OT - So, what do proper Syracuse fans root for now?

[QuikSand]

I've followed the recent soap opera of the ACC/Big East transitions with interest, but not without really strong feelings one way or the other. I generally respect deep traditions, and would have been a bit upset had Syracuse left the Big East and lost its basketball rivalries (I still harken back to the origins of the Big East, and the solid rivalries with Georgetown, St. John's, and maybe Villanova - but especially G'Town). But I recognize that these aren't lifelong blood rivalries - it's not inconceivable to upend two or thre decades of history... it's not like Auburn and Alabama, or the like.

So, it looks like things have simmered down - Syracuse is still in the Big East, and things look just peachy for basketball. (Where, just a reminder here, Syracuse stands as the reigning NCAA Men's College basketball champions) Losing Miami and Va Tech isn't bad at all for basketball - Miami had brief flashes of competence under Leonard Hamilton, but was never a serious player in the conference. Va Tech stinks.

Now, I want to properly ally myself with the forces of good and virtue. I want things to work out well for my alma mater -- but I'm not sure where from here is the best path. My question is basically framed around Syracuse, but is essentialy a question about the Big East as well (assuming SU stays in that conference).

What is the best that could happen here?

-Adding Louisville? Cincinnati? Both?

-Going south and picking up a school like Central Florida?

-Raid the MAC of a school like Marshall?

-Break up the Big East as a football conference, and send the teams to cut their own best deals?


I don't really know. I guess Louisville brings a good deal to the table, and is arguably the best addition in terms of the big two men's sports. I dont' know if the geography makes a lot of sense, or how importat that should be. (I certainly didn't care about geography when Miami was added)


Anyone - Syracuse fan or otherwise - care to offer a thought?

[Anrhydeddu]

http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10892

[QuikSand]

For those of you not inclined to cut and paste to follow the non-link above, I think A is pointing to his post in the other general thread (about this whole issue) where he suggests that Syracuse could/should still jump to the ACC. Just FYI.

[Daimyo]

Since Notre Dame seems out of reach, I'm hoping Syracuse joins the Big Ten. I don't know if that is in SU's best interests or not. I'm curious what SU fans would think of that. My impression is that NY'ers greatly look down on the midwest, so I imagine it wouldn't be a popular move for the fans.

[Anrhydeddu]

It's more than that. Others talk about the viability of the Big East and whether it's a conference that should SU should even considering staying in. Marmel is making his case as well. Should we continue that discussion here? It doesn't matter either way.

[Marmel]

I have always been a fan of the Big10 conference and wouldn't mind SU ended up there. If they split into East-West type divisions, SU would fit in pretty decent with a nice group of 'Great Lake' teams. I would be happy with that.

If that does not work, I guess a combination of Louisville, a Florida Directional School, and a Marshall might work.

The only option (which I have repeated elsewhere) that I do not want to see is SU to the ACC.

[Marmel]

dola....

Daimyo I just saw your comment about the East coasters attitude on the Midwest, and you are probably correct, but I think we understand the way those universities operate, and can respect that. Syracuse is definitly an 'East Coast' School, but because of its upstate New York location, I believe the people up there operate a little like both sections of the country...

[Bee]

I think the first question is "Will the Big East remain as both a football and basketball conference?". I suspect that's likely, but not guaranteed. If they do, I suspect Louisville is a guaranteed lock for the Big East. I also think Central Florida is almost as likely because of the needed access to recruits in Florida for all the football schools. I think it likely that Cincinnati will replace Temple. Just my opinion, but I think if they go down this road they will remain a BCS conference (although the weakest of the BCS conferences). In fact, remaining a BCS conference beyond 2005 might be part of a deal that could be cut to drop the lawsuit.

If the conference splits, I'd look for the football schools to be picked up by various conferences (Syracuse most likely becoming the 12th team in the ACC IMO). I think the basketball schools will form a new Big East basketball only conference by adding some of the basketball only schools that have previously been mentioned.

What's best for Syracuse? I'd guess if the conference splits would be the best financially. If the conference sticks together, it might be best for "tradition". I think Syracuse will come out in good shape no matter what happens.

[QuikSand]

I have serious reservations about the Big Ten. largely because I grew up in Big Ten country, an Ohio State fan. The Big Ten has a fairly strong sense of regionalism - and is pretty strongly identified with its midwestern roots. In fact, I know there were people way back when on this site when we were discussing the precies meanings of geographical terms who defined the term "midwest" simply in terms of the Big Ten, not including the eleventh member.

My concern about joining the Big Ten is not at all one of competition - it's purely one of acceptance. I think Penn State is a poor fit for the Big Ten, and they still are not really thought of by the traditional schools in that conferences as anything more than an addition of convenience. I have trouble seeing Syracuse being received any more warmly-- especially since (despite geography) Syracuse may have a more easternly/northeasternly perception than Penn State does. There is no question that Syracuse's students and following are centered in New York/Long Island, Boston/Northeast, Upstate New York, and then perhaps the Mid-Atlantic (Washington area much more so than any of teh traditional Big Ten territory. I have to imagine that this would be a barrier of some sort, on top of the Big Ten's traditions.

I guess my bottom line with SU in the Big 10 would be-- if it "worked," it would probably be great. But I have real doubts whether it would work, at least in the foreseeable future of 10-15 years.

The potential upside would be a presumably renewed rivalry with Penn State, and possibly a regular season-end game with them (ending the sham that is the Mich St/Penn St game on rivalry weekend). Syracuse has something of an axe to grind with PSU, who ducked out on their long-standing annual rivalry game just a SU football was starting to get good again.

[Marmel]

Your Syracuse/Midwest notes are very reasonable, but I think SU would have been an even worse fit in the Good Ole Boys' ACC conference, yet that was as close to a done deal as it gets.

[Anrhydeddu]

I still get a chuckle out of Big East "tradition", in regards to football. It's a relatively recent conference (since 1979) so most of SU's history is not tied there. Even during the long run of winning seasons, it had always been a controversy as to how to rate the Big East champion in the major bowl picture (which SU got screwed a few times because of it, just like BYU in the WAC). My arguments have been centered on national exposure - which is what drives the TV contracts and the BCS picture. Without Miami, the Big East is truly a regional conference at best (but not even that popular in their own region). SU vs. any other team will not be on national coverage (like SU/UM had been). SU vs. some of the elite teams in the B10 and ACC will give them that exposure.

[illinifan999]

I'd like to see SU in the Big Ten. Even though they'd probably beat Illinois in football and baseketball I'd like to see them in there. Plus maybe that would make Illinois beef up their lacrosse program.

[cthomer5000]

The question I'm really beginning to ask myself is "What is the best situation for all involved?"

The Big East clearly has a good thing going in basketball (although you can argue that it's a bit too big a conference), and I suspect that is the only thing that might keep the Big East from exploding.

I think trying to lure Penn State out of the big 10 and back where they belong could be a move that would benefit everyone. It really doesn't hurt the Big 10, it makes Penn State the premier team in the coference, and it helps the Big East maintain credibility (and thus, giving it a much better chance to retain a BCS bid).

how about this alignment:

Penn State
Boston College
Syracuse
Pitt
Louisville
West Virginia
Rutgers
U-Conn


If the big east could land Penn State and Louisville, it'd replace the departing programs with those of slighty worse stature. Louisville would obviously be a very nice basketball gain as well.

I think ultimately the major issue in the Big East is reaching agreement between the basketball schools and the football/basketball schools.

[Bee]

I can't imagine any reason for Penn State to go to the Big East. It would be great for the Big East, but I don't think it would ever happen.

[Marmel]

I am not holding out hope for Penn St. A Eastern Football conference with Penn St. is what Joe Pa wanted and pushed for, but that was what? 15 years ago....

They would be a better fit in the East, but I am afraid they would risk too much to actually make the move.

[scooper]

What about unproper Syracuse fans?

[Bee]

Originally posted by scooper
What about unpopular Syracuse fans?

That covers just about all of them doesn't it?

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by scooper
What about unproper Syracuse fans?

Isn't that unproper usage?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally posted by Marmel
The only option (which I have repeated elsewhere) that I do not want to see is SU to the ACC.

Well, you've got at least one ACC guy right here who agrees with you on that.

It's nothing personal, I just don't care for the wacky conference geography that it creates (FTR, I opposed the addition of BC for the same reason).

'Course, we all realize that what the fans want doesn't really amount to much in all this.

[Anrhydeddu]

I don't understand that mindset (not wanting SU in ACC). Whatever hard feelings there are now will be blown over in year (replaced by other controversies). It's all about money and prestige and to say that SU is in a favorable situation currently when compared to being in the ACC, is puzzling imo. Think about the difference of being in a BCS conference vs. not being in one (which the Big East will be very soon).

[Marmel]

A-

Basically, I like to think Syracuse is a cut above the likes of say.............Virginia Tech, and that as an institution of higher learning, maybe Syracuse can be one of the (very) few schools where integrity is mightier than the dollar.

[Noop]

Why would you want Central Florida? South Florida by far is the better football and basketball and could in a couple of seasons be a serious threat to take the 3rd stop in Florida.



noop

[Bee]

Central Florida brings the Orlando market vs the Tampa market. (A growing market vs a stagnant market).

[Kodos]

I think Penn State wouldn't want to step down from the Big Ten into a weakened Big East.

Also, do you think the Big Ten will ever adopt a new name, especially if they move to 12 teams?

[dacman]

Originally posted by QuikSand
My concern about joining the Big Ten is not at all one of competition - it's purely one of acceptance. I think Penn State is a poor fit for the Big Ten, and they still are not really thought of by the traditional schools in that conferences as anything more than an addition of convenience.

You've been out of Big Ten country too long QS -- most BT folks I know LOVE that PSU is in the Big Ten (for football at least which drives the bus). If anything, a lot of Big Ten folks (alumni, supporters, not administration mind you) would be all for dropping Northwestern and going back to 10.

BTW, there is about ZERO interest among the powers that be for adding Syracuse to the Big Ten.

There is a lot of talk about dropping the 12 team requirement for a conference championship game for football down to 10 teams, so a huge motivating factor for adding teams to get to 12 might be eliminated soon.

[dacman]

Originally posted by Kodos
Also, do you think the Big Ten will ever adopt a new name, especially if they move to 12 teams?

Nope -- they already decided in 99 to stick with the name "Big Ten" even if ND would've joined up. Weird, I know.

[Bee]

The AD at Arkansas says he thinks the ACC will target a SEC school to add a 12th team. Interesting...

[Anrhydeddu]

Originally posted by Marmel
A-

Basically, I like to think Syracuse is a cut above the likes of say.............Virginia Tech, and that as an institution of higher learning, maybe Syracuse can be one of the (very) few schools where integrity is mightier than the dollar.

You know that I have argued for the dream of not having any D1 football programs but the reality today is to get better and stronger and bigger. It is my perception that football brings in more wealth than all other sports combined. SU, as strong supporters of minor sports like lacrosse, as well as strong academic programs, cannot afford to take a financial hit that will be coming.

[scooper]

Originally posted by Kodos


Also, do you think the Big Ten will ever adopt a new name, especially if they move to 12 teams?

I like the Big Televen.

[dacman]

Originally posted by Bee
The AD at Arkansas says he thinks the ACC will target a SEC school to add a 12th team. Interesting...

Clemson? I could see that being an OK fit. edit: I'll leave this one in for a chuckle.

South Carolina? Meeh.

Florida? Woah -- that would make the ACC a super-conference fer sure, but somehow I don't see that happening.

Georgia/GT? Nah.

Don't see anyone else on that horizon.

[Noop]

Originally posted by Bee
Central Florida brings the Orlando market vs the Tampa market. (A growing market vs a stagnant market).

T.V. markets don't mean a thing because the SEC dont really have big markets and yet people still watch it. One reason its all regionally and their rivals are natural and make since.




noop

[scooper]

Originally posted by Noop
T.V. markets don't mean a thing because the SEC dont really have big markets and yet people still watch it. One reason its all regionally and their rivals are natural and make since.




noop

On the contrary, TV markets mean everything. That's why Syracuse and Boston College were originally involved.

Though your input on the fledgling Florida programs is appreciated as they could end up players in this whole mess.

[Anrhydeddu]

Noop,

I can diss USF because my wife is a graduate from there. USF has just entered D1 and still have a long ways to go. In the BE, they would be on par with Temple right now (but with a better future obviously). Folks underestimate the Northeast-Florida connection so I can see the interest but USF would be a stretch.

[MylesKnight]

Originally posted by Noop
Why would you want Central Florida? South Florida by far is the better football and basketball and could in a couple of seasons be a serious threat to take the 3rd stop in Florida.



noop

Noop, Noop, Noop... You sure do know how to get on my good side, don't ya?

I would say in argument that your "by far" comment is a bit extreme. Currently, yes USF does have a better Hoops Program, that mainly having to do with the amount of time they've spent at the Division I level in all sports except for Football compared to UCF, and the current membership the Bulls have in CUSA. This is something that would definitely even out in my opinion if UCF currently had a similar Conference to compete in.

As for Football, I'd say that one is about as nip and tuck as it gets. Sure, USF went 9-2 last season while UCF went 7-5 but take a quick look at each school's schedule if you would. And for USF, take a look at their schedules they've played since moving up to Division I-A a couple of years ago.. I don't think UCF would've had a hard time matching USF's record in that time with those schedules.

At the end of the day though (or shall I in upcoming years), UCF and USF will both continue to close the gap between themselves and the so called "Big 3 of Florida". It's just a matter of time my friend.

[MylesKnight]

By the way Noop, here's an excerpt of a post I made on the other thread regarding this whole ACC/Big East/College Football Expansion Mumbo Jumbo situation, regarding my Alma Mater and the Big East.. In case you didn't check that one out already my friend...


..As for UCF in particular, Football would compete right away (in the Big East) and only get better, Baseball would be very strong, Women's Sports would be very strong outside of Hoops right away, and all other Men's Sports outside of Hoops would compete well..

Men's & Women's Basketball would be the two things that would definitely need the most work, but if you took a look at what UCF is doing in terms of upgrading those programs, you'd see why they would definitely be worth the risk. A new 10,000+ seat On-Campus Arena is on the way, $$ is being spent to build a new Sports Training Facility which will be done within the year and we have ourselves an Athletic Director whose stated goal is to get this University into the big time level of Division I-A Athletics and is doing whatever it takes to take the steps to make this happen with the unwavering support of the University Brass.

[SunDancer]

Originally posted by dacman
Clemson? I could see that being an OK fit. edit: I'll leave this one in for a chuckle.

South Carolina? Meeh.

Florida? Woah -- that would make the ACC a super-conference fer sure, but somehow I don't see that happening.

Georgia/GT? Nah.

Don't see anyone else on that horizon.

Vanderbilt could be a possible target.

[Anrhydeddu]

Vanderbilt? The worse team from the SEC??

I am aware of the connection between academic prestige and athletic programs, but I don't believe there is any such thing as a Big East Academic League, is there? So why the nonsense about the Big East preserving its academic excellence? It had Miami in there all of those years, did it not?

[dacman]

Originally posted by SunDancer
Vanderbilt could be a possible target.

For who? The ACC? No chance in hell. The Big East? I rather doubt it -- maybe on the list, but not 1st choice material.

[scooper]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
Vanderbilt? The worse team from the SEC??

I am aware of the connection between academic prestige and athletic programs, but I don't believe there is any such thing as a Big East Academic League, is there? So why the nonsense about the Big East preserving its academic excellence? It had Miami in there all of those years, did it not?

I believe the Vandy reference was in regard to the ACC looking for a 12th team, not the Big East. If that is the case, I could see it as a fit. They would bring nothing to the table football-wise, but with the addition of Miami and V-tech, the conference is set for football but they might be a more attractive addition/appeasement to Tobacco Road.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I've always wished the ACC could swap the SEC straight up, Clemson for Vanderbilt. Each, IMO, is a better fit in the other conference.

[Noop]

MylesKnight

I'm not a fan of South Florida by a longshot but lets look at it thru clear eyes not the gold and black one you have. I know they played a weak schedule but they played Oklahoma real close if you watched the game. USF gives a overall appeal to the Big East or whatever league they join UCF is okay but Orlando doesn't have anything but Wet and Wild. UCF in my opinion is only known for Daunte Culpepper and that my friend just doesn't do it for me, but I'm not the one making the choice so it doesn't matter.

scooper

The ACC would make sense if it allowed SU and BC, also the only reason why they were considered was because Shalala is a SU alumi and want to bring them along. As a Norte Dame "fan" shouldn't you be worried what you guys are going to do in 2005 when your T.V. contract run out?

[MylesKnight]

Maybe the biggest question coming out of all this though is, will Duke ever be able to end that ACC Football Winless Streak? I believe it's at 25 and counting right now, with Miami and Virginia Tech to be added to the slate shortly. YIKES!!

[Anrhydeddu]

...and USF is only know for...the Grammatica assholes?

[Noop]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
...and USF is only know for...the Grammatica assholes?

Why all the beef?



noop

[Samdari]

Originally posted by QuikSand
I have serious reservations about the Big Ten. largely because I grew up in Big Ten country, an Ohio State fan. The Big Ten has a fairly strong sense of regionalism - and is pretty strongly identified with its midwestern roots. In fact, I know there were people way back when on this site when we were discussing the precies meanings of geographical terms who defined the term "midwest" simply in terms of the Big Ten, not including the eleventh member.

My concern about joining the Big Ten is not at all one of competition - it's purely one of acceptance. I think Penn State is a poor fit for the Big Ten, and they still are not really thought of by the traditional schools in that conferences as anything more than an addition of convenience. I have trouble seeing Syracuse being received any more warmly-- especially since (despite geography) Syracuse may have a more easternly/northeasternly perception than Penn State does. There is no question that Syracuse's students and following are centered in New York/Long Island, Boston/Northeast, Upstate New York, and then perhaps the Mid-Atlantic (Washington area much more so than any of teh traditional Big Ten territory. I have to imagine that this would be a barrier of some sort, on top of the Big Ten's traditions.

I guess my bottom line with SU in the Big 10 would be-- if it "worked," it would probably be great. But I have real doubts whether it would work, at least in the foreseeable future of 10-15 years.

The potential upside would be a presumably renewed rivalry with Penn State, and possibly a regular season-end game with them (ending the sham that is the Mich St/Penn St game on rivalry weekend). Syracuse has something of an axe to grind with PSU, who ducked out on their long-standing annual rivalry game just a SU football was starting to get good again.

A few points here:

Penn State is further east and less midwestern than Syracuse. The Big 10 lost all rights to feel all regional when they added PSU.

Also, the whole Penn State/SU "rivalry" was only ever a rivalry on SU's side. To Penn State it was just another game. Their "rival" the team they wanted to beat most, was always Pitt. PSU dominated the East for 20 years, and every week, played someone that was playing their biggest game of the year. To PSU, Syracuse was just another one of those games.

[Wolfpack]

I'd take Navy before Vandy. Seriously. We already have Duke and Duke at least plays basketball at present. Vandy's been AWOL in that department for a few years now. Navy at least would bring a "global" fan base, not to mention support from the various naval and marine bases throughout the southeast, and one of the most prestigious and watched games in college football into the league. Who knows? It might make Navy varsity sports better able to compete with the Air Force, who have benefitted from a strong relationship in the MWC to generally be the best service academy sports-wise.

Also, while adding UF, UGa, or USuCk to the ACC would be intriguing, I don't think there is mutual interest in either the ACC or the said institutions for change. Both conferences tend to take a general pride in that they are not the other conference. The ACC went after Big East targets because they were good schools and the Big East had a much weaker loyalty structure than the SEC has built for about 80 years. It was easier to pluck the Big East. It still is. The only other candidates for the 12th in the ACC are in CUSA or are independent, or Penn State and that's only because the Lions have been Big 10 members for just over 10 years.

Now, back to the topic at hand, I'm not at all sure what Syracuse, et al, should do. It really depends on if they can get a big name for the football league. Syracuse, Pittsburgh, and WVU are respectable and solid programs, but they just don't have the name recognition in football. You need something to get the networks fighting to carry your games and unfortunately, those three schools don't have that kind of weight, at least in football. In a few years, absent Miami or VT in the league, then yes, one or two of them might be able to have that kind of recognition, but does the Big East have enough time to develop these programs into nationally recognized ones? The reason the ACC made this jump is not really because the ACC is still a one-trick pony in football. The rise of NC State (two straight wins over FSU and 3 of 5), Virginia, and Maryland contradicts this. (Yes, they do need to sustain it, but there is every indication that they won't fall back right now.) The need to expand was driven by the fact that the ACC, regardless of the growing strength of some of its programs, was still perceived as a one-team league, a concern in light of the next TV rights negotiation in football was in 2005. Syracuse and Pittsburgh could be great teams next year, but everyone still thinks the Big East is Miami and the other seven, much as FSU is the ACC and the "little eight", in spite of any information to the contrary.

If the Big East can land Notre Dame (at whatever cost) or Penn State, then they'll survive as a football league with a BCS bid. Anything else, and I'm just not sure what the draw card will be to remain in the BCS after three years. (Granted, the BCS itself is up for changing after that time, so anything's possible)

[MylesKnight]

Noop, let me respond by saying that UCF has played pretty much whomever the superior opponent has been in past very close as well.

Yes I saw the USF/Oklahoma Game, but did you see the USF/Arkansas Game? This was the same Arkansas team that UCF almost beat in Fayetteville the season before.. USF was absolutely whitewashed by the Hogs.

Hey, I'm not saying UCF blows USF away, not by any stretch of the imagination.. But I am saying these two are awfully close in terms of overall Universities, including Athletics. To make the statement that USF is far superior to UCF is just flat out wrong in my opinion..

I don't think I speak with a UCF Bias when I'm talking about all of this, but maybe there is a bit of one. I just think a lot of people are misinformed about UCF, as well as USF, and fall into that "Well they're just another Directional School" frame of mind.

..But as you said before, our opinions really don't make a bit of a difference do they. It's fun to talk about it though.

[Wolfpack]

dola,

I've got to shorten my posts. The conversation moves rather quickly from the time I finish reading to the time I finish posting.

[MylesKnight]

Wolfpack, my friend, you really think Navy would consider moving all of their sports from the Patriot League, a Conference where they currently have a tough time competing in most sports, to a League like the ACC?

Now Football-Only I could see, but Overall, no way.

One of these days Navy will join a Conference for Football-Only though. My $$$$ is on either the MAC or C-USA after this whole Realignment Process is finished.

[scooper]

Originally posted by Noop


As a Norte Dame "fan" shouldn't you be worried what you guys are going to do in 2005 when your T.V. contract run out?

First of all, I'm not sure why you place "fan" in quotes.

The TV contract will be renewed. ND may not currently be the best team in college football (I'd be a fool to argue otherwise) but they are the most watched, either by those who love them or those who hate them. Plus, they play a national schedule full of top programs. This may sound like a snobbish opinion, but it's not. I don't mean it as any indication as to ND's status as a competitive program. They are simply the biggest business in college football. I'm not ashamed to admit that. They will have a TV contract after 2005.

I was sincere on my appreciation for input on UCF and USF. Both are intriguing programs. They don't get much press nationally, but down the road a few years, that can change. The fact is there is a lot of talent to go around in Florida and the big three can't get them all.