NBA 2K16 News Post

Team Defense Must Improve in NBA 2K17

01:25 PM - September 5, 2016 by ChaseB

NBA 2K17 will soon be upon us (as Mike Wang’s recent gameplay blog shows), but there’s one topic I have to talk about before release season officially arrives: team defense.

This past year I’ve talked a lot about multi-man interactions and defensive situations, but one thing I haven’t really talked about is how an entire defense works together. Team defense can be very hit or miss in NBA 2K16. At points the rotations are great, but other times team defense breaks down every step of the way.

So after the jump, I’ll dive in with some GIFs that try to detail the good, the bad and the ugly of NBA 2K16’s team defense.

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# 1 Jhawkfootball06 @ 09/05/16 01:37 PM

# 2 Vast @ 09/05/16 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jhawkfootball06

It looks like #27 shouldve been on Love and Draymond on Lebron but there was a miscommunication. Happens in the NBA all the time during transition.

# 3 extremeskins04 @ 09/05/16 01:54 PM

This is the one gameplay aspect that I'm worried about and it's the team defense and defensive mechanics which were extremely broken last year.

If I set up my defense so I want them to play tight coverage on shooters and for them to NOT help defense and NOT leave their man, and when a pick happens and my teammates start leaving their man wide open for a 3 because they felt the need to come help me on a pick play, then it's a problem.

And this happened way too much last year to the point of where it got frustrating. There were a ton of videos on it, even Sam Pham discussed it alot.

I'm not saying that a bad defender with poor basketball IQ won't make mistakes, but this was happening on players like Kawhi and it shouldn't.

Hopefully it's fixed this year.

# 4 alabamarob @ 09/05/16 01:58 PM

Great Post. I think the key is in the Individual defensive settings options. If 17 gives us a way to control what players we help off of, then i will be satisfied. We shouldn't have to faceguard/deny a guy to not help off of him. If we control who we help off of, then we control our own rotations. Thus, the help defense logic would be user and not AI dependent.

Settings like "Dont help" or "1 foot in the paint" would take defense to a whole new level. When someone runs an Iso with Harden and Capella is standing beyond the 3 point line wouldnt it be nice to have the big guarding Capella keep "1 foot in the paint." Or wouldnt it be nice to play moderate off ball pressure on Klay but "dont help" on the Curry/Green PNR.

Seems easier to make the rotations user controlled as opposed to making the cpu help defenders react a certain way.

# 5 LorenzoDC @ 09/05/16 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jhawkfootball06

That video was played on Pro Default difficulty, by the way.

# 6 ch46647 @ 09/05/16 02:05 PM

Hoping for a blog from OG and Czar this week!

# 7 YungGun @ 09/05/16 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vast


	It looks like #27 shouldve been on Love and Draymond on Lebron but there was a miscommunication. Happens in the NBA all the time during transition.

True that it happens a lot during transition, but just look at the way Draymond just slides out of the way so the CPU can get an open cut to the basket. This was a major problem in 2K16 and as we see might be a problem in this years game as well. This is inexcusable. Plus stuff like this only happens against the User's team.

# 8 Hustle Westbrook @ 09/05/16 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LorenzoDC


	That video was played on Pro Default difficulty, by the way.

I've seen gameplay on Hall of Fame where this was happening.

# 9 ChaseB @ 09/05/16 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by extremeskins04


	This is the one gameplay aspect that I'm worried about and it's the team defense and defensive mechanics which were extremely broken last year. If I set up my defense so I want them to play tight coverage on shooters and for them to NOT help defense and NOT leave their man, and when a pick happens and my teammates start leaving their man wide open for a 3 because they felt the need to come help me on a pick play, then it's a problem. And this happened way too much last year to the point of where it got frustrating. There were a ton of videos on it, even Sam Pham discussed it alot. I'm not saying that a bad defender with poor basketball IQ won't make mistakes, but this was happening on players like Kawhi and it shouldn't. Hopefully it's fixed this year.

Yeah, again I think on some level the game just goes into certain "set" rotations when your on-ball defender is beat. So you can set your defense a certain way etc. but if you don't follow your own concepts of "icing" the pick and roll or whatever, then your other players still overreact to any penetration. I would tend to see the overreaction come from the weak side rather than the strong side when your defensive settings are setup, but yeah, still agree on the whole.

In addition, the Kawhi point is also fair to some degree. You feel a big difference when using Kawhi on the ball, but AI Kawhi away from the ball still gets beat backdoor on a cut you instigate just like everyone else when "limit perimeter shots" is the emphasis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alabamarob


	Great Post. I think the key is in the Individual defensive settings options. If 17 gives us a way to control what players we help off of, then i will be satisfied. We shouldn't have to faceguard/deny a guy to not help off of him. If we control who we help off of, then we control our own rotations. Thus, the help defense logic would be user and not AI dependent. Settings like "Dont help" or "1 foot in the paint" would take defense to a whole new level. When someone runs an Iso with Harden and Capella is standing beyond the 3 point line wouldnt it be nice to have the big guarding Capella keep "1 foot in the paint." Or wouldnt it be nice to play moderate off ball pressure on Klay but "dont help" on the Curry/Green PNR. Seems easier to make the rotations user controlled as opposed to making the cpu help defenders react a certain way.

I should also mention I come from a place where I don't play off-ball defense. I'm strictly an on-ball defender because I just think it's the most "sim" thing to do, especially in online games. You can mitigate some of these issues if you do play off ball or use the big man some of the time.

Yeah that would be really cool. Again, I think there's actually a decent base already in the game, you just can't access all the options until the game starts, which isn't ideal because the settings don't carryover game to game. Those options being available in the menus before games would be great. But when it comes to random online games, the settings you're talking about become far more important as there isn't a menu where you can set things once and forget them the same way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by YungGun


	True that it happens a lot during transition, but just look at the way Draymond just slides out of the way so the CPU can get an open cut to the basket. This was a major problem in 2K16 and as we see might be a problem in this years game as well. This is inexcusable. Plus stuff like this only happens against the User's team.

Yeah this is the semi-transition issue to some extent as well. All five players get back, but Mozgov just trots down the floor and is able to cut right into the lane. Even then I don't mind the play because the pass is super soft, Draymond should just be able to get his hands on it but he doesn't move his body in a way where he can reach it. That being said, I do think this happens to the AI as well as I definitely get face cuts off on the AI when I have no right to.

# 10 jfsolo @ 09/05/16 03:25 PM

This article is 100% on point. The drum I've been beating for that last few years now is that a lot animations representing a moments indecision have to be added so that failure can play out in a more subtle fashion. Too many mistakes in sports games mirror what you would see with 8 year-olds, i.e. players wildly out of position, and not slight missteps that you would see with pros.

# 11 Kushmir @ 09/05/16 03:46 PM

Really good stuff here, Chase.

Make the offense earn their points....simple.

# 12 keshunleon @ 09/05/16 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by extremeskins04


	This is the one gameplay aspect that I'm worried about and it's the team defense and defensive mechanics which were extremely broken last year. If I set up my defense so I want them to play tight coverage on shooters and for them to NOT help defense and NOT leave their man, and when a pick happens and my teammates start leaving their man wide open for a 3 because they felt the need to come help me on a pick play, then it's a problem. And this happened way too much last year to the point of where it got frustrating. There were a ton of videos on it, even Sam Pham discussed it alot. I'm not saying that a bad defender with poor basketball IQ won't make mistakes, but this was happening on players like Kawhi and it shouldn't. Hopefully it's fixed this year.

Team defense, AI defense, simple defensive plays. I lost 90% of my games because of switching, leaving their man, canned double teams and or players just standing around.

Defenders seem to be watching more than they're playing. This needs to be a fixed especially for the good defensive teams.

# 13 ChaseB @ 09/05/16 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfsolo


	This article is 100% on point. The drum I've been beating for that last few years now is that a lot animations representing a moments indecision have to be added so that failure can play out in a more subtle fashion. Too many mistakes in sports games mirror what you would see with 8 year-olds, i.e. players wildly out of position, and not slight missteps that you would see with pros.

Thanks for the kind words jfsolo. I think an inability for players to slightly turn their hips after going one way or an ability to make subtle arm movements when out of place would help for sure. I think that first GIF that was posted in this thread (featuring Dray and Mozzy) sort of highlights that element.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kushmir


	Really good stuff here, Chase. Make the offense earn their points....simple.

Thanks Kush, hope you bought your Ben Simmons jersey (he's top 10 in jersey sales already, woooooo).

Quote:

Originally Posted by keshunleon


	Team defense, AI defense, simple defensive plays. I lost 90% of my games because of switching, leaving their man, canned double teams and or players just standing around. Defenders seem to be watching more than they're playing. This needs to be a fixed especially for the good defensive teams.

Yeah I think a differentiation between teams on defense would be a really nice milestone. You see and feel differences in individual players (shot blockers vs. non shot blockers and all that), but suffocating defense doesn't feel as commonplace. However, I do think some teams rotate better and all that, and if you have really good on-ball defenders the other stuff takes care of itself much more. It's when the initial breakdowns occur that things go HAM no matter what team you use on some level.

# 14 Crunky @ 09/05/16 04:55 PM

This can all be fixed if 2k added a Help Defense Attention" meter for every player in the Coaching section of the pause menu. So, like, if we're playing against Cleveland, we can set LeBron's Help Defense Attention to 100, so that everyone will be focused on bringing help defense when he drives, but we can set jr smith to like 50, so when he drives, help defense will come, but not as strong as when LeBron drives.

That's how it works in real life. As of now, our only option is to set help defense strength to the same value for everybody, so that the help on a jr smith drive will look the same as on a James drive.

Hell, to even add to that, if you set someone to 100, the defense should shade, tilt the court, whatever you wanna call it, toward that player when he gets the ball in position to make a play (i.e., at or inside the three-point line).

# 15 extremeskins04 @ 09/05/16 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crunky


	This can all be fixed if 2k added a Help Defense Attention" meter for every player in the Coaching section of the pause menu. So, like, if we're playing against Cleveland, we can set LeBron's Help Defense Attention to 100, so that everyone will be focused on bringing help defense when he drives, but we can set jr smith to like 50, so when he drives, help defense will come, but not as strong as when LeBron drives. That's how it works in real life. As of now, our only option is to set help defense strength to the same value for everybody, so that the help on a jr smith drive will look the same as on a James drive. Hell, to even add to that, if you set someone to 100, the defense should shade, tilt the court, whatever you wanna call it, toward that player when he gets the ball in position to make a play (i.e., at or inside the three-point line).

110% agree. This would definitely work I think.

# 16 ChaseB @ 09/05/16 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crunky


	This can all be fixed if 2k added a Help Defense Attention" meter for every player in the Coaching section of the pause menu. So, like, if we're playing against Cleveland, we can set LeBron's Help Defense Attention to 100, so that everyone will be focused on bringing help defense when he drives, but we can set jr smith to like 50, so when he drives, help defense will come, but not as strong as when LeBron drives. That's how it works in real life. As of now, our only option is to set help defense strength to the same value for everybody, so that the help on a jr smith drive will look the same as on a James drive. Hell, to even add to that, if you set someone to 100, the defense should shade, tilt the court, whatever you wanna call it, toward that player when he gets the ball in position to make a play (i.e., at or inside the three-point line).

Yeah you're talking about gravity so to speak. It's probably not quite as cut and dry as you don't want to leave players like Kyrie or Korver open on the drive either way, but I get the concept.

# 17 BQ32 @ 09/05/16 05:47 PM

Defense is just a complete mess in 2k16 and the help defense is only 1 issue. The AI on on ball defense is godlike at times allowing a slow big to stay in front of super quick guards and wings (sucking the fun out of dribble drives), however if you want to play offball d you can easily be exploited because of the clunky mechanics in changing direction (on defense) and getting sucked into animations when you just want to sprint over and cover the open man. Its very easy for the offense to slide behind a user controlled player while making a deflection on reaction is nearly impossible. this leads to constant short passes in the paint for dunks. Add in the constant jump hopping to pump fake exploit used at the NBA and higher levels and the game just looks like a mess. lets not even get into the horrid transition d which is only not exploited more severly because of nerfs to offensive running speed, players not filling lanes correctly, forced missed passes, and that stupid momentum carry where a shooter needs to catch and take a minimum of two steps and a turn to get a shot off. It seems you are screwed either way and have to defend based on what you opposing player does not know how to exploit. This is a series driven by casuals and their awe of good looking graphics and animations but have somehow convinced them all that it is the truest sim of all sport games. To be honest so much needs to be overhauled to play nba like basketball i cant get my hopes up.

# 18 GregS1981 @ 09/05/16 07:59 PM

The help defense was really overaggressive in 2K16, to the point where if u run a simple P'n'R u can get a wide open 3 on most possessions. It sounds like there are options in 2K17 to set where the help comes from and who not to leave. This sounds great in theory. The settings in 2K16 weren't nearly specific enough. Also the hedge defense is way too aggressive in 2K16, the only truly effective way to defend the P'n'R in 2K16 is to set it to no hedge. No hedge in 2K16 was more of a soft hedge and it's by far the most efficient option. The P'n'R seemed to cause the most issues as far as breaking the defense in 2K16, hopefully this is addressed in 2K17. From tge 2K17 streams I've watched it's hard to tell much because the people playing the game are very casual players and they don't have enough understanding of the game to cause the cpu defense problems. Hopefully Czar and Scott O'Gallagher release developer blogs this week and some of this is addressed.

# 19 ChaseB @ 09/05/16 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GregS1981


	The help defense was really overaggressive in 2K16, to the point where if u run a simple P'n'R u can get a wide open 3 on most possessions. It sounds like there are options in 2K17 to set where the help comes from and who not to leave. This sounds great in theory. The settings in 2K16 weren't nearly specific enough. Also the hedge defense is way too aggressive in 2K16, the only truly effective way to defend the P'n'R in 2K16 is to set it to no hedge. No hedge in 2K16 was more of a soft hedge and it's by far the most efficient option. The P'n'R seemed to cause the most issues as far as breaking the defense in 2K16, hopefully this is addressed in 2K17. From tge 2K17 streams I've watched it's hard to tell much because the people playing the game are very casual players and they don't have enough understanding of the game to cause the cpu defense problems. Hopefully Czar and Scott O'Gallagher release developer blogs this week and some of this is addressed.

Yeah I settled on no hedge and icing the rolls most of the time. I think I did a universal "go over" screens as well as it seemed if you went under with the on-ball defender it would lead to some issues as well.

Overall though, yeah if you didn't set individual assignments it would lead to some chaos the moment you didn't nail every single encounter on-ball during pick and roll actions.

# 20 choteron2 @ 09/05/16 09:41 PM

Great post. Other thing that 2k need to improve a lot is the lighting of the courts.
Look how dark is the crowd in the real staples center in comparision with the 2k staples center. And is not the only arena, almost all the arenas have poor lighting and that at least for me break the inmersion.

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