Who is the best hockey player ever?

WSUCougar · 01-24-2006, 01:30 PM

Let the masses decide.

Bee · 01-24-2006, 01:38 PM

I can't imagine this being very close...

WSUCougar · 01-24-2006, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bee

I can't imagine this being very close...

I would tend to agree, but I've heard passionate arguments for Lemieux in the past. We shall see, BeeHopper.

rkmsuf · 01-24-2006, 01:40 PM

Nikolai Khabibulin

Honolulu_Blue · 01-24-2006, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

I would tend to agree, but I've heard passionate arguments for Lemieux in the past. We shall see, BeeHopper.

And I've heard passionate arguments for Bobby Orr and Gordie Howe. We shall indeed see, WSUCougarHopper.

Bee · 01-24-2006, 01:42 PM

For the record, I prefer SkyBee.

bbor · 01-24-2006, 01:43 PM

Bobby Orr was the best ever.

WSUCougar · 01-24-2006, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbor

Bobby Orr was the best ever.

Another country heard from!

bbor · 01-24-2006, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

And I've heard passionate arguments for Bobby Orr and Gordie Howe. We shall indeed see, WSUCougarHopper.

What about Klima?

DeToxRox · 01-24-2006, 01:45 PM

I'd say Bobby Orr was the best ever.

He's like the Gail Sayers in the Running Back debate.

If he didn't retire at 32, no one would ever touch the records he set for defensemen.

Honolulu_Blue · 01-24-2006, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbor

What about Klima?

A strong case could be made. Amazing offensive talent. Crazy antics. Wonderfully bushy mullet. Cool helmet. All the elements are there and then some!

johnnyshaka · 01-24-2006, 01:53 PM

Not to slight Howe or Lemieux, but if you put the two of them next to Gretzky in a lineup and then ask somebody who has no idea about hockey who the best hockey player of the three of them is...I assure you Gretz doesn't get a single look. Guys like Howe and Lemieux should dominate any physical sport they play because they have been born with all the physical tools to facilitate that.

Gretzky, on the other hand, used what he had and DOMINATED the game in every way despite not being the biggest, or strongest, or fastest guy on the ice.

Now, Bobby Orr, I could listen to an argument about him being one of the greatest as he really revolutionized how defensemen play the game.

SFL Cat · 01-24-2006, 02:15 PM

What is this hockey you speak of?

ISiddiqui · 01-24-2006, 02:16 PM

This poll is silly... Howe and Orr should be on the list as well as Sawchuck.

Though Gretz kills them all.

rkmsuf · 01-24-2006, 02:17 PM

Reggie Dunlop

timmae · 01-24-2006, 02:19 PM

this poll is indeed silly... if you even have to ask you just don't get it. No one will ever touch what one of these guys did... never. Up until a few days ago I put Wilt's 100 close to 99's point total. Not now... no one will ever get even that close.

Johnny93g · 01-24-2006, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

This poll is silly... Howe and Orr should be on the list as well as Sawchuck.

Though Gretz kills them all.

Any discussion of the best ever must include both Howe and Orr. I would also include Maurice Richard. With that said, i say Gretzky is the best ever, followed by Orr, Howe, Lemiuex and Richard.

primelord · 01-24-2006, 02:29 PM

I have always thought this debate is much closer than most people think it is. I think the biggest thing that hurt Lemieux is all the time he missed because of injury/cancer. In pure numbers no one stacks up with Gretzky. However his prime was in an ERA that produced FAR more offense on the whole than Lemieux's prime. Granted they overlap, but Gretzkys 90 goal, 150 assist seasons came in the offensive period and on some absolutely ridculously talented Oilers teams.

Super Mario doesn't have the total numbers that Gretzky does, but when Gretzky finished he finished with an average of 1.9 points per game for his career. Mario is at 1.88 points per game going into this season. Now certainly Gretzky played a little too long and brought his average down some, but at the same time he again played in a more offenive ERA in his prime.

In the end of Lemieux doesn't miss so much time I think the argument between the two is very close. Lemieux would have been much closer in terms of total production and he was still getting better in 89 when he had his 199 point season. With all that being said I think Gretzky is the better player, but as I said I think the debate should be much closer than it is.

Kevin · 01-24-2006, 02:29 PM

Maurice Richard

(I am biased)

Honolulu_Blue · 01-24-2006, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

What is this hockey you speak of?

Wait. Is this someone posting in a clearly identified hockey thread about how they hate hockey or think hockey is an irrelevant sport that no one cares or knows about? Is that what this is?

Quite hillarious, not to mention terribly original.

VPI97 · 01-24-2006, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Reggie Dunlop

Eddie Shore

Old time hockey

rkmsuf · 01-24-2006, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Wait. Is this someone posting in a clearly identified hockey thread about how they hate hockey or think hockey is an irrelevant sport that no one cares or knows about? Is that what this is?

Quite hillarious, not to mention terribly original.

At least I was subtle with my cool name and slapshot references.

primelord · 01-24-2006, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin

Maurice Richard

(I am biased)

I would be ok with Rocket being included in a discussion of who the best goal scorer ever was. Although I still wouldn't say he is even that, but as far as overall hockey player he just doesn't stack up.

ISiddiqui · 01-24-2006, 02:33 PM

I think Jean Beliveau is in the discussion somewhere, but further down (though ahead of, say, Messier).

Quote:

Originally Posted by primelord

I think the biggest thing that hurt Lemieux is all the time he missed because of injury/cancer.

Perhaps, but that's a part of the game. You could say that Terrell Davis would have been better than Jim Brown or Walter Payton if he didn't run into injury problems, but you'll never know. For the few years he was healthy, he was just as good. I realize Lemieux played far more years, but the concept is the same.

As for the 'offensive era' argument against Gretzky. You can easily argue that the Oilers team was responsible for the booming offensive of the 80s. In the late 70s with the Flyers and early 80s with the Islanders, you didn't have a very offensive era. The Oilers just scored like crazy and other teams had to open it up to even compete with them.

Hurst2112 · 01-24-2006, 02:34 PM

Um, Howe. Hands down.

timmae · 01-24-2006, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by primelord

I have always thought this debate is much closer than most people think it is. I think the biggest thing that hurt Lemieux is all the time he missed because of injury/cancer. In pure numbers no one stacks up with Gretzky. However his prime was in an ERA that produced FAR more offense on the whole than Lemieux's prime. Granted they overlap, but Gretzkys 90 goal, 150 assist seasons came in the offensive period and on some absolutely ridculously talented Oilers teams.

Super Mario doesn't have the total numbers that Gretzky does, but when Gretzky finished he finished with an average of 1.9 points per game for his career. Mario is at 1.88 points per game going into this season. Now certainly Gretzky played a little too long and brought his average down some, but at the same time he again played in a more offenive ERA in his prime.

In the end of Lemieux doesn't miss so much time I think the argument between the two is very close. Lemieux would have been much closer in terms of total production and he was still getting better in 89 when he had his 199 point season. With all that being said I think Gretzky is the better player, but as I said I think the debate should be much closer than it is.

I understand what you are getting at... just wanted to mention that if you are comparing points for a game for both you cannot take Gretzky's latter years into account. I can only assume that Lemieux would have declined some in his last years. I am also not a fan of what-ifs. Lets compare actual known quantities. Also, it's hard if not impossible to estimate what Lemieux would have done with better talent around him. he didn't have it so that doesn't enter into my equation.

I agree that the chasm is not as wide as most think, but the chasm is still there.

Honolulu_Blue · 01-24-2006, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

At least I was subtle with my cool name and slapshot references.

Slapshot references are funny. You're ok here, smurf. You're ooookay.

rkmsuf · 01-24-2006, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Slapshot references are funny. You're ok here, smurf. You're ooookay.

It's cool to be loved by the hockeykrishnas.

Maple Leafs · 01-24-2006, 03:04 PM

Not even close.

Maybe... maybe you could argue that if Lemeiux had stayed healthy he could have matched Gretzky. But he didn't.

astrosfan64 · 01-24-2006, 03:09 PM

You have to have Ore and Howe on the list.

vtbub · 01-24-2006, 03:14 PM

I'd have him equal with Orr for 3rd. They both dominated their era's, but were injured too much. Where Mario shines is in the department of what he gave back to the game.

As a player, he is 98% of Wayne.

primelord · 01-24-2006, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I think Jean Beliveau is in the discussion somewhere, but further down (though ahead of, say, Messier).

Perhaps, but that's a part of the game. You could say that Terrell Davis would have been better than Jim Brown or Walter Payton if he didn't run into injury problems, but you'll never know. For the few years he was healthy, he was just as good. I realize Lemieux played far more years, but the concept is the same.

As for the 'offensive era' argument against Gretzky. You can easily argue that the Oilers team was responsible for the booming offensive of the 80s. In the late 70s with the Flyers and early 80s with the Islanders, you didn't have a very offensive era. The Oilers just scored like crazy and other teams had to open it up to even compete with them.

To answer the first part of your question I wasn't using Lemieux's injuries as an excuse. I was just stating a fact that it is what has hurt him the most in this debate. So I am not arguing that we should excuse it. I was just pointing out that in many people's minds there is no comparison between the two and I think that is the biggest reason why.

And for the offensive ERA I didn't have time to run through the numbers as thoroughly as I wanted to, but from 80 to 87 wehn Gretzky left the OIlers the league averaged 3.8 goals per game after you took out the Oilers production. I then started to run Lemeiuxs numbers. Between 86 and 85 which is as far as I got the league averaged 3.6 goals per game. And that was not even taking the Penguins out of the equation and they were geenrally mognth tops in the league in goals in the early 90s. Assuming I removed them it would likely be in the 3.5 range and would continue to fall after 95. So I think it is pretty clear to say Gretzky's prime was in a more offensive era even without the player's own teams in the mix.

MIJB#19 · 01-24-2006, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

What is this hockey you speak of?

hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hockey

primelord · 01-24-2006, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmae

I understand what you are getting at... just wanted to mention that if you are comparing points for a game for both you cannot take Gretzky's latter years into account. I can only assume that Lemieux would have declined some in his last years. I am also not a fan of what-ifs. Lets compare actual known quantities. Also, it's hard if not impossible to estimate what Lemieux would have done with better talent around him. he didn't have it so that doesn't enter into my equation.

I agree that the chasm is not as wide as most think, but the chasm is still there.

He has declined some in his last years. And that was taken into account in his numbers as well. If you were going to chop off some years on Gretzky then wouldn;t you need to estimate the prime years Lemieux missed? It's not fair in the averages to only take Gretzky's best years and not give Lemeiuex at least some credit for what he would have done if not missing so much time.

In the end I think it is best tp just say for the total number of games they played each player averaged X number of points. And again when Gretzky was averaging 2.5 points per game he was doing it in a more offensive period and on an insanely loaded team.

Sure it is impossible to say for certain how either player would have done if the roles had been reversed, but you have to make assuptions when you are having these debates. It is not fair to either player to not try and balance the situations out.

st.cronin · 01-24-2006, 05:28 PM

The only reason somebody would give an answer other than "Gretzky" is to show off their hockey knowledge. Gretzky is like Babe Ruth - everybody likes to argue that somebody else was better than him, but there's no agreement on who the main contender is.

timmae · 01-24-2006, 05:47 PM

a more interesting poll would be "Who's the best 'Goon' of all time?". Which, of course, the answer would be Bob Probert

Grammaticus · 01-24-2006, 08:42 PM

Is this a joke? Whoe other than Gretzky could you even think about as the greatest?

primelord · 01-24-2006, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

Is this a joke? Whoe other than Gretzky could you even think about as the greatest?

Mario Lemieux

Grammaticus · 01-24-2006, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by primelord

Mario Lemieux

Lemieux may be great, but he is not even close to the greatest.

mckerney · 01-24-2006, 08:53 PM

Phil Kessel

(I'm biased and an idiot)

Pumpy Tudors · 01-24-2006, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmae

a more interesting poll would be "Who's the best 'Goon' of all time?". Which, of course, the answer would be Bob Probert

comedy randy mckay response

Grammaticus · 01-24-2006, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmae

a more interesting poll would be "Who's the best 'Goon' of all time?". Which, of course, the answer would be Bob Probert

Kurt Rambis

Oh wait, wrong sport.

primelord · 01-24-2006, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

Lemieux may be great, but he is not even close to the greatest.

At least you are offering some supporting evidence.

This is the problem in these types of debates. In general the people who argue that Gretzky, Ruth and Jordan were the greatest of their respective sports never really give much of an argument. Those three are just generally considered the greatest and so the rest on that.

I have made what I think is a pretty solid argument to why Lemieux is in fact very close to Gretzky (although I too believe Gretzky still has the edge). What flaw do you see in my argument other than you just think Gretzky is the greatest?

vtbub · 01-24-2006, 10:18 PM

In the end, Lemieux averaged 1.88 points per game. What's more astonishing is the fact he only averaged 53.8 games per season and missed several more all together.

Dutch · 01-24-2006, 10:33 PM

I can't believe Steve Trout isn't totally dominating this poll.

MizzouRah · 01-24-2006, 10:33 PM

by stats, Gretzky of course, but I would have loved to see Lemieux play as many games as Gretzky did...

I they were both standing there, top shape, same age, etc.. I would draft Lemieux over Gretzky though.

bbor · 01-24-2006, 10:59 PM

Orr was +92 one season......that's f'n sick.

Raven Hawk · 01-25-2006, 01:58 AM

Yeah, but the definitive statistic tells all. Wayne Gretzky won 5 Lady Byng trophies to Bobby Orr's 0.

saldana · 01-25-2006, 02:11 AM

the only problem i have with bobby orr being in this conversation is that paul coffey, statistically, is so far above anything orr ever did as.

Mr. Wednesday · 01-25-2006, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbor

Orr was +92 one season......that's f'n sick.

And he was +124 in another IIRC, which is even sicker.

View Poll Results: Who?
Gretzky	113	73.86%
Lemieux	7	4.58%
Other	22	14.38%
Steve Trout	11	7.19%
Voters: 153. You may not vote on this poll

01-24-2006, 01:40 PM	#4
rkmsuf Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2001	Nikolai Khabibulin __________________ "Don't you have homes?" -- Judge Smales

01-24-2006, 01:43 PM	#7
bbor Pro Starter Join Date: May 2001 Location: toronto	Bobby Orr was the best ever. __________________ Pumpy Tudors Now that I've cracked and made that admission, I wonder if I'm only a couple of steps away from wanting to tongue-kiss Jaromir Jagr and give Bobby Clarke a blowjob.

01-24-2006, 02:16 PM	#14
ISiddiqui Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Decatur, GA	This poll is silly... Howe and Orr should be on the list as well as Sawchuck. Though Gretz kills them all. __________________ "A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams Last edited by ISiddiqui : 01-24-2006 at 02:16 PM.

01-24-2006, 02:17 PM	#15
rkmsuf Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2001	Reggie Dunlop __________________ "Don't you have homes?" -- Judge Smales

01-24-2006, 01:38 PM	#2
Bee Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fairfax, VA	I can't imagine this being very close...

01-24-2006, 01:42 PM	#6
Bee Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fairfax, VA	For the record, I prefer SkyBee.

01-24-2006, 01:45 PM	#10
DeToxRox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Michigan	I'd say Bobby Orr was the best ever. He's like the Gail Sayers in the Running Back debate. If he didn't retire at 32, no one would ever touch the records he set for defensemen.

01-24-2006, 01:53 PM	#12
johnnyshaka College Benchwarmer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Edmonton, AB	Not to slight Howe or Lemieux, but if you put the two of them next to Gretzky in a lineup and then ask somebody who has no idea about hockey who the best hockey player of the three of them is...I assure you Gretz doesn't get a single look. Guys like Howe and Lemieux should dominate any physical sport they play because they have been born with all the physical tools to facilitate that. Gretzky, on the other hand, used what he had and DOMINATED the game in every way despite not being the biggest, or strongest, or fastest guy on the ice. Now, Bobby Orr, I could listen to an argument about him being one of the greatest as he really revolutionized how defensemen play the game.

01-24-2006, 02:15 PM	#13
SFL Cat College Starter Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: South Florida	What is this hockey you speak of?

01-24-2006, 02:19 PM	#16
timmae College Starter Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Chicago	this poll is indeed silly... if you even have to ask you just don't get it. No one will ever touch what one of these guys did... never. Up until a few days ago I put Wilt's 100 close to 99's point total. Not now... no one will ever get even that close. __________________ Interactive OOTP 15 Dynasty (Single Season) CHAMPION!! Oh yeah... Happy New York Day everyone!

01-24-2006, 02:29 PM	#18
primelord Pro Rookie Join Date: Oct 2000	I have always thought this debate is much closer than most people think it is. I think the biggest thing that hurt Lemieux is all the time he missed because of injury/cancer. In pure numbers no one stacks up with Gretzky. However his prime was in an ERA that produced FAR more offense on the whole than Lemieux's prime. Granted they overlap, but Gretzkys 90 goal, 150 assist seasons came in the offensive period and on some absolutely ridculously talented Oilers teams. Super Mario doesn't have the total numbers that Gretzky does, but when Gretzky finished he finished with an average of 1.9 points per game for his career. Mario is at 1.88 points per game going into this season. Now certainly Gretzky played a little too long and brought his average down some, but at the same time he again played in a more offenive ERA in his prime. In the end of Lemieux doesn't miss so much time I think the argument between the two is very close. Lemieux would have been much closer in terms of total production and he was still getting better in 89 when he had his 199 point season. With all that being said I think Gretzky is the better player, but as I said I think the debate should be much closer than it is.

01-24-2006, 02:29 PM	#19
Kevin High School JV Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Nova Scotia	Maurice Richard (I am biased) __________________ It seems more like today than it did all day yesterday.

01-24-2006, 02:34 PM	#25
Hurst2112 College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Minneapolis	Um, Howe. Hands down. __________________ http://www.myspace.com/longliveanalog

01-24-2006, 03:04 PM	#29
Maple Leafs Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2002	Not even close. Maybe... maybe you could argue that if Lemeiux had stayed healthy he could have matched Gretzky. But he didn't. __________________ Down Goes Brown: Toronto Maple Leafs Humor and Analysis

01-24-2006, 03:09 PM	#30
astrosfan64 College Prospect Join Date: Oct 2004	You have to have Ore and Howe on the list.

01-24-2006, 03:14 PM	#31
vtbub College Starter Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Burlington, VT USA	I'd have him equal with Orr for 3rd. They both dominated their era's, but were injured too much. Where Mario shines is in the department of what he gave back to the game. As a player, he is 98% of Wayne. __________________

01-24-2006, 05:28 PM	#35
st.cronin General Manager Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: New Mexico	The only reason somebody would give an answer other than "Gretzky" is to show off their hockey knowledge. Gretzky is like Babe Ruth - everybody likes to argue that somebody else was better than him, but there's no agreement on who the main contender is. __________________ co-commish: bb-bbcf.net knives out

01-24-2006, 05:47 PM	#36
timmae College Starter Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Chicago	a more interesting poll would be "Who's the best 'Goon' of all time?". Which, of course, the answer would be Bob Probert __________________ Interactive OOTP 15 Dynasty (Single Season) CHAMPION!! Oh yeah... Happy New York Day everyone!

01-24-2006, 08:42 PM	#37
Grammaticus Pro Rookie Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Tennessee	Is this a joke? Whoe other than Gretzky could you even think about as the greatest?

01-24-2006, 08:53 PM	#40
mckerney Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	Phil Kessel (I'm biased and an idiot)

01-24-2006, 10:18 PM	#44
vtbub College Starter Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Burlington, VT USA	In the end, Lemieux averaged 1.88 points per game. What's more astonishing is the fact he only averaged 53.8 games per season and missed several more all together. __________________

01-24-2006, 10:33 PM	#45
Dutch "Dutch" Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Tampa, FL	I can't believe Steve Trout isn't totally dominating this poll.

01-24-2006, 10:33 PM	#46
MizzouRah Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Troy, Mo	by stats, Gretzky of course, but I would have loved to see Lemieux play as many games as Gretzky did... I they were both standing there, top shape, same age, etc.. I would draft Lemieux over Gretzky though.

01-24-2006, 10:59 PM	#47
bbor Pro Starter Join Date: May 2001 Location: toronto	Orr was +92 one season......that's f'n sick. __________________ Pumpy Tudors Now that I've cracked and made that admission, I wonder if I'm only a couple of steps away from wanting to tongue-kiss Jaromir Jagr and give Bobby Clarke a blowjob.

01-25-2006, 01:58 AM	#48
Raven Hawk College Starter Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Thunderdome	Yeah, but the definitive statistic tells all. Wayne Gretzky won 5 Lady Byng trophies to Bobby Orr's 0. __________________ Owner of The Shreveport Pride in The CFL

01-25-2006, 02:11 AM	#49
saldana Pro Starter Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Bethlehem, Pa	the only problem i have with bobby orr being in this conversation is that paul coffey, statistically, is so far above anything orr ever did as. Last edited by saldana : 01-25-2006 at 02:20 AM.

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