Who is the best hockey player ever?

[vtbub]

Originally Posted by bsak16

Why isnt Wyndell Clark on this list?

To prepare you for the beating you will receive from certain posters from Ottawa, it's Wendell.

Don't say you weren't warned.

[wheels]

Originally Posted by BuffaloHuskey

I really think that hands down it has to be Dryden as the best goalie ever. Look at his GA and Stanley Cups. His Goals against with the minimal padding they wore is unbelievable.

In any case, he is a great story. He was earning his law degree at McGill when he started his professional career. I am impressed by that.

I am a big Dryden fan (read his book, "The Game"), but if you're comparing pure goaltending ability independent of the team, I think Hasek is better. Dryden was very good, very rarely out of position, but he played with Larry Robinson, Guy Lapointe and other elite players of the era. I've seen Hasek make more unbelievable saves and keep his team in the game with his sheer will with considerably less talent surrounding him (except perhaps when he was on the Wings).

I realize that I'm splitting hairs here, but if I had to pick, it would be Hasek.

[JeffR]

Originally Posted by BuffaloHuskey

I really think that hands down it has to be Dryden as the best goalie ever. Look at his GA and Stanley Cups. His Goals against with the minimal padding they wore is unbelievable.

In any case, he is a great story. He was earning his law degree at McGill when he started his professional career. I am impressed by that.

I doubt most Habs fans would even name him as their team's best goalie ever; Roy and/or Plante would probably get mentioned first. It's tough to evaluate him because of the teams in front of him - four hall of famers on defence, the best defensive forward of all time, and some of the best offensive players of the 70's.

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by Brian Vogel

So are you saying that the player chosen as MVP is not always neccesarily the BEST player overall, but (as the name states) the MOST VALUABLE overall?

Huh?? How do you possibly differentiate the two?? This argument could go in circles for hours...so, go ahead and say that Gretzky's 9 MVP awards are useless and that there was somebody better than him those 9 years...but, as soon as you come up with the name of that guy(s), you let me know.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by wheels

I am a big Dryden fan (read his book, "The Game"), but if you're comparing pure goaltending ability independent of the team, I think Hasek is better. Dryden was very good, very rarely out of position, but he played with Larry Robinson, Guy Lapointe and other elite players of the era. I've seen Hasek make more unbelievable saves and keep his team in the game with his sheer will with considerably less talent surrounding him (except perhaps when he was on the Wings).

I realize that I'm splitting hairs here, but if I had to pick, it would be Hasek.

Hasek is almost certainly the best ATHLETE to ever play goalie, and one of the greatest goalies ever. I think Roy was better.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Hasek is almost certainly the best ATHLETE to ever play goalie, and one of the greatest goalies ever. I think Roy was better.

Roy is, was, and always will be a bitch. Talented? Yes. But a bitch nonetheless...

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by vtbub

To prepare you for the beating you will receive from certain posters from Ottawa, it's Wendell.

It's Wendel.

Originally Posted by Johnny93g

Kings only made the finals because of Kerry "F'n" Fraser

(twitches)

Originally Posted by everyone else

What about Paul Coffey? Ken Dryden? Dominik Hasek?

I'd just like to say that there are some really, really terrible arguments being made in this thread.

[KJDelaney]

Originally Posted by DeToxRoxDVHStyle

Dola

Bobby Orr: 657 GP, 270 G, 645 A, 953 PT
Paul Coffey: 1409 GP, 396 G, 1135 A, 1531 PT

More then twice the games played, not even twice as many goals and assists.

Bobby Orr. Period.

What would his numbers have been if his knees didn't break down.

The "Holy Trinity" for Hockey is

Howe - Father
Gretzky - Son
Orr - Holy Spirit.

Not coffey, not hasek, (couldn't hold Dryden's jock), not Tretiak (although, he was GREAT.

Mario is/should be top 3. But, who would you remove.

[ScottVib]

Gordie Howe

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by johnnyshaka

Huh?? How do you possibly differentiate the two?? This argument could go in circles for hours...so, go ahead and say that Gretzky's 9 MVP awards are useless and that there was somebody better than him those 9 years...but, as soon as you come up with the name of that guy(s), you let me know.

Why can't you differentiate between the two? We just covered before that Jerry Rice has never won an MVP award. But he is no doubt the greatest WR ever, and head and shoulders above plenty of other guys who have won MVPs. My argument is the award is called Most Valuable Player...not Best Player in the League trophy.

Not sure where I said his Harts are useless. I just don't see using them for a basis to say he's the best ever. The award itself is subjective by the writers selecting it's winner.

[ScottVib]

Originally Posted by Brian Vogel

What if the Oilers had stayed in the WHA?

I did add in the original post that it is ALL speculation.

Take it another way, what if the Indianapolis Racers never folded prior to the WHA's demise... Gretzky would have never been in Edmonton.

[st.cronin]

Well, if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by Brian Vogel

Why can't you differentiate between the two? We just covered before that Jerry Rice has never won an MVP award. But he is no doubt the greatest WR ever, and head and shoulders above plenty of other guys who have won MVPs. My argument is the award is called Most Valuable Player...not Best Player in the League trophy.

Why is Jerry Rice the greatest receiver ever and why is there no doubt?? Is it because of his amazing stats?? The longevity of his career?? The number of Super Bowls he won?? Hmmm...sounds pretty familiar.

Originally Posted by Brian Vogel

Not sure where I said his Harts are useless. I just don't see using them for a basis to say he's the best ever. The award itself is subjective by the writers selecting it's winner.

This whole discussion is subjective, what's your point?? If you want to take the subjectivity out of it, then have a look at the stats and record books and then tell me that Mario outshines Wayne and I'll politely call you a liar.

[primelord]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

You are misunderstanding. I'm arguing that Gretzky and the Oilers' offensive prowess made other teams in the league focus more on offensive, leading to an offensive era. When Gretzky is scoring 92 goals or 215 points, you can't focus on defense, you have to try to outscore them. In that way, Gretzky and the Oilers were responsible for the offensive era in hockey, which is more impressive (to me) than anything Lemieux did.

And longevity counts. People can say all they want about Sandy Koufax and how great he was in his prime. Walter Johnson is still better, and part of that is the amount of years he pitched.

I still disagree with this. The death of offense in hockey was not so much a shift to a heavy focus on defense. It was a shift to big unskilled guys who clutch and grab in the neutral zone and grind the game to a halt. You also had the introduction of ridiculous sized goalie pads. Gretzky didn't face these things in Edmonton.

I certainly agree longevity counts. However I believe Lemieux played enough that the longevity shouldn;t count heavily against him even though it does in most people's minds. In your example Koufax only had 4 truly dominant years. Lemieux on the other hand had over 100 points 10 years. SO it isn;t like Koufax or Gale Syares or Terrell Davis who had short bursts of brillance and then were cut down before we could know for certain how greatvthey really were.

Lemieux was dominant for over a decade. He just doesn't stack up in total points because of his injuries, but it isn;t like we don;t for sure just how good he was. Should just total production really be what we judge this on? Does anyone truely believe that Jerome Bettus and Curtis Martin were better running backs than Jim Brown just because they played longer and had more yards?

Just to make it very clear. I think Gretzky is the greatest player ever in hockey. I am not making the argument that Lemieux is better. However I keep seeing comments along the lines of "It isn't even close". The total numbers don't tell the whole story.

[KJDelaney]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Well, if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.

Well put.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by primelord

At least you are offering some supporting evidence.

This is the problem in these types of debates. In general the people who argue that Gretzky, Ruth and Jordan were the greatest of their respective sports never really give much of an argument. Those three are just generally considered the greatest and so the rest on that.

I have made what I think is a pretty solid argument to why Lemieux is in fact very close to Gretzky (although I too believe Gretzky still has the edge). What flaw do you see in my argument other than you just think Gretzky is the greatest?

Gretsky elevated the players around him(see la kings after his arrival)

Lemieux never showed that ability.(see weak seasons for Penguins even with Mario healthy)

Gretsky is the single greatest Hockey plyer to date in the NHL.

[JeffNights]

Originally Posted by GreenMonster

1 Wayne Gretzky 2857
2 Mark Messier 1887
3 Gordie Howe 1850
4 Ron Francis 1798
5 Marcel Dionne 1771
6 Steve Yzerman 1734
7 Mario Lemieux 1723

That is why the NHL retired #99..

Breaking momentarily from the subject, man I really want Stevie to pass Ron Francis...Fucking Lockout year ruined that, dammit. I have no problems being behind Marcel Dionne, but Ron Francis? Nah...

[primelord]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Lemieux never showed that ability.(see weak seasons for Penguins even with Mario healthy)

What a silly statement.

In the 89-90 season the Kings were 34-39-7 2nd to last in their division. Gretzky had 142 points that season. In the 93-94 season they were 27-45-12 and Gretzky had 130 points again second to last in their division. In the shortened season of 94-95 they were third to last in their division despite Gretzky having 48 points in 48 games. In 95-96 they finished second to last despite Gretzky again leading the team in points before he was traded 62 games in.

In total the Kings had a below .500 record for the entire time Gretzky was there. I made sure to post his point totals in the really bad seasons just to show that it can't be blamed on him falling off. When you play on a crappy team there is only so much you can do. Trying to say that Lemieux didn;t make his teammates better just because they had some poor seasons is just silly. If that is the case why isn't the same thing being said about Gretzky on some of these awful Kings teams?

If you don't think Lemieux made the players around him better then you flat out were not watching him play in the early to mid 90s.

[Karim]

I think you need to look at games played to put the point totals into context:

1 Wayne Gretzky 2857(1487)
2 Mark Messier 1887(1756)
3 Gordie Howe 1850(1767)
4 Ron Francis 1798(1731)
5 Marcel Dionne 1771(1348)
6 Steve Yzerman 1734(1484)
7 Mario Lemieux 1723(915)

Other notables for comparison:
Bobby Orr 915(657)
Raymond Bourque 1579(1612)
Paul Coffey 1531(1409)
Maurice Richard 965(978)
Jean Believeau 1219(1125)
Phil Esposito 1590(1282)
Mike Bossy 1126(752)
Guy Lafleur 1353(1127)
Joe Sakic 1452(1205)
Bobby Hull 1170(1063)

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by Karim

I think you need to look at games played to put the point totals into context:

1 Wayne Gretzky 2857(1487)
2 Mark Messier 1887(1756)
3 Gordie Howe 1850(1767)
4 Ron Francis 1798(1731)
5 Marcel Dionne 1771(1348)
6 Steve Yzerman 1734(1484)
7 Mario Lemieux 1723(915)

Other notables for comparison:
Bobby Orr 915(657)
Raymond Bourque 1579(1612)
Paul Coffey 1531(1409)
Maurice Richard 965(978)
Jean Believeau 1219(1125)
Phil Esposito 1590(1282)
Mike Bossy 1126(752)
Guy Lafleur 1353(1127)
Joe Sakic 1452(1205)
Bobby Hull 1170(1063)

That's what points per game will do for you.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by johnnyshaka

Why is Jerry Rice the greatest receiver ever and why is there no doubt?? Is it because of his amazing stats?? The longevity of his career?? The number of Super Bowls he won?? Hmmm...sounds pretty familiar.



This whole discussion is subjective, what's your point?? If you want to take the subjectivity out of it, then have a look at the stats and record books and then tell me that Mario outshines Wayne and I'll politely call you a liar.

So how can you argue that Gretz is the best ever because he won 9 Harts in 10 years...and then say Rice is the best ever DESPITE never winning one MVP? Gretz was a great player, therefore won MVPs. But winning MVPs does not make you a great player. See Kurt Warner.

A player can be the most valuable to his team without being it's premier player. I realize this is not a league-wide situation etc, but Casey Hamtpon (Steelers NT) was recognized by his teammates as team MVP. He is not the most talented player on the defense (Polamalu, Farrior, Porter, Aaron Smith)...but he is valuable to making that defense work.


I am not arguing this point-- Gretzky had the best career. My initial statement was you can make a case for Lemieux to be, overall, more dominating at his peak.

[GreenMonster]

Originally Posted by Brian Vogel

I am not arguing this point-- Gretzky had the best career. My initial statement was you can make a case for Lemieux to be, overall, more dominating at his peak.

I can see where your going with this but no. Gretzky's best 5 year run was still better than Lemieux. Lemieux was a better 2 way player, but Gretzky no doubt the better passer and about equal on scoring.

1036 points in 5 years is down-right scary..

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Roy is, was, and always will be a bitch. Talented? Yes. But a bitch nonetheless...

He can't hear you, he has two Stanley Cup Rings in his ears.

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by Brian Vogel

So how can you argue that Gretz is the best ever because he won 9 Harts in 10 years...and then say Rice is the best ever DESPITE never winning one MVP? Gretz was a great player, therefore won MVPs. But winning MVPs does not make you a great player. See Kurt Warner.

Never said Jerry Rice was the best ever, you did. I'm asking YOU why YOU say he's the best ever.

Maybe you should reread this thread from the beginning. I don't think that Gretzky's 9 Hart Trophies ARE the reason he's better, I've stated several times why I think Wayne is better...I just think it helps his case when whoever votes for those awards recognized him as being the MVP for NINE years straight. That's NINE straight years...that's a pretty impressive peak period. Lemieux didn't even play for NINE straight seasons.

Originally Posted by Brian Vogel

A player can be the most valuable to his team without being it's premier player. I realize this is not a league-wide situation etc, but Casey Hamtpon (Steelers NT) was recognized by his teammates as team MVP. He is not the most talented player on the defense (Polamalu, Farrior, Porter, Aaron Smith)...but he is valuable to making that defense work.

Now, whether you agree with how the award is given out is not the issue here, because they are never going to give the Hart to a shot blocking defenseman who scores 5 goals...you'll never see it, even if you think he's the reason his team won the division.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

He can't hear you, he has two Stanley Cup Rings in his ears.

I can think of another place he could stick those Stanley Cup rings...

Just because it makes me happen to mention it...

Roy's last game as a Montreal Canadien:

December 2, 1995. Roy let in 9 goals on 26 shots before being benched in a 12-1 shellacking by the Detroit Red Wings.

Roy's last playoff game against the Wings:

Game 7 of the 2002 Western Conference finals. Roy allows 6 goals on 16 shots before being benched in a 7-0 shellacking by... you guessed it, the Detroit Red Wings.

He who laughs last, laughs best.

Hee hee!

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by johnnyshaka

Never said Jerry Rice was the best ever, you did. I'm asking YOU why YOU say he's the best ever.

Maybe you should reread this thread from the beginning. I don't think that Gretzky's 9 Hart Trophies ARE the reason he's better, I've stated several times why I think Wayne is better...I just think it helps his case when whoever votes for those awards recognized him as being the MVP for NINE years straight. That's NINE straight years...that's a pretty impressive peak period. Lemieux didn't even play for NINE straight seasons.

But I believe you agreed Rice was better than Warner, eventhough Warner has 2 more MVPs than him. No?

I'm reading it as 'Gretz is better because other people said he was better 9 out of 10 years.' Maybe that was not your intention, but that was my interpretation.

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by Brian Vogel

But I believe you agreed Rice was better than Warner, eventhough Warner has 2 more MVPs than him. No?

Nope, not once did I agree that Rice was better than Warner. What I DID say is that Rice is a better WR than Warner, but I also said that Warner was a better QB than Rice. You are the one who said that Rice was the better player and I'm still waiting to hear why you say he is better than Warner and the best receiver ever.

Originally Posted by Brian Vogel

I'm reading it as 'Gretz is better because other people said he was better 9 out of 10 years.' Maybe that was not your intention, but that was my interpretation.

I said it HELPS HIS CASE...it's right there, in plain english, no interpretation necessary.

Again, maybe you should reread the thread...from the beginning...because I stated, several times, why I think Gretzky is the best ever.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

This poll is silly... Howe and Orr should be on the list as well as Sawchuck.

Agreed. Rocket too.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by johnnyshaka

I said it HELPS HIS CASE...it's right there, in plain english, no interpretation necessary.

Again, maybe you should reread the thread...from the beginning...because I stated, several times, why I think Gretzky is the best ever.

Here's what I read:

Oh...I don't think that this has been mentioned yet...but 9 Hart Trophies (MVP) in 10 years compared to 2. I'd say that's pretty dominent.

[timmae]

guys... this isn't private ryan here... let the football analogy die please.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by timmae

guys... this isn't private ryan here... let the football analogy die please.

I don't think Pvt Ryan ever won an MVP...

[BuffaloHuskey]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

I'd just like to say that there are some really, really terrible arguments being made in this thread.

This quote in reference to Hasek and Dryden being considerede is a terrible statement. How can you discount these guys from being included in the argument when combined they have 11 Vezinas? I had the pleasure of watching first handm Hasek goaltend for some god awful Sabres teams and there is no way you can tell me that he was not one of the best players ever. He carried that team on his back for years and was the only reason they made the playoffs during the years he was there. The lack of success they have had since he left is evidence of that. Thankfully we now have another great netminder in Ryan Miller who will be a superstar in the league and should be starting in goal for team USA.

Dryden, although playing behind some awesome defensemen has stats which allow him to be in the discussion.

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by Brian Vogel

But I believe you agreed Rice was better than Warner, eventhough Warner has 2 more MVPs than him. No?

I'm reading IT as 'Gretz is better because other people said he was better 9 out of 10 years.' Maybe that was not your intention, but that was my interpretation.

So, what is IT referring to?? Are you referring to the quote you included in this post, which would make sense. Or are you referring to a post on another page because I'm really getting confused here?? Once you get that sorted out, let me know.

And, I'm still waiting to see why Jerry Rice is the best WR ever...on what grounds??

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by BuffaloHuskey

This quote in reference to Hasek and Dryden being considerede is a terrible statement. How can you discount these guys from being included in the argument when combined they have 11 Vezinas? I had the pleasure of watching first handm Hasek goaltend for some god awful Sabres teams and there is no way you can tell me that he was not one of the best players ever. He carried that team on his back for years and was the only reason they made the playoffs during the years he was there. The lack of success they have had since he left is evidence of that. Thankfully we now have another great netminder in Ryan Miller who will be a superstar in the league and should be starting in goal for team USA.

Dryden, although playing behind some awesome defensemen has stats which allow him to be in the discussion.

Wow, I like Miller and all, but superstar? I think you have yer hopes set a little too "hasek" high here. miller is a solid starter among goaltenders, but he's going to have to show me a LOT more "spine like a slinky" moves before I'll buy him as the cornerstone of the team.

I'm still a Biron fan too though, I thought matin would be another hasek at one time too, but he's slipped a lot. I'm loving this season for the Sabres though.

Let's Avenge the "foot in the crease" fleecing!

[bbor]

Miller not being on the US olympic team still mystifies me.....

[Suburban Rhythm]

I've quoted this line in several responses already:

Oh...I don't think that this has been mentioned yet...but 9 Hart Trophies (MVP) in 10 years compared to 2. I'd say that's pretty dominent.

Nowhere in there do you say

I said it HELPS HIS CASE...it's right there, in plain english, no interpretation necessary.

And I am not sure where I said Jerry Rice was the best WR ever. I only questioned if Kurt Warner was a better player than him, being Warner has 2 MVPs and Rice has none. Plus, there would be a difference between the best WR ever and best football player ever.


We will always disagree and interpret these differently...

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by BuffaloHuskey

This quote in reference to Hasek and Dryden being considerede is a terrible statement. How can you discount these guys from being included in the argument when combined they have 11 Vezinas? I had the pleasure of watching first handm Hasek goaltend for some god awful Sabres teams and there is no way you can tell me that he was not one of the best players ever. He carried that team on his back for years and was the only reason they made the playoffs during the years he was there. The lack of success they have had since he left is evidence of that. Thankfully we now have another great netminder in Ryan Miller who will be a superstar in the league and should be starting in goal for team USA.

Dryden, although playing behind some awesome defensemen has stats which allow him to be in the discussion.

You could make a case for Hasek as the top goalie of all time. It might be a bit of a stretch when you look at the careers of guys like Roy and Sawchuk among others, but it's not unreasonable.

But greatest player of all time? Alongside Gretzky, Orr, Howe and Lemeiux? Not even close. Sorry, but you're wearing your homer goggles if you think he belongs in that group.

And Dryden isn't even a serious candidate for best goalie. If Hasek isn't in the best player ballpark, Dryden isn't even in the same zip code.

[Johnny93g]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Roy's last game in the NHL:

Game 7 of the 2002 Western Conference finals. Roy allows 6 goals on 16 shots before being benched in a 7-0 shellacking by... you guessed it, the Detroit Red Wings.

He who laughs last, laughs best.

Hee hee!

Roy's last NHL game was an ot loss to the Wild in game 7 of the Minnesota/Colorado 1st round playoff series. Im 99.9% sure of this. Andrew Burnette scored.

[BuffaloHuskey]

Comparison of Roy vs. Hasek

Career GA Hasek 2.22 Roy 2.54
Career Shutouts Hasek 67 and counting Roy 66
Vezina Trophies Hasek 6, Roy 3
Stanely Cups - Roy 3, Hasek 1
Winning % - Roy 63%, Hasek 62%
Save % - Hasek 92.4% Roy 91%

I think a majority of people in this forum would say that Roy is the best goaltender ever (which of course in influenced by Canadian bias on the game the same way American born players in baseball are more hyped than Latinos). So why would the best goaltender ever not be considered in the best players argument. That does not make a whole lot of sense to me.

The stats above seem to favor Hasek as the better goalie between Hasek and Roy, especially factoring how weak the Sabres talent was during most of Hasek's tenure but it is close and debatable. Based on the stats, it appears to me that Hasek is the better of the two goalies and thus the best goalie ever. I just don't think you can dismiss the best player at his position from being in the argument of best player (I am not saying is the best player but I think he would be rightfully included.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Johnny93g

Roy's last NHL game was an ot loss to the Wild in game 7 of the Minnesota/Colorado 1st round playoff series. Im 99.9% sure of this. Andrew Burnette scored.

You should 100% sure, as you're quite right. He did play an entire season after his embarassing blowout loss to the Wings in '02. Problem with living in Europe all that time. Things get quite foggy.

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by Brian Vogel

And I am not sure where I said Jerry Rice was the best WR ever. I only questioned if Kurt Warner was a better player than him, being Warner has 2 MVPs and Rice has none. Plus, there would be a difference between the best WR ever and best football player ever.

I think this covers it.

Originally Posted by Brian Vogel

But he is no doubt the greatest WR ever, and head and shoulders above plenty of other guys who have won MVPs.

Originally Posted by Brian Vogel

I've quoted this line in several responses already:

Nowhere in there do you say

No kidding, because you should probably be looking at the quote you originally quoted when you made your comment about interpretation.

So, I went looking for what the Hart trophy was actually for and it turns out that on several sites it says it's for the MVP of the league and other sites say it is for the MVP of their team. Interesting. So, if the first definition is true, would the MVP in terms of the entire league not mean the best player in the league??

Also, if you look at the stats of the winners, of the last 45 years or so, 27 of the 45 winners led the league in points (or GAA for goalies)...including all of Wayne's seasons, but one, and both of Mario's. So, if you lead the league in points and won the Hart Trophy as the MVP of either the league or your team, would it be fair to assume that during those seasons when both of these conditions are true, the Hart Trophy winner was the best player in the league??

[Johnny93g]

You know, id take Terry Sawchuck over both Roy and Hasek every day of the week, but i dont think any goalie has been good enough to be considered a better player then any of the big 4...

[BuffaloHuskey]

The reason I did not include Sawchuk in my comparision with Roy and Hasek is that he played in a different era, which would make it hard to compare his stats to the other two. From what I know of Sawchuk (mainly through my father's impressions) is that he was great as well.

[KJDelaney]

Originally Posted by BuffaloHuskey

This quote in reference to Hasek and Dryden being considerede is a terrible statement. How can you discount these guys from being included in the argument when combined they have 11 Vezinas? I had the pleasure of watching first handm Hasek goaltend for some god awful Sabres teams and there is no way you can tell me that he was not one of the best players ever. He carried that team on his back for years and was the only reason they made the playoffs during the years he was there. The lack of success they have had since he left is evidence of that. Thankfully we now have another great netminder in Ryan Miller who will be a superstar in the league and should be starting in goal for team USA.

Dryden, although playing behind some awesome defensemen has stats which allow him to be in the discussion.

If you allow Dryden, you also have to look at Tretiak from the old USSR team.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by johnnyshaka

I think this covers it.

You have me...I honestly don't remember typing that, but it's there...
Why is Rice the best? Yes, he has great stats, but there is also how it effected those around him. Did him drawing double teams make, leaving John Taylor in single coverage, make Taylor a better weapon? Did teams needing to leave safeties deep help Roger Craig, Ricky Watters, etc in the running game? Did Joe Montana/Steve Young benefit from him turning 5 yard slants into 75 yard TDs?

Originally Posted by johnnyshaka

No kidding, because you should probably be looking at the quote you originally quoted when you made your comment about interpretation.

But I was quoting the first one from when you originally posted it. THAT was where my argument was....yes you clarified it later.

Originally Posted by johnnyshaka

So, I went looking for what the Hart trophy was actually for and it turns out that on several sites it says it's for the MVP of the league and other sites say it is for the MVP of their team. Interesting. So, if the first definition is true, would the MVP in terms of the entire league not mean the best player in the league??

Also, if you look at the stats of the winners, of the last 45 years or so, 27 of the 45 winners led the league in points (or GAA for goalies)...including all of Wayne's seasons, but one, and both of Mario's. So, if you lead the league in points and won the Hart Trophy as the MVP of either the league or your team, would it be fair to assume that during those seasons when both of these conditions are true, the Hart Trophy winner was the best player in the league??

This one...I guess we will forever disagree on. Just like an offensive lineman could never win the Heisman. He may very well be "the best" at what he does, and never make a mistake all year (yeah, I know, not plausible, but for the argument). But he'd never be called the best player in the country. That teams QB/RB will have excellent numbers, but without this lineman, it never happens. Who is more valuable to his team?

Just like you said early a Dmen who scores a small number of goals and blocks alot of shots would never win the Hart. Because there is no stat to base his importance on, he won't be seen as the "best" player, but his performance on the ice can make him the most "valuable".

[Dr. Sak]

For those who couldnt or didnt watch the game. You can see the Lemieux tribute below...

http://www.smart-guys-sports.com/?p=383

[Dr. Sak]

Another picture from the game...about the next great one in pittsburgh

hxxp://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e71/Ronin317/fivehole12506.jpg