And the hits just keep on coming......

The Spin Cycle

First off for anyone who may not be sure what I am referencing when I say "The Spin Cycle", here is quick video.



This move has become the bane of my 2k experience, I hate this move with the white hot passion of a thousand suns.

However……..

I feel fairly safe in saying that there is a way to nearly (if not totally) eliminate this move from the game. It is tied directly to the Size Up tendency.

When testing the effect of hesitation, I notice a lack of crazy dribble moves near the end of the shot clock.(videos in my blog) Not that they don’t try to get an open look, they do. However, the ball handler does not go all AND1 style(or very rarely and no the Spin Cycle).

When I shifted to testing Size Up, one thing stuck out almost instantly, the Spin Cycle was back.

At this time my tendencies for Isiah were;

Everything at 0

Except:
NO TTS=100

Size Up =100

Drive Right=100

I tested each Dribble Penetration move one by one, but I’ll go with the most extreme example to best highlight it. Spin=100

Ratings:
BH=99
OFFHAND=25
BALL SEC=25

Coach slider for help D at 30, d pressure at 50, ATB at 1

Within the first minute of play I saw the spin cycle with these settings.

I tried zero Spin, still got the cycle. Tried other “moves” still the cycle.

I set Size Up to 1(0,1,0), you spin me right round baby, right round, like a record baby right round, round, round.

At this point I decided to bring Straight Dribble into the mix.

SD=100
SU=1

I only watched about 4 mintues I took away all of Isiah’s attack tendencies so the shot clock ran down under six seconds , 60% of the time. I did not see the cycle.

SD=99
SU=1

Small sample but still no cycle.

SD=75, SU=25, nope
SD=50, SU=50, nope
SD=49, SU=51….

And were back.

So, having a Size Up Tendency higher than that of Simple Drive causes the spin cycle, for certain. The other settings may not wholly eliminate it, as I said the sample size was not large, but if you know the cycle like I do, if you give it an inch and it will take a mile (it appears fast and frequently).

Having a high Spin dribble penetration tendency only amplfies the problem, because it ain’t called the Spin cycle for nothing. But having at zero does not eliminate it in any way unless Size Up is at 0.

Conclusions:

Set Up Dribble/Dribble Penetration interaction:

All players are hard-coded with all the dribble moves and access is dependent on 1) Ball Handling Rating and 2) Signature Dribble animations assigned. The A.I. also does a decent job of using the proper move in the proper context.

Dribble Penetration tendencies or “moves” act as “GO TO” moves. The higher the setting the more likely a player is to use the dribble animations he has available. This is on top on the hardcoded moves, like a frequency amplfier.

This can cause issues where the A.I. opts for the highest or “GO TO” move in lieu of another move that may have served the ball handler better contextually. Since some moves occur fairly often(crossover) adding a “GO TO” bonus can cause the move to be used too often.

Recommendations(as always subject to change):

Coach Sliders: Set Help defense to 30

Ratings:

Ball Handling: I am still leaving these set as is until I test further with the new help defense.

Off Hand Dribble: This I have no idea, I saw no immediately noticeable difference between 25 and 99 any difference was slight this requires more testing, but 25 did not cause a ton of issues in my Thomas test.

Ball Sec: 25-35, this unlocks a whole new set of animations that had only seen once or not at all.

On Ball D: With the help D set to 30 in coach profile this can go back to the old 99-25 scale IMO.

Set-Up Dribble:

Straight Dribble: MUST be set higher than Size Up to avoid spin cycle hell. I am going with 100 right now as it helps players attack when they get a step without hesitating.

Size Up: I am setting to zero and calling it a day for that tendency. Whatever cool animations might be lost to me aren’t worth having a chance at the cycle coming back. Use this tendency at your own risk.

Hesitation: I’m still unsure if this had an effect or not. Either way it doesn’t seem to hurt anything that I know of. 0-100 dealers choice.

Drive Right: Had this set at 100 for all my recent test with Thomas, he seemed to have little to no issue driving and scoring with his left hand. More testing needed but I would still move this to 75 for all righties and 25 for all lefties(guards, 100 or 0 for bigs).

Dribble Penetration: These are amplifiers of the already hardcoded moves, however, some moves more often, turning those up makes them happen too often and at the wrong times. I am leaving all these at zero for the time being. The only ones I recommend using at all are the very rare ones, Half Spin and Inside Out. Both of those moves are pretty subtle in the game and hard to tell if when one has occurred, still I have seen both with the tendency at zero.

You sir, should have a donate button next to your name.

Please post that in the thread because it constitutes as a note worthy find.

Also, do you sleep? Lol

I was literally about to go to bed when I read I your post about help d @ 30. So I wanted to check it out really quick, and then...........

"I wonder what would happen if you set simple drive to 0 and give all other penetration moves 0 except one and give that one a 100. How often would we see that particular move? "

To be able to test how each Dribble Penetration slider effects the ballhandler decision making(what move to use) . You have to know the frequency(or at least average frequency) of the move you are testing with the slider at zero.

But, since the ability to do each move is somewhat tied to BH rating(not sure about how closely as I saw the Spin cycle in a test where Thomas had; BH=25, OHD=25, Ball SEC=25, could just be dribble packages) and all the moves are hardcoded to the players to happen contextually it would be a pretty big undertaking. You would have pick a player then count the number of crossovers he performs in a game. You need to square him off against different levels of defenders(a 80 OBD player may cause more changes in direction vs. a 70 OBD). The sample size to get anything you could really consider an average would be what? 5 games? For each move, against each level of possible defender. That is a lot of work and there is no guarantee that you even find anything conclusive thanks to the hardcoded moves. If having crossover at 0 meant a player would never do that move then it would be far more testable. As is there are other issues I'd like to address.

Are there any updates on the dribble and on-ball defense edits? I have been following the thread, I see that you are factoring quickness now.

The dribble penetration tendecies are either extremely sensitive, or you have to max them out to remotely see the move done. Spin move is the biggest one. Even a 1, you will see this move used alot. I would not put anyone above one based on my test.