Don't Drink And Drive - Page 2

Fritz · 04-17-2003, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ksyrup

The way to solve a problem is to excuse similar problems that get more attention. Great thinking.

As a society we have said that the "similar" problems are not problems at all.

CHEMICAL SOLDIER · 04-17-2003, 12:54 PM

Its so sad that something like this happens on a daily basis .
Such a young promising life extinguished at the blink of an eye .....t

sachmo71 · 04-17-2003, 01:17 PM

Chem, she's still alive.

Ksyrup · 04-17-2003, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fritz
As a society we have said that the "similar" problems are not problems at all.

No, we haven't. People aren't educated enough to understand what the problem is. Lack of response does not always equal acceptance of a practice, and certainly not a "knowing" acceptance in any event. As with most things, it will take the death of a well-known personality or an overwhelmingly tragic occasion to get people to recognize the issue.

But taking the attitude that driving drunk is OK because driving while impaired by other means is not well-publicized, is not a solution at all. That's like suggesting that we should let people die of AIDS because, in your opinion, AIDs treatment gets more publicity than colon cancer treatment. How does that help either situation?

Maple Leafs · 04-17-2003, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CHEMICAL SOLDIER
Such a young promising life extinguished at the blink of an eye ....

This is either a touching sentiment, or the most tasteless joke I've seen here in weeks.

Fritz · 04-17-2003, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ksyrup
No, we haven't. People aren't educated enough to understand what the problem is. Lack of response does not always equal acceptance of a practice, and certainly not a "knowing" acceptance in any event. As with most things, it will take the death of a well-known personality or an overwhelmingly tragic occasion to get people to recognize the issue.

We are teetering on a "no it isn't" "yes it is" argument.

Everything I see points to a society that has made a value decision and is tolerant of impaired driving. Hell, in some cases we reward people for impaired driving. I don't feel this is an education issue, but more of a value issue. I am not going to demonize the drunk driver for being on the seedy side of a tolerated behavior.

KWhit · 04-17-2003, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fritz
Hell, in some cases we reward people for impaired driving.

How so?

Fritz · 04-17-2003, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KWhit
How so?

Work late, drive to work early and groggy - you are hard charger!

Sick mom takes some allergey pills and takes the soccer kids to their game - SUPERMOM!

FOFC poster takes his Ziac every morning and then drives to work. Gets paid.

KWhit · 04-17-2003, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fritz
Work late, drive to work early and groggy - you are hard charger!

Sick mom takes some allergey pills and takes the soccer kids to their game - SUPERMOM!

FOFC poster takes his Ziac every morning and then drives to work. Gets paid.

Damn! You've convinced me.

Fritz · 04-17-2003, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KWhit
Damn! You've convinced me.

no smiley.... don't know how to take this....

Ksyrup · 04-17-2003, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fritz
We are teetering on a "no it isn't" "yes it is" argument.

Everything I see points to a society that has made a value decision and is tolerant of impaired driving. Hell, in some cases we reward people for impaired driving. I don't feel this is an education issue, but more of a value issue. I am not going to demonize the drunk driver for being on the seedy side of a tolerated behavior.

So it's OK to do illegal drugs and people who do drugs shouldn't be held accountable for doing drugs or for the damage/injuries they cause, because society has determined that they are on the "seedy side" of a tolerated behavior in other circumstances - alcohol, pain medication, etc.?

That's a mighty slippery slope.

Fritz · 04-17-2003, 02:06 PM

Oh no, I never said anything about accountability. You seem to keep adding stuff to broaden the discussion.

Ksyrup · 04-17-2003, 02:21 PM

Alright, throw out the "accountability" stuff. Certain drugs are illegal. Your position seems to be that doing illegal drugs is OK - and you would, if not condone it, permit it to occur, because society has determined that the users of certain drugs are on the "seedy side" of a tolerated behavior in other circumstances, such as alcohol, pain medication, etc.

Again, same conclusion from my end - that's a slippery slope. Why not permit murder, since killing is "justifiable" by law in certain circumstances? Laws exist for a reason - and should be enforced. That would include the laws in 35 states, I think it was, that would make the type of behavior you have pointed out illegal as well. We do not disagree about that. My problem is that your "solution" is no solution at all.

Fritz · 04-17-2003, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ksyrup
Alright, throw out the "accountability" stuff. Certain drugs are illegal. Your position seems to be that doing illegal drugs is OK - and you would, if not condone it, permit it to occur, because society has determined that the users of certain drugs are on the "seedy side" of a tolerated behavior in other circumstances, such as alcohol, pain medication, etc.

Again, same conclusion from my end - that's a slippery slope. Why not permit murder, since killing is "justifiable" by law in certain circumstances? Laws exist for a reason - and should be enforced. That would include the laws in 35 states, I think it was, that would make the type of behavior you have pointed out illegal as well. We do not disagree about that. My problem is that your "solution" is no solution at all.

I am not offering a solution. I am just saying that given the tollerance we have for impaired driving that I have a tollerance for driving drunk.

This doesn't mean I endorse it or that I want to legalize it, I just have a tolerence for it.

Butter · 04-17-2003, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fritz
I am just saying that given the tollerance we have for impaired driving...

I think your basic assumption is flawed, but I guess we'll just have to disagree. If most states declare something is illegal, I hardly think it is tolerated. DUI's are tolerated in some areas, not everyone who is arrested on suspicion ends up being prosecuted, especially if it is a first offense.

Craptacular · 04-17-2003, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fritz
I just have a tolerence for it.

Are you a member of a tavern league Fritz? Those are about the only people I know of that would tolerate drunk driving. I'm almost tempted to go punch some bar owners after some of the comments I've seen them make in my state lately.

Fritz · 04-17-2003, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Butter_of_69
I think your basic assumption is flawed, but I guess we'll just have to disagree. If most states declare something is illegal, I hardly think it is tolerated. DUI's are tolerated in some areas, not everyone who is arrested on suspicion ends up being prosecuted, especially if it is a first offense.

Don't look at the laws, look a the enforcement. Not just for this, for everything.

Ksyrup · 04-17-2003, 02:40 PM

Exactly. The legislatures of 35 states have specifically declared those acts to be illegal. I bet there are more general laws which could also arguably be used as enforcement mechanisms in other states, if necessary. Since the legislature is expressing the will of the "people"... those acts are not tolerated in the vast majority of states.

Enforcement is another issue.

Ksyrup · 04-17-2003, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fritz
Don't look at the laws, look a the enforcement. Not just for this, for everything.

Just so I get this straight, I think what you are saying is that you would tolerate non-enforcement of drunk driving laws since similar laws, to the extent they exist, are not being enforced against groggy/prescription-popping drivers? That's what I understand your position to be. And again, I say that if both are problems, the solution is not to ignore them equally, but to treat them equally.

Fritz · 04-17-2003, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Craptacular
Are you a member of a tavern league Fritz? Those are about the only people I know of that would tolerate drunk driving. I'm almost tempted to go punch some bar owners after some of the comments I've seen them make in my state lately.

I am not sure what a tavern league is.

Personally: I have driven drunk a handfull of times a long time ago. I don't drink and drive (or med and drive for that matter) because I am an exceptionally poor driver when not in my right mind.

I think most people don't get really fucked up and drive because they know it is dangerous (to themselves.) I think most people don't get a little drunk because they want to avoid legal problems.

Fritz · 04-17-2003, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ksyrup
Just so I get this straight, I think what you are saying is that you would tolerate non-enforcement of drunk driving laws since similar laws, to the extent they exist, are not being enforced against groggy/prescription-popping drivers? That's what I understand your position to be. And again, I say that if both are problems, the solution is not to ignore them equally, but to treat them equally.

Hear me now and believe me later...

I AM NOT PROPOSING A SOLUTION

04-17-2003, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ksyrup
Just so I get this straight, I think what you are saying is that you would tolerate non-enforcement of drunk driving laws since similar laws, to the extent they exist, are not being enforced against groggy/prescription-popping drivers? That's what I understand your position to be. And again, I say that if both are problems, the solution is not to ignore them equally, but to treat them equally.

I think everyone is closer to being on the same page than they realize. I never said drunk driving is okay or even acceptable. What I said is we should also crack down on the other impaired drivers on the roads and do so with as much passion as we have for stopping drunk drivers.

Society in general has little tolerance for drunk driving and neither do our laws. However, that is where the system and society is really flawed. If I am going home from an 18 hour shift and weaving on the road from being drowsy would a cop stop me if he saw me? Yeah, he would, but when he saw that I wasn't drunk he would tell me to buy some coffee, pull over and take a nap, or stop and exercise on the side of the road, or whatever it takes to get me alert again. He would NOT arrest me and take me to jail. That is the problem we see and the gist of our arguement.

I have one more question for you guys. Who is more dangerous driving down a freeway at 70 mph an awake drunk or someone who isn't awake at all?

HornsManiac

Ksyrup · 04-17-2003, 03:01 PM

I think that's the problem. You don't offer a solution, just a suggestion that because one is ignored, it's OK to ignore the other.

If either or both are problems, shouldn't we be looking for solutions?

Craptacular · 04-17-2003, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fritz
I am not sure what a tavern league is.

Sorry, the name might be a Wisconsin thing. I'm sure they have similar groups in other states. It's basically a lobbying group for bar owners.

Fritz · 04-17-2003, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ksyrup
I think that's the problem. You don't offer a solution, just a suggestion that because one is ignored, it's OK to ignore the other.

Do you want to keep fictionalizing my opinion?

Fritz · 04-17-2003, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Craptacular
Sorry, the name might be a Wisconsin thing. I'm sure they have similar groups in other states. It's basically a lobbying group for bar owners.

There are no bars in Virginia, just resturants.

I did manage a spirit selling resutrant for a while, but that is not where my opinion comes from.

Ksyrup · 04-17-2003, 03:26 PM

"relative to our societal apathy when it comes to impaired driving or driving with diminished capacity, I have no problem with drinking and driving."

Call it what you want, I call it like I see it.

Fritz · 04-17-2003, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ksyrup
"relative to our societal apathy when it comes to impaired driving or driving with diminished capacity, I have no problem with drinking and driving."

Call it what you want, I call it like I see it.

"relative to our societal apathy"

Ksyrup · 04-17-2003, 03:34 PM

Look, it's not my intention to argue over semantics. I think we both made our point and would agree that equal attention and enforcement on both issues is needed. My only beef with your entire theme is that you have "no problem" with one illegal act because another, similar illegal act is not being paid enough attention. That's all it boils down to.

AgPete · 04-17-2003, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Schmidty

Originally posted by AgPete:
So don't drink and drive or you'll make someone really, really ugly?

Are you always so insensitive?

That's the message I get from this. Let's parade poor little freak girl around to trumpet our cause! I feel terrible for that girl that she looks so hideous now that society will never accept her again. The first thing we look at is her disfigurement and realize how she will never be able to live a normal life. Shame on our society for being like that (me included), and shame on causes that pick a "freak of the year" to parade their cause!

Do I think only drunk drivers cause this type of injury? No. Hell, I blame the car as much as I do the drunk driver. How many cars do you know that combust that quickly causing those types of burns? (BTW, I wonder if they checked the automobile for defects.) We have soldiers coming back from the Persian Gulf that may look like this. What do we do for them? Like Fritz and Horns have mentioned, there are many, many other things that lead to irresponsible drinking.

Sorry, I just don't get the same kneejerk reaction after looking at the picture. That doesn't mean I don't feel for the poor little girl in the accident though.

rexalllsc · 04-17-2003, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AgPete
That's the message I get from this. Let's parade poor little freak girl around to trumpet our cause! I feel terrible for that girl that she looks so hideous now that society will never accept her again. The first thing we look at is her disfigurement and realize how she will never be able to live a normal life. Shame on our society for being like that (me included), and shame on causes that pick a "freak of the year" to parade their cause!

Do I think only drunk drivers cause this type of injury? No. Hell, I blame the car as much as I do the drunk driver. How many cars do you know that combust that quickly causing those types of burns? (BTW, I wonder if they checked the automobile for defects.) We have soldiers coming back from the Persian Gulf that may look like this. What do we do for them? Like Fritz and Horns have mentioned, there are many, many other things that lead to irresponsible drinking.

Sorry, I just don't get the same kneejerk reaction after looking at the picture. That doesn't mean I don't feel for the poor little girl in the accident though.

That's like blaming guns, and not the person pointing the gun. "I wonder if they checked the automobile for defects" WTF? IT'S AN OBJECT WEIGHING TWO TONS MOVING AT 60+ MPH.

Edited: Don't be a dipshit.

AgPete · 04-17-2003, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rexalllsc
That's like blaming guns, and not the person pointing the gun. "I wonder if they checked the automobile for defects" WTF? IT'S AN OBJECT WEIGHING TWO TONS MOVING AT 60+ MPH.

You're a fucking dipshit.

How many cars do you know that catch on fire that quickly during an accident? I'm not blaming the car, I'm saying this is a very rare situation. Obviously, your chances of causing this type of injury to someone after hitting them in a car, alcohol or no alcohol, is very, very low. And what do we do about the other unforunate souls that suffered these types of injuries in an auto accident but they weren't hit by a drunk driver? MADD or any other organization doesn't have to parade this poor girl around like a circus tent freak to stress their message. It's pretty obvious how stupid it is to drink and drive. The people that should get the message are going to drink and drive no matter what. They never learn until it's too late. Read my response again, I don't think you got the point.

rexalllsc · 04-17-2003, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AgPete
How many cars do you know that catch on fire that quickly during an accident? I'm not blaming the car, I'm saying this is a very rare situation. Obviously, your chances of causing this type of injury to someone after hitting them in a car, alcohol or no alcohol, is very, very low. And what do we do about the other unforunate souls that suffered these types of injuries in an auto accident but they weren't hit by a drunk driver? MADD or any other organization doesn't have to parade this poor girl around like a circus tent freak to stress their message. It's pretty obvious how stupid it is to drink and drive. The people that should get the message are going to drink and drive no matter what. They never learn until it's too late. Read my response again, I don't think you got the point.

The point is, driving drunk makes an already dangerous activity even more dangerous. To get into an accident and become deformed is horrible...to get into an accident and become deformed as a direct result of another persons negligence and selfishness is even worse.

THAT IS THE POINT.

AgPete · 04-17-2003, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rexalllsc
The point is, driving drunk makes an already dangerous activity even more dangerous. To get into an accident and become deformed is horrible...to get into an accident and become deformed as a direct result of another persons negligence and selfishness is even worse.

THAT IS THE POINT.

And I get it but I still think it's in poor taste to post this girl's pictures everywhere because you know it will make people gag. I'm sorry the guy that was paralyzed in a drunk driving accident wasn't enough shock media, or the picture of a tombstone that has an eight year old kid killed in a drunk driving accident. I wonder how much the organizations against drunk driving really care about this girl except that they can use her for shocking images.

Fritz · 04-17-2003, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rexalllsc
The point is, driving drunk makes an already dangerous activity even more dangerous. To get into an accident and become deformed is horrible...to get into an accident and become deformed as a direct result of another persons negligence and selfishness is even worse.

THAT IS THE POINT.

you are right! we should BAN people who are on many antihistamines from driving. selfish bastards!

people on most high blood pressure medication should lose their license as well as most asthmatics. Get pain medication or cough syrup from your doctor, lose your license for 10 days! Diagnosed with a sleep disorder, your driving privileges are revoked!

rexalllsc · 04-17-2003, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AgPete
And I get it but I still think it's in poor taste to post this girl's pictures everywhere because you know it will make people gag. I'm sorry the guy that was paralyzed in a drunk driving accident wasn't enough shock media, or the picture of a tombstone that has an eight year old kid killed in a drunk driving accident. I wonder how much the organizations against drunk driving really care about this girl except that they can use her for shocking images.

What would you say is an effective campaign against drunk driving, then? Reality is usually the best, IMO.

rexalllsc · 04-17-2003, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fritz
you are right! we should BAN people who are on many antihistamines from driving. selfish bastards!

people on most high blood pressure medication should lose their license as well as most asthmatics. Get pain medication or cough syrup from your doctor, lose your license for 10 days! Diagnosed with a sleep disorder, your driving privileges are revoked!

Medications which will make you drowsy have warnings against driving while taking them.

Driving is a privelege, not a right.

Fritz · 04-17-2003, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rexalllsc
Medications which will make you drowsy have warnings against driving while taking them.

Driving is a privelege, not a right.

I am glad you agree

Craptacular · 04-17-2003, 10:30 PM

AgPete, if you read some articles about her, it seems she's quite motivated to promote this cause herself. It's not just a case of some radical group exploiting her.

04-17-2003, 12:54 PM	#52
CHEMICAL SOLDIER College Starter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Henderson, Nevada	Its so sad that something like this happens on a daily basis . Such a young promising life extinguished at the blink of an eye .....t __________________ Toujour Pret

04-17-2003, 02:06 PM	#62
Fritz Lethargic Hooligan Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: hello kitty found my wallet at a big tent revival and returned it with all the cash missing	Oh no, I never said anything about accountability. You seem to keep adding stuff to broaden the discussion. __________________ donkey, donkey, walk a little faster

04-17-2003, 02:21 PM	#63
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	Alright, throw out the "accountability" stuff. Certain drugs are illegal. Your position seems to be that doing illegal drugs is OK - and you would, if not condone it, permit it to occur, because society has determined that the users of certain drugs are on the "seedy side" of a tolerated behavior in other circumstances, such as alcohol, pain medication, etc. Again, same conclusion from my end - that's a slippery slope. Why not permit murder, since killing is "justifiable" by law in certain circumstances? Laws exist for a reason - and should be enforced. That would include the laws in 35 states, I think it was, that would make the type of behavior you have pointed out illegal as well. We do not disagree about that. My problem is that your "solution" is no solution at all. __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete."

04-17-2003, 02:40 PM	#68
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	Exactly. The legislatures of 35 states have specifically declared those acts to be illegal. I bet there are more general laws which could also arguably be used as enforcement mechanisms in other states, if necessary. Since the legislature is expressing the will of the "people"... those acts are not tolerated in the vast majority of states. Enforcement is another issue. __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete."

04-17-2003, 03:01 PM	#73
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	I think that's the problem. You don't offer a solution, just a suggestion that because one is ignored, it's OK to ignore the other. If either or both are problems, shouldn't we be looking for solutions? __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete."

04-17-2003, 01:17 PM	#53
sachmo71 The boy who cried Trout Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: TX	Chem, she's still alive.

04-17-2003, 03:26 PM	#77
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	"relative to our societal apathy when it comes to impaired driving or driving with diminished capacity, I have no problem with drinking and driving." Call it what you want, I call it like I see it. __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete."

04-17-2003, 03:34 PM	#79
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	Look, it's not my intention to argue over semantics. I think we both made our point and would agree that equal attention and enforcement on both issues is needed. My only beef with your entire theme is that you have "no problem" with one illegal act because another, similar illegal act is not being paid enough attention. That's all it boils down to. __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete."

04-17-2003, 10:30 PM	#89
Craptacular College Starter Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: The Mad City, WI	AgPete, if you read some articles about her, it seems she's quite motivated to promote this cause herself. It's not just a case of some radical group exploiting her.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)