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Mos1ted's Blog
NBA 2K11's Simulation Gamestyle Is Great, But I Hate How It Cheats the User 
Posted on October 10, 2010 at 07:19 AM.
I have been a member on OS for 8 years now. I first joined the site back in 2002 when it was still in its infancy. I found the website through a Google search while looking for a website dedicated to sports gaming - my favorite genre of video games at the time. NBA 2K3 was on the verge of release, and thus the game that would begin the 2K Brand's dominance in the basketball video game market (and sports video gaming for that matter).
Over the years, I've noticed how most of the NBA 2K games are met with glorious impressions initially, then the criticism starts to roll in days later. It happens like clockwork every single year when a new NBA 2K is released - and NBA 2K11 is no exception.
There is a lot to love about 2K11 on paper: the updated rosters, the updated Association and My Player modes, the gameplay enhancements, and the granddaddy of all features, the return of Michael Jordan to the virtual hardwood. I would be lying if I said this wasn't my most anticipated video game release of 2010. It seem like October took forever to get here this year!!
Spending my middle and high school years during the 1990's, I was 14 (a month shy of 15) year's old when Jordan took his "final shot" in the 1998 NBA Finals. Like the rest of America, I thought that Jordan pushed off on that play (LOL), but what a climatic way to end a season and a career right (or so we thought LOL)?
For those of you that have played NBA games as long as I have, you know that Jordan hasn't appeared in many of them (due to his separate licensing rights outside of the NBA Player's Association). In his 14 year NBA career, I think Jordan has only been featured in officially licensed NBA games maybe like 4 years out of his 15 full seasons in the league. Just like Live 2000 did over 10 years ago, 2K11 announced that Jordan would be featured in their game. That was big news for the basketball gaming industry.
When popping NBA 2K11 into your console for the first time, you're greeted with probably the best opening sequences in video gaming history. Jordan walks out on to the court; Game 1, 1991 NBA Finals. No start menu. No options adjustments. You're thrown right onto the front lines with Jordan as your Platoon Sergeant. Your enemy? The 1991 Los Angeles Lakers and their floor general, Magic Johnson. If you're like me, eventually that nostalgic feeling wears off, and then your attention focuses on the meat and potatoes of any officially licensed sports game - its gameplay, current teams, players, and the modes dedicated to them. 2K11 has its fair share of modes - Association, Playoffs, Single Season, Situation, Practice, Blacktop Mode, My Player, and Quick Game. As you can see, there is plenty to do in this game if you are a fan of the NBA.
Having watching the sport of basketball all of my life, I tend to think that I know a little bit about the game. Grant it, I only played one year of high school basketball (and on the JV level at that), and I will never be mistaken as the best player on the court in any pick up games, but I understand how to play the game. I understand proper defense, working the ball on offense to get the best uncontested shot, and boxing out and getting proper position to grab the rebound. I understand what strengths there are in basketball as well as the weaknesses that a player can have. Having that knowledge is important in analyzing your opponent.
When I play a basketball game such as NBA 2K11, I look to see if those fundamentals of basketball exist in the product. This year NBA 2K11 introduced a simulation gamestyle, designed to replicate the nuisances and patience needed to win an NBA contest. This was a welcomed addition for OS vets and NBA 2K vets alike. Initial criticism of this gamestyle talked about the CPU's ability to steal and deflect passes at a high rate, and I was among one of those who shared in those complaints. A lot of OS posters happy with the game faulted the user's ability, or should I say, inability to play "smart basketball" as the reasons for their frustration. Upon further review, I started to agree. But that's where my agreement stopped.
Once I took a step back and realized I was not playing NBA 2K10 anymore, I started to exhibit more patience on offense. Low and behold, I was generating less turnovers on offense, and starting to get more open looks at the basket. I was finally settling and becoming extremely happy with the game's simulation gamestyle...or so I thought...
Like an NFL referee making a bad call, I needed further review to analyze what was transpiring on the court. The things I started noticing really bothered me; it bothered me to the point that I let out my frustrations about the game yet again. Rather than storm the forums ranting in every open thread and risk a ban for trolling, I elected to write this blog instead.
We all would agree that the key to maintaining an effective offense is minimizing mistakes and taking care of the ball. This holds true in every sport (except baseball since their offense is played out differently). So in basketball, it is important to pass the ball to a teammate only if he has an open opportunity to receive the ball without any interference from an opposing player. THIS JUST IN!!! The turnovers that you generate in 2K11 are not your fault entirely. With the function of instant replay, I was able to go back and review the passes that I threw that led to turnovers. I would say 75% of the turnovers I had were completely my fault - passing the ball in situations that were not ideal; again an old habit from playing 2K10. But that other 25%? I will explain below.
2K lauded over the fact that they redid the passing system this year. Why it's easy to see these improvements when playing the game for the first time, you soon that to see the faults of the passing system as well. To make the game "appear" more challenging to the user, what was done was the make the user perform a pass that was errant and not ideal for the situation. When the situation calls for a bounce pass, your player performs a chest pass instead. When the situation calls for a little more zip on the pass, your player will throw a halfhearted lazy pass instead. These situations lead to easy turnover opportunities for the CPU defense. So while the sim fan thinks that defensive awareness has been ramped up, it really hasn't (well it has, but not as much as it seems), it's just the game trying to overcompensate for its lack of defensive awareness for different situations.
Wonder why you aren't getting a lot of fast break opportunities? Well, when the ball needs to be passed out quickly after a defensive rebound to initiate the fast break, your player lazily hands the ball off to your point guard who must adjust to the bad pass, thus negating the fast break opportunity because the defense has time to recover. So what looked like awesome defensive AI from the computer, was actually the game reducing your offensive AI giving the CPU defense an advantage. Also, your teammate AI on fast breaks is atrocious at best (EDIT: I'm only seeing this in sim mode, I think the fast breaks are fine on default). While the CPU defense sprints down the court to get into position, your teammates jog down court like they are pacing themselves in a marathon; a situation once again allowing the defensive to recover and negating an opportunity for you.
Another sore spot in the game is rebounding. Think your man is in perfect position to grab that board? WRONG!! Count on an opposing player to come in and "Superman that ho!", snatching the ball out of your outstretched hands. This gives the CPU second chance points on your defensive end, and less second chance points for you on your offensive end. And what leads to these peculiar situations? It's simple - there is no box out logic built into the game. Sure, you're able to box out manually, but 9 times out of 10, those shots go in. (I wonder why? Hmmm...) And I wouldn't say that this fault is exclusively tied to simulation mode. The bad rebounding logic is present all across the game. That is something I definitely hope can be patched.
Tell me if this has ever happened to you: You have Jarret Jack (or any point guard not named Derek Fisher) on the wing and you see that Glen "Big Baby" Davis is guarding you because of a defensive switch. No problem right? You just use Jack's speed to get around Davis, right? NOT SO FAST SWEETHEART! (In my Lee Corso voice) Count of Big Baby locking you down as if he were Shane Battier and you were, well you. Again, this is simulation mode at work overcompensating and not rewarding the user in recognizing a mismatch and trying to take advantage all to make the game "appear" to be more challenging. Sure, you can try to "isomotion" your way out of the situation, but even when you finally get daylight, count on Mr. Davis "magically" being able to recover to bump you and impede your progress forcing you to pick up your dribble, or worse, lose control of the ball. And if by some slight chance you do get by even with the odds so heavily stacked against you, be sure to expect the game to force you into some unnecessary, overcomplicated layup animation to make the layup harder than it needed to be to force a "bad" shot attempt. Better yet, you can pass the ball off to a teammate. Oh wait, I forgot about my previous paragraph. Nevermind. (And if you expect your AI teammate to adjust and be smart enough to come to the ball to make the pass easier for you to complete, keep dreaming.)
There's a myriad of other issues I can touch on that I see are prevalent when the game is set to simulation mode, but I'm tired of writing, so I'll just quickly highlight a few down below:
- If you're lucky, you'll hit 30% of your WIDE OPEN 3 pointers, even if you have a team filled with the best 3 point shooters in the NBA (trust me, I created a team of the best 3 point shooters in the game at each position to test out. Sadly, I was right)
- Once again, contesting jump shots doesn't seem to have any effect on the CPU's ability to make or miss shots (unless you block it of course). I'm sure you all have played against KG right? No amount of hands in his face, even with an excellent post defender like Pau Gasol, is going to have any effect on his ability to hit the fadeaway. All you can do is hope you can miraculously block it or it's the 10th time (as Clark Kellog puts it) and he just happens to miss the shot. See my previous blog that I wrote this time last year for more thoughts on that.
- What happened to the awesome human defensive awareness from the demo? It seems eerily absent on simulation.
- Players struggle to make even the most routine layups; the game once again overcompensating by making things more difficult than it needs to be and making the game "appear" to be more challenging
- There's little to no off ball movement from your AI teammates. You basically have to call a play, or navigate through a complicating control scheme to get a teammate to make a cut - the game compensating by eliminating an option to lead pass your way to victory as was prevalent in 2K10. While it may seem like a welcomed addition to some players, that's not sim on any level of basketball, let alone the NBA. Teammates should have the basic knowledge to continuously work to get open without you telling them to.
- Able to get any loose balls lately?
Instead of doing its due diligence and making the CPU smarter and more adept to playing good basketball, the game simply gives the CPU artificial advantages while taking away abilities for the user making it more challenging to win. This forces you to believe that what you have is an extremely intelligent CPU forcing you to beat it legitimately and not through exploits, but really it's counting on you to be too blind to see that you're actually being cheated by the AI. While some users may welcome that, that's not how a basketball simulation should play out. Don't get me wrong, the game can still be enjoyable....on the default setting. I actually enjoy the game very much on Superstar/Default. But if you're looking for a "simulation" experience, it's default or custom sliders. Simulation mode is a fraud.
Comments
# 31 Mos1ted @ Oct 11
@ Stickz, I peeped your vids. I noticed we have the similar styles in the way we play the game. One thing I wanted to reiterate (and I went back and adjusted the title of this blog) is that most of my grievances with the sim style is at the Superstar and Hall of Fame difficulty settings. When playing on Pro/Sim or All-Star/Sim, I think the game is fair enough to where the computer doesn't have any huge advantages over you. But on the highest two settings, instead of making the AI smarter at those levels, you get the results that I talk about in my blog.

I'm playing a Pro/Sim game right now as the Lakers versus the Celtics. 12 minute quarters, 1:57 left in the 2nd quarter. I'm up 51 to 37. I'm shooting 52% from the field versus 31% for the Celtics. I currently have 11 assists, 7 turnovers, 27 rebounds, 4 blocks, and 32 points in the paint. The only statistical advantage the Celtics have over me right now is steals (5), bench points (14), turnovers (1), and fast break points (2).

It's not like I'm not skilled at the game and that's why I'm complaining. My complaints are coming from what I perceive as AI coverups. They couldn't make the AI smarter than what it is on the Pro level, so instead they manipulate the game engine to make the game harder for the user.

It doesn't take long to figure this game out. What happens is I think most users felt like they "mastered" a certain difficulty setting, so they bump up to the next. Why they are expecting a tougher opponent in terms of the CPU's basketball IQ, what they are really getting is an artificial advantage from the CPU. So why the game is now more challenging, it's not necessarily more legit.
 
# 32 Mos1ted @ Oct 11
Meant to say: "So while the game is now more challenging, it's not necessarily more legit in terms of the computer just playing a better game of basketball.
 
# 33 Mos1ted @ Oct 11
That was a very enjoyable game I just had on Pro/Sim. I thought the game played out just like it would in a real game. Kobe was player of the game with 35-6-6. I won the game 99-85 on 12 minute quarters.

Celtics (CPU) Lakers (Me)
Score 85 99
FG % 31 48
3PT 3/21 3/15
FT 18/24 16/24
Assists 19 25
Turnovers 4 17
Fouls 16 13
Rebounds 43 58
Steals 14 3
Blocks 4 10
PitP 38 60
Bench PTs 24 8
2nd Ch pts 6 4
Fast Break 2 4

*I also wanted to note that I played the game on default rosters. I think the 2K Living Rosters nerfed the game making it too easy, especially on higher levels. I think this was done in the past 24 hours (before I wrote my blog). Despite my previous complaints, I'm not liking how the game plays with the latest living rosters even if it does make playing on the higher difficulty settings more manageable. When I start my association, I'm going to use the default rosters.
 
# 34 Enzo599 @ Oct 11
Agree with mos1ted!!! Rite on the money!!
 
# 35 Stickz24 @ Oct 11
Got you Most .. I did another vid that I haven't posted yet .. but I think superstar is very similar to the all-star level .... but that's my opinion. Where I do agree with you though .. is that on hall of fame the game becomes damn near impossible. But the thing is man - that's like playing on GOD mode in HALO or something. At that level .. you're going to feel cheated unless you yourself are playing w all hall of famers. No if you're telling me - you're blowing cpu out in superstar mode .. then maybe you take worse teams. But I'm almost positive that's not the case. Just asking .. but does it then make sense to enjoy the game on superstar mode .. and leave hof be (pride and all). Use HOF when you play humans .. but dont waste your time against cpu at that level.
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It's like you're electing to play SPACE JAM .. at that moment. remember space jam? That wasn't sim - see what Mike had to do to win?
But to say the game sim modes is a FRAUD (even on higher difficulties)?
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We can both agree that you have to be an expert to have this be an easy game on superstar sim-- If that's tough and realistic enough - even if you have to go down to lower tiered teams what more do you want? .. I'd say its a fair product personally. That's why you have your online options .. 2 player options.
I guarantee you .. I can put that game on hall of fame .. play a season and force them to play real ball. No questions. I'll make the playoffs easily .. may not win the chip .. but will def be above 500 .. with any strong above 500 team. The strategy will override the cpu man - but the level of concentration that requires on a game to game basis is not fun at all to me. It might be though, to some genius in west bubble****. But to call it a fraud though man - with all the effort they put into this .. that's a bit harsh man. When you remember that its actual humans that sit down, design and put all this stuff together (could be people you know) .. you step back and say .. damn - you're right fam. That was a good look. Just my perspective tho.
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But its America man - land of the free - just sharing my space w you. Feel however you want and enjoy the hell out of it.
 
# 36 Stickz24 @ Oct 11
I'm tempted to do some hof games .. but posting these vids to youtube took way more time than I anticipated. I honestly think the problem most people have is with their camera views tho. I could never play the way I do on 2k or broadcast .. I'd win games online .. but not against cpu.
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Hopefully those speeches I wrote up there are somewhat helpful .. or maybe the vid. And if all is naught .. and you're on the xbox .. link me up - I'll give you an intelligent AI ..lol. kill em on allstar or superstar and enjoy your game man.
1 brother.
 
# 37 Stickz24 @ Oct 11
*** We can both agree that you have to be an expert to have this be "easy" game on all-star or superstar sim modes***
 
# 38 sticks323 @ Oct 12
You r soo RIGHT...everything you said is true. Animations still takeover the game. The CPU has no problem shooting with a hand in their face. Players do not play like they are suppose to. I have D.Rose as my PG and he always wants to do some fancy up n under layup animation. Passing is impossible especially on a fastbreak unless you throw an Oop. They throw bounce passes at the wrong time. There is no defense in this game. People that say they don't experience these issues are lying and trying to overlook these problems. The CPU starts to miss late in the game is programmed to make you feel better. If you don't run any plays your AI just stands still looking at you. Even when you run a play they don't even set screens, you just have 1 person running around the other players. The CPU executes PERFECT plays each time. The CPU is almost certain to hit the shot with a hand in their face. Remember when 2k said you would not be able to throw a pass from side to the other to stop the fastbreak glitch. Well they forgot to tell the CPU that, because I have seen the CPU grab a rebound in the paint n Throw a perfect pass to the other basket for a easy dunk. Thats IMPOSSIBLE... 2k hides all their problems by adding Michael Jordan and some nice dunk animations. Have you noticed that players Float n Rise in the air as they dunk. Have you ever seen Kyle Korver dunk the ball??? (NOOOO) If you grab an Offensive rebound and go back up for a layup you get stuck in an animation and the CPU blocks the shot, but on the other end the CPU automatically dunks the ball. 2k needs to fix these problems and stop trying to throw presentation and animations out there to cover up these problems. GREAT POST
 
# 39 Stickz24 @ Oct 12
Again .. I'll post a vid I did of a game on superstar ... show you that it's tough .. yeah - but def not impossible or xtra cheesy. HOF maybe ... but even then man - you just have to go to war with CPU. Figure this man - the game has been out for approx 1 week or so .. If you were able to beat tough teams on HOF - you've essentially beaten the game. 1 week? Are you THAT nice .. if you are .. please look me up on the xbox. I'll give you some tough sim games.
-----
I'll give y'all one thing tho -- I just played online .. whoooo - that **** el terrible.
Wooow - they dropped the ball on that one -- feels like a completely different game. Offline though - I can dig in. On anything except hof .. and then -- even that.
 
# 40 Stickz24 @ Oct 12
Most .. thanks for the inspiration .. check out a thread I posted called
NBA 2K11 SIM CHALLENGE: Are you really sim? Show us!! U either learning or teaching.
I'll skate from you blog now. The other vids I mentioned are in there .. one's on superstar simulation. Friend me for anything more .. If not, good chats kid .. later.
 
# 41 shawnpatrick78 @ Oct 12
The game is meant to be played on default. I have not yet had a problem with the game. Why try to fix something that isn't broken.
 
# 42 stillfeelme @ Oct 13
I have to agree with this blog. I have been playing all-star simulation against the CPU mostly taking L's mostly but winning a few. The game is definitely a challenge but you can clearly see when the CPU has an advantage.
3pt shooting is attrocious man it seems to not matter whether you are the Suns, Magic, Sixers, open shots or not and you already did the shot stick test vs. real fg%
Speed does not really matter, by that I mean you can rarely if all blow by a slower defender with a straight move to the basket. You basically have to get by a defender by screen or isomotion breakdown and hope your guard doesn't blow the layup with a wierd contact animation. To me that is not real basketball. I shouldn't have to string together 3 crossovers moves with Derrick Rose to blow by a center like Samuel Dalembert lol. Watch any Derrick Rose hightlight on youtube he is blazing fast and doesn't need cross overs to blow by guards let alone centers. It is a one two dribble then boom he is gone.

Passing, man I hate seeing an outlet pass get deflected where I know damn well no one would throw the pass so low that it will get deflected in the first place. Just wierd trajectories of passes or slow passes that an average or above average NBA player would not make. I say all of this to say I never had this much fun playing a game in which I was losing more than winning before. Now I heard they possibly changed up a few things and made it less challenging and I haven't played a game since Saturday but I saw a thread today about it.
 
# 43 Stickz24 @ Oct 13
@ Stillfeelme - check out those vids I mentioned in the posts up there. I ran some games on all-star sim w none of those issues. It might help you .. your call tho.
 
# 44 Mos1ted @ Oct 13
Despite all the chatter, this is still a fun game. I still have fun when playing on the simulation setting. But the more I play, the more I feel that the simulation mode alters the way the game is play a little too much just for the sake of realistic stats. I'm loving the fact that I can play a 48 minute game, and be right on the money with every stat compared to the real NBA without trying to force it. At the same time, I'm seeing that the games don't play out as dynamically as they should as a result. I wish there was another alternative to have the game play more dynamically, but still get right-on-the-money stats. Looks like I'm going to have to lift my self-imposed embargo, and hit the sliders.
 
# 45 columbia wu @ Oct 13
great review, I agree 100%....I have a question do they call offensive charges in this game, is it possible to draw a charge in this game.....63 games and not one charging foul
 

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