Even though it is very close to a Great Lakes, its growth and history all comes from the East.

PSU and its region, on the other hand, primarily grew as an outgrowth from the Westward movement into the Ohio River Valley (State College is west of the Blue Ridge range). (It also benefitted secondarily from the West Branch of the Susquehanna River.) It was the movement across the Blue Ridge that populated the Old Northwest states of Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, etc. Whereas Upstate New York was populated by New Englanders, Western Pennsylvania was populated from the Pennsylvania Germans and the Scot-Irish that had dominated (and still does) the Appalachian region extending from Western Penn, West Virgina and down through KY, VA , NC and GA.

Samdari · 07-01-2003, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wolfpack
MK: I'm perfectly aware of Navy's shortcomings. It was more of a putdown against Vandy rather than a booster for Navy. It would indeed be an incredibly large gap for the Middies to overcome to be a competitor in the present ACC configuration, particularly outside football.

If the ACC were to go to 12, I think the best candidate is Pittsburgh. Closer than Syracuse, has a much better academic reputation than West-by-God-Virginia, and is a private school kinda-sorta-almost-but-not-quite-in-the-Northeast, not to mention a decent two-sport school. Syracuse wouldn't be bad, but after all that's happened, I don't think they'd want us anymore, as Marmel said (just how much pride could be stand to be swallowed if such an offer were made is up for debate...VT had absolutely none in that respect, but that's VT). I can't see ND (too self-important), Penn State (too hard to pry from the Big 10), BC (too far, may also be unforgiving of ACC), or Louisville (just isn't the right fit culturally to me) coming in. The ACC probably would also not take on any Florida school for much the same reason they wouldn't take ECU (lesson from having four schools in NC is that it's perhaps a bad thing to have too many schools in the same state...besides, do FSU and Miami want UCF or USF anyway, or do they view them like the Big Four views ECU?) That pretty much leaves Navy (negatives abound unless there was a radical turnaround), WVU (academics a problem), and Pittsburgh as likely targets after they try and fail to get ND and PSU. Of those, I'd want Pittsburgh.

This is an astute analysis Wolfpack, but you are analyzing this for all the right reasons, which makes them not at all the reasons the ACC will look for in a 12th school. I think you are overrating the importance of distance a bit. Pitt is also way outside the epicenter of the ACC, and is only a slightly less shitty geographic fit.

The 12th school will be added with a single criterion: how much additional revenue that school is perceived to add. If they get their championship game with 11 teams approved, they might just wait out Notre Dame like the Big 10 is. I don't think they would join a conference, but if it doesn't cost you money to wait till 2005, you might as well.

While SU officials poo-poo'ed the idea of joining the ACC in the future, that was doing what they have to do now: publicly endorsing the Big East. Read those comments as "We might be stuck in this lousy conference for a while, so I can't tell the newspapers how lousy it it" If the ACC needs to add a team next year to arrange their championship game, and they come to a concensus that SU is the most attractive candidate, they will call, and SU will, and should, listen.

I hope that the arrogance of the NC schools hurts them in the end. One clear message that has been sent by the ACC is that they are willing to let politicians determine their membership. Enjoy ECU guys. And they will get more support than you can possibly imagine from all the public schools, too, as political wheels are greased.

Samdari · 07-01-2003, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MylesKnight
DOLA!!

Also, I still would like to know an answer to this.. What happens with Temple and the Big East?

Has there been any discussion between the two of keeping Temple and giving them an All-Sports Invite now that Miami and Virginia Tech are leaving the Conference?

Remember, Temple is scheduled to leave the Big East Football Conference in 2004, with UConn moving in to take their place. Where Temple was headed at that point, who knows?

If they don't cut the basketball schools loose, Temple will never be a basketball member. Villanova would be way against it, and could get the other Catholic schools to side with them. In all of this, I have heard little mention of keeping Temple in football.

Buzzbee · 07-01-2003, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Samdari
I hope that the arrogance of the NC schools hurts them in the end. One clear message that has been sent by the ACC is that they are willing to let politicians determine their membership. Enjoy ECU guys. And they will get more support than you can possibly imagine from all the public schools, too, as political wheels are greased.

While ECU may get heavy political support, I'm not sure it will be enough to ramrod them in. Remember, Duke is a private school, and I believe Wake is as well. The state could probably pressure UNC and NC State, to hold out for ECU, but I'm not sure Duke would welcome a further weakening of the basektball pool. They just MIGHT vote for another school with a more prestigious BB program over ECU.

Just a thought.

QuikSand · 07-01-2003, 04:08 PM

In political systems, it's almost universal that there are more who are empowered to say "no" than there are to say "yes."

Politicians in Virginia might have been able to halt the offers to expand without Va Tech, by essentially holding out the third "no" vote. It's a tougher thing entirely to see the politicians in North Carolina managing a similar feat but to get the entire conference to say "yes" to ECU or anyone else in particular (without wide agreement).

It's a truism of political systems - and don't be fooled into thinking this is anything more pure than that.

Wolfpack · 07-01-2003, 04:28 PM

QS is correct.

Also, MK, I've actually done some distance studies with respect to the ACC schools. Bear in mind, this is average distance to the ACC cities based on "as the crow flies":

East Carolina: 274 miles
West Virginia: 363 miles
Pittsburgh: 413 miles
Penn State: 448 miles
Louisville: 438 miles
Notre Dame: 604 miles (by comparison, it's 592 to remaining BE members)
Syracuse: 620 miles
Miami (to other 10 ACC members): 704 miles
Boston College: 737 miles

BC to Maryland is 387. Miami to Tallahassee is 407.

Do note that while it is further for Miami to FSU than BC to Maryland, it is much further for BC to reach the rest of the ACC than Miami.

Wolfpack · 07-01-2003, 04:32 PM

dola,

To add further emphasis, the nearest current Big East member to Miami in any sport is none other than Virginia Tech at 789 miles. Next nearest is Georgetown at 924 miles. Miami to Maryland (the furtherest ACC member) is 931 miles.

albionmoonlight · 07-01-2003, 04:43 PM

What if the ACC took Vandy in a non-hostile takeover way? If they got together with Vandy, the SEC, the school that would replace Vandy in the SEC (school X) and School Xs conference and all agreed to make the transition? It might even be able to be done in a way that would eliminate "leaving" penalties--and there would be no danger in the SEC taking Fla. St. or Clemson in retribution because there would be nothing to retributize (hey, if Wolfpack can make up furtherest as a word . . .).

The more I think about it, the more it seems that Vandy belongs in the ACC and Louisville in the SEC. Does the SEC want Vandy? Does Vandy want the SEC?

Buzzbee · 07-01-2003, 04:48 PM

The only reason the ACC would want Vandy is so that Duke would have someone they might could beat in football.

lynchjm24 · 07-01-2003, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bee
I can't imagine any reason for Penn State to go to the Big East. It would be great for the Big East, but I don't think it would ever happen.

They begged to get in back in 1981 - the Big East invited Pittsburgh instead.

Wolfpack · 07-01-2003, 09:21 PM

Just to be nitpicky about it, "furtherest" is a word, albeit a poor usage as this link points out:

http://www.bartleby.com/68/49/2449.html

Feel free to change my "furtherest" to "furthest" if it makes you feel better.

At any rate, no the ACC wouldn't want Vandy. Besides, Duke (for their role in this public relations mess) deserves to be the punching bag of the rest of the league and don't deserve anyone they can beat.

Samdari · 07-02-2003, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Buzzbee
While ECU may get heavy political support, I'm not sure it will be enough to ramrod them in. Remember, Duke is a private school, and I believe Wake is as well. The state could probably pressure UNC and NC State, to hold out for ECU, but I'm not sure Duke would welcome a further weakening of the basektball pool. They just MIGHT vote for another school with a more prestigious BB program over ECU.

Just a thought.

Oh, I know that, I am just wondering if some governors might call other governors, and so on, and thus gain the support of all the public universities. I am unsure exactly how many of the schools are private, as the only ones I know are Duke, Miami and Wake. I want to think Georgia Tech is and Clemson isn't, but I am not sure on either count.

albionmoonlight · 07-02-2003, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wolfpack
Just to be nitpicky about it, "furtherest" is a word, albeit a poor usage as this link points out:

http://www.bartleby.com/68/49/2449.html

Feel free to change my "furtherest" to "furthest" if it makes you feel better.

At any rate, no the ACC wouldn't want Vandy. Besides, Duke (for their role in this public relations mess) deserves to be the punching bag of the rest of the league and don't deserve anyone they can beat.

I stand corrected on the grammar and I agree with you about Duke.

GrantDawg · 07-02-2003, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Samdari
Oh, I know that, I am just wondering if some governors might call other governors, and so on, and thus gain the support of all the public universities. I am unsure exactly how many of the schools are private, as the only ones I know are Duke, Miami and Wake. I want to think Georgia Tech is and Clemson isn't, but I am not sure on either count.

GT and Clemson are state universities.

GrantDawg · 07-02-2003, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by albionmoonlight
What if the ACC took Vandy in a non-hostile takeover way? If they got together with Vandy, the SEC, the school that would replace Vandy in the SEC (school X) and School Xs conference and all agreed to make the transition? It might even be able to be done in a way that would eliminate "leaving" penalties--and there would be no danger in the SEC taking Fla. St. or Clemson in retribution because there would be nothing to retributize (hey, if Wolfpack can make up furtherest as a word . . .).

The more I think about it, the more it seems that Vandy belongs in the ACC and Louisville in the SEC. Does the SEC want Vandy? Does Vandy want the SEC?

If the ACC wanted Vandy, the SEC would buy the ticket and drive them to the airport.

Bee · 07-02-2003, 09:45 AM

The rumor now is Kentucky to the ACC.

07-01-2003, 02:14 PM	#52
Swaggs Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	I wonder if the Big East might consider offering Penn State the same sweetheart deal that they offered Miami at the 11th hour. Getting PSU would guarantee the BCS would remain with the Big East and would give the conference its anchor school and some national TV possibilities. PSU would probably get the BE's BCS 2-3 times out of every 5 years, rather than once every 5 years, as they do now in the Big 10, giving them a much better chance to win national championships. They would easily become the marquee team in the conference, escaping the shadow of Ohio State and Michigan. __________________ DOWN WITH HATTRICK!!! The RWBL Are you reading In The Bleachers?

07-01-2003, 02:42 PM	#56
Buzzbee College Starter Join Date: Jun 2002	A couple of thoughts: I certainly HOPE the ACC doesn't screw up and go messing with the SEC. If they do, I think it would be VERY easy for the SEC to lure away a Florida State, a Clemson, and or a Georgia Tech. The only schools I can see the ACC taking from the SEC would be South Carolina or Vanderbilt. South Carolina might not be a bad fit for the ACC. It certainly fits in the geography, and the Clemson/SC rivialry already exists. While SC's reputation in basketball is somewhat sketchy, there is at least SOME history (back in the 50's or 60's with McGuire coaching). Vanderbilt belongs in the Ivy league, or the Patriot league, or the we suck at athletics league. In regard to Penn State moving to the Big East, why would they? Yes, they might have a better chance at a BCS bid, but I think there are a lot of negatives that outweigh that. One would be regular season football revenue. PSU would go from playing teams like Ohio State, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Michigan State, to teams like Boston College, Syracuse, West Virginia, and UConn. There is no comparison, at least in my opinion, in regard to potential revenues from ticket sales, concessions, merchandise, etc. Also, I believe moving out of the Big Ten would hurt PSU's football recruiting. The opportunity to play against big time, reputable programs attracts big time recruits. Yes, there are sports other than football, but football is the big money maker. __________________ Ability is what you're capable of doing. Motivation determines what you do. Attitude determines how well you do it. - Lou Holtz

07-01-2003, 02:43 PM	#57
Noop Bonafide Seminole Fan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Miami	scooper I'm also looking forward to that game as well...last seasoned stung badly but we're looking for a little payback noop __________________ Subby's favorite woman hater.

07-01-2003, 03:13 PM	#60
Swaggs Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	Penn State will sell out its stadium regardless of who they are playing, so I don't think attendance or concessions is an issure in either conference or if they are an independent. As for merchandising, I would think the chance to go 12-0 (in a weakened Big East where they would be king) and get into a national championship game versus 10-2 (in the B10, where they will never be more than third fiddle behind UM and tOSU, in my opinion) and un upper tier bowl would increase their national exposure and improve their national sales. I am certainly not saying they would take an offer from the Big East, but just suggesting that it would be worthwhile for the BE to make them the same offer they made Miami, in order to have an anchor school. Of course, an offer like that could backfire and give PSU enough leverage within the Big 10 to get Pitt in, or risk losing PSU. __________________ DOWN WITH HATTRICK!!! The RWBL Are you reading In The Bleachers?

07-01-2003, 03:25 PM	#62
Buzzbee College Starter Join Date: Jun 2002	Anxiety and Swaggs, you make valid points, but I'm still not so sure that a PSU vs. West Virginia matchup is as compelling as Penn State/Michigan, or Penn State/Ohio State. Yes, Penn/Pitt would be a given, but don't the two play out of conference games against each other every once in a while now? I thought they did which is why I didn't list that game under either conference. Yes, being the big fish in the little pond has it's advantages, but Florida State and Miami both seem to want to shake that stigma....even though they have BOTH won National Titles in the last 5 years. __________________ Ability is what you're capable of doing. Motivation determines what you do. Attitude determines how well you do it. - Lou Holtz

07-01-2003, 03:22 PM	#61
Wolfpack Pro Rookie Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Raleigh, NC	MK: I'm perfectly aware of Navy's shortcomings. It was more of a putdown against Vandy rather than a booster for Navy. It would indeed be an incredibly large gap for the Middies to overcome to be a competitor in the present ACC configuration, particularly outside football. If the ACC were to go to 12, I think the best candidate is Pittsburgh. Closer than Syracuse, has a much better academic reputation than West-by-God-Virginia, and is a private school kinda-sorta-almost-but-not-quite-in-the-Northeast, not to mention a decent two-sport school. Syracuse wouldn't be bad, but after all that's happened, I don't think they'd want us anymore, as Marmel said (just how much pride could be stand to be swallowed if such an offer were made is up for debate...VT had absolutely none in that respect, but that's VT). I can't see ND (too self-important), Penn State (too hard to pry from the Big 10), BC (too far, may also be unforgiving of ACC), or Louisville (just isn't the right fit culturally to me) coming in. The ACC probably would also not take on any Florida school for much the same reason they wouldn't take ECU (lesson from having four schools in NC is that it's perhaps a bad thing to have too many schools in the same state...besides, do FSU and Miami want UCF or USF anyway, or do they view them like the Big Four views ECU?) That pretty much leaves Navy (negatives abound unless there was a radical turnaround), WVU (academics a problem), and Pittsburgh as likely targets after they try and fail to get ND and PSU. Of those, I'd want Pittsburgh.

07-01-2003, 03:30 PM	#64
MylesKnight College Benchwarmer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Neptune Beach, Florida	One thing I've found interesting is that the there are only 4 schools involved in the Big East's lawsuit against the ACC and Miami (and now Virginia Tech as well possibly). I read this somewhere earlier today.. Damn, where is the Link.. Anyway, who are the 4? I know UConn is one.. But who else? Have BC and/or Syracuse joined in the group? Have Pitt, WVU or Rutgers left? Will this make any kind of a difference when it comes to deciding who the 12th ACC invitee will be down the road? (Although I think the invite to Virginia Tech may have already answered that question). And by the way, Wolfpack, I would say UCF & USF are in a similar situation to East Carolina although maybe not as severly yet. One thing that has been noticed is the "Big 3" of Florida's reluctance to play UCF or USF in a lot of sports. Kudos to Miami though for agreeing to a 2 for 1 matchup with UCF on the Gridiron in the near future. As for UCF or USF being the 12th ACC Invitee... I'd call that one about the longest shot there is in all of this.. Oh well, we can still dream though can't we? __________________ IT'S ALL ABOUT THE BLACK & GOLD!!

07-01-2003, 03:33 PM	#66
Wolfpack Pro Rookie Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Raleigh, NC	The lawsuit is now down to UConn, Rutgers, Pittsburgh, and West Virginia, I believe. Also, with Virginia Tech (and more importantly, the state of Virginia) dropping from the suit, it's supposed to be easier to get the case punted to federal court where the ACC can get a better chance at having it dismissed.

07-01-2003, 03:38 PM	#68
MylesKnight College Benchwarmer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Neptune Beach, Florida	Pittsburgh does sound like a very interesting prospect for the ACC. Top Notch Facilities for the 2 Major Sports, up and coming programs in both sports (although with their Hoops Coach leaving for UCLA we shall see what happens with that), and a solid metro location, one in which the ACC has no foothold what-so-ever currently. I would like to check out some mileage charts and compare Pittsburgh to say Louisville and the rest of the ACC Schools. Again, Miami isn't what I would call a close neighbor to any of the their other ACC Breatheren, but Hurricane Football will definitely make up for that. Although I believe Pittsburgh is closer to what would be their closest ACC Rival (Maryland) than Miami will be to their's (FSU). __________________ IT'S ALL ABOUT THE BLACK & GOLD!! Last edited by MylesKnight : 07-01-2003 at 03:41 PM.

07-01-2003, 03:40 PM	#69
MylesKnight College Benchwarmer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Neptune Beach, Florida	DOLA!! Also, I still would like to know an answer to this.. What happens with Temple and the Big East? Has there been any discussion between the two of keeping Temple and giving them an All-Sports Invite now that Miami and Virginia Tech are leaving the Conference? Remember, Temple is scheduled to leave the Big East Football Conference in 2004, with UConn moving in to take their place. Where Temple was headed at that point, who knows? __________________ IT'S ALL ABOUT THE BLACK & GOLD!! Last edited by MylesKnight : 07-01-2003 at 03:41 PM.

07-01-2003, 03:48 PM	#70
Anrhydeddu Resident Curmudgeon Join Date: Oct 2002	QS is correct. Syracuse, as part of the rural Upstate New York region, has its ties to New England and to the river highways of the Mohawk and Hudson valleys (think Erie Canal). Even though it is very close to a Great Lakes, its growth and history all comes from the East. PSU and its region, on the other hand, primarily grew as an outgrowth from the Westward movement into the Ohio River Valley (State College is west of the Blue Ridge range). (It also benefitted secondarily from the West Branch of the Susquehanna River.) It was the movement across the Blue Ridge that populated the Old Northwest states of Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, etc. Whereas Upstate New York was populated by New Englanders, Western Pennsylvania was populated from the Pennsylvania Germans and the Scot-Irish that had dominated (and still does) the Appalachian region extending from Western Penn, West Virgina and down through KY, VA , NC and GA.

07-01-2003, 04:08 PM	#74
QuikSand lolzcat Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Annapolis, Md	In political systems, it's almost universal that there are more who are empowered to say "no" than there are to say "yes." Politicians in Virginia might have been able to halt the offers to expand without Va Tech, by essentially holding out the third "no" vote. It's a tougher thing entirely to see the politicians in North Carolina managing a similar feat but to get the entire conference to say "yes" to ECU or anyone else in particular (without wide agreement). It's a truism of political systems - and don't be fooled into thinking this is anything more pure than that.

07-01-2003, 04:28 PM	#75
Wolfpack Pro Rookie Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Raleigh, NC	QS is correct. Also, MK, I've actually done some distance studies with respect to the ACC schools. Bear in mind, this is average distance to the ACC cities based on "as the crow flies": East Carolina: 274 miles West Virginia: 363 miles Pittsburgh: 413 miles Penn State: 448 miles Louisville: 438 miles Notre Dame: 604 miles (by comparison, it's 592 to remaining BE members) Syracuse: 620 miles Miami (to other 10 ACC members): 704 miles Boston College: 737 miles BC to Maryland is 387. Miami to Tallahassee is 407. Do note that while it is further for Miami to FSU than BC to Maryland, it is much further for BC to reach the rest of the ACC than Miami.

07-01-2003, 04:32 PM	#76
Wolfpack Pro Rookie Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Raleigh, NC	dola, To add further emphasis, the nearest current Big East member to Miami in any sport is none other than Virginia Tech at 789 miles. Next nearest is Georgetown at 924 miles. Miami to Maryland (the furtherest ACC member) is 931 miles. Last edited by Wolfpack : 07-01-2003 at 04:33 PM.

07-01-2003, 04:43 PM	#77
albionmoonlight Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: North Carolina	What if the ACC took Vandy in a non-hostile takeover way? If they got together with Vandy, the SEC, the school that would replace Vandy in the SEC (school X) and School Xs conference and all agreed to make the transition? It might even be able to be done in a way that would eliminate "leaving" penalties--and there would be no danger in the SEC taking Fla. St. or Clemson in retribution because there would be nothing to retributize (hey, if Wolfpack can make up furtherest as a word . . .). The more I think about it, the more it seems that Vandy belongs in the ACC and Louisville in the SEC. Does the SEC want Vandy? Does Vandy want the SEC?

07-01-2003, 04:48 PM	#78
Buzzbee College Starter Join Date: Jun 2002	The only reason the ACC would want Vandy is so that Duke would have someone they might could beat in football. __________________ Ability is what you're capable of doing. Motivation determines what you do. Attitude determines how well you do it. - Lou Holtz

07-01-2003, 09:21 PM	#80
Wolfpack Pro Rookie Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Raleigh, NC	Just to be nitpicky about it, "furtherest" is a word, albeit a poor usage as this link points out: http://www.bartleby.com/68/49/2449.html Feel free to change my "furtherest" to "furthest" if it makes you feel better. At any rate, no the ACC wouldn't want Vandy. Besides, Duke (for their role in this public relations mess) deserves to be the punching bag of the rest of the league and don't deserve anyone they can beat.

07-02-2003, 09:45 AM	#85
Bee Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fairfax, VA	The rumor now is Kentucky to the ACC.

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