NHL 12 News Post

NHL 12 - Canadiens vs. Penguins (Full Game)

01:18 PM - September 7, 2011 by ChaseB

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# 1 Money99 @ 09/07/11 01:46 PM

Thanks Chase!
The AI seems solid.

Makes it even more disappointing about the broken BaGM mode.

# 2 pennywise @ 09/07/11 01:47 PM

What difficulty was this played on? The first two Canadiens goals exposed some pretty brutal defensive AI.

The first one was a two-on-one where instead of taking away the passing lane the AI defender actually skated right over to the player without the puck. This essentially handed the puck carrier a breakaway.

The second goal was similar. Three Penguin defenders covering two Canadien forwards on the far side of the net while they watched the puck carrier walk out to the front of the net and score.

Not exactly encouraging.

# 3 ChaseB @ 09/07/11 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pennywise


	What difficulty was this played on? The first two Canadiens goals exposed some pretty brutal defensive AI. The first one was a two-on-one where instead of taking away the passing lane the AI defender actually skated right over to the player without the puck. This essentially handed the puck carrier a breakaway. The second goal was similar. Three Penguin defenders covering two Canadien forwards on the far side of the net while they watched the puck carrier walk out to the front of the net and score. Not exactly encouraging.

The Cole goal is interesting because the guy who tries to check him falls, which might have thrown off the coverage and given Cole the space coming from behind the net.

That said, the AI is definitely shaky in terms of defending guys with the puck below the circles, and coming off the boards and behind the net down low.

It was standard All-Star.

# 4 tyler289 @ 09/07/11 02:54 PM

Incredibly disappointing that they post-goal video goes immediately to the fans celebrating after the goal is scored. In no broadcast in history has that happened.

ESPECIALLY on the road.

Thanks for the videos, though. The gameplay does look acceptable, and I'm going to assume this is with no sliders.

# 5 ChaseB @ 09/07/11 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rogie Vachon


	OK,I guess I stand corrected on setting for this game video,...Chase says All Star/Normal ? Good to know so I can evaluate. Is the shoddy AI an All Star diff. issue? Is the AI better on Super Star?

It's on hardcore as well, just the standard all-star hardcore. Sorry for the confusion.

# 6 FBeaule04 @ 09/07/11 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaseB


	The Cole goal is interesting because the guy who tries to check him falls, which might have thrown off the coverage and given Cole the space coming from behind the net. That said, the AI is definitely shaky in terms of defending guys with the puck below the circles, and coming off the boards and behind the net down low. It was standard All-Star.

Your video is making me sick to my stomach. I can't count how many time you get the zone just to see the D backing off and sweeping the ice like they are playing curling.

On one missed pass, you get to the puck while Paul Martin, instead of going to the puck is skating straight to the post and then, no break to get the icing. I've seen also a lot of skating in the zone to counter the "pinning on the board" by the AI when press.

There's also few things I saw that we're fine. You tried 2-3 times the "coming back to the slot from behind the net and shoot glove side" and it didn't work.

Only problem with that is the only time you tried it short side, it worked! Worse than that, on the Cole goal, that's where I expect Anticipation AI to get on. Staal fell trying to hit Cole. Usually, Malkin, who was covering Plekanec down low, would have see that and go for Cole to cut the comeback from the other side, leaving Cole to either cut in front of Letang or get the puck back around the board.

Not only, Malkin didn't do that, but even worse, Letang got stuck sweeping at the ice while wainting for the other winger to get down low. Even Staal, when near the goalie is stopping like someone hitting a brick wall and turning back while Cole takes the shot.

Either the dev team as no clue whatsoever how a defensive scheme works in hockey, either they don't have a clue how to program that. I've been dice by people here when I breakdown a video because there was no "gameplay footage" long enough to be sure it was like that.

This video just proved what I was saying this summer. The defensive AI programming is awful and the more we play, the more will find that kind of lapses from the AI. I hope I'm wrong...I'm really hoping I'm wrong.

Thanks for the video Chase. I would really like to see a video when you're locked as a player to see how your AI teammates react to the play.

# 7 pennywise @ 09/07/11 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rogie Vachon


	On a two on one,....the Dman should be taking out the open player,.....and letting the goalie shut down the shooter. That`s how goalies want it,.....we don`t want the puck carrier to even think about passing to the open guy,.....we want the puck carrier to be forced to shoot,.....it`s our job to stop the puck. By playing the middle,the passing lane,......you don`t accomplish very much of anything,...the odds of stopping a pass is very low,the open guy is left open...going for the back door play that is the goalie`s worst nightmare,......and if the pass doesn`t come,the open guy is still there as a threat/decoy,...and that means the goalie has to respect that threat,...so that means hes got the shooter to worry about,and the backdoor guy,...and possibly a guy coming in late. Dmen that play the middle on 2 on 1`s aren`t doing their goalies any favours at all,.......and when told how to play it,if they continue their evil ways,....they are despised by goalies one and all.

No. Just no. What you're describing is a textbook way of *not* playing a two-on-one defensively. Over-committing to either the puck carrier or his partner is going to leave your goalie out to dry one way or the other. The proper play is to prevent the pass as best you can without allowing the puck carrier to waltz in on a breakaway.

Read here: http://www.hockeyshare.com/blog/hock...sected-part-2/

What you're recommending ( and what the AI did ) is a textbook example of the "Weak-Side Coverage Mistake" described in the article. You'll never see any high-level hockey player play a two-on-one that way.

# 8 Money99 @ 09/07/11 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pennywise


	No. Just no. What you're describing is a textbook way of not playing a two-on-one defensively. Over-committing to either the puck carrier or his partner is going to leave your goalie out to dry one way or the other. The proper play is to prevent the pass as best you can without allowing the puck carrier to waltz in on a breakaway. Read here: http://www.hockeyshare.com/blog/hock...sected-part-2/ What you're recommending ( and what the AI did ) is a textbook example of the "Weak-Side Coverage Mistake" described in the article. You'll never see any high-level hockey player play a two-on-one that way.

Yeah, the dman didn't play that 2-on-1 like he should have.
But I'd like to see the replay to see which defenseman it was. Perhaps it was one of Pitt's poorer defenders? I'll have to take a look again.
If it was a lower rated dman, then I can overlook this as it would help show a difference between the elite defenders and borderline AHL players.

# 9 FBeaule04 @ 09/07/11 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pennywise


	No. Just no. What you're describing is a textbook way of not playing a two-on-one defensively. Over-committing to either the puck carrier or his partner is going to leave your goalie out to dry one way or the other. The proper play is to prevent the pass as best you can without allowing the puck carrier to waltz in on a breakaway. Read here: http://www.hockeyshare.com/blog/hock...sected-part-2/ What you're recommending ( and what the AI did ) is a textbook example of the "Weak-Side Coverage Mistake" described in the article. You'll never see any high-level hockey player play a two-on-one that way.

Rogie is right, the goalie will always ask the D to avoid the pass at all cost. I didn't tought it was necessary to explain that in the process, the D will have to put is body in position to cut a pass and make a play on the puck carrier if this one as an hesitation, I thought that was evident to start with.

You'll never see a D-man get to the other guy on a 2 on 1. Like I said, the guy will put himself in between and when it's time to take a decision, will play the pass and let the goalie have a shot.

Problem with that in the EA sports title is the fact that goalie plays 1 on 1 poorly (a quick deke and it's a goal) while making a good pass on a 2 on 1 would usually end in a miss pass and no shot.

# 10 pennywise @ 09/07/11 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBeaule04


	Rogie is right, the goalie will always ask the D to avoid the pass at all cost. I didn't tought it was necessary to explain that in the process, the D will have to put is body in position to cut a pass and make a play on the puck carrier if this one as an hesitation, I thought that was evident to start with. You'll never see a D-man get to the other guy on a 2 on 1. Like I said, the guy will put himself in between and when it's time to take a decision, will play the pass and let the goalie have a shot. Problem with that in the EA sports title is the fact that goalie plays 1 on 1 poorly (a quick deke and it's a goal) while making a good pass on a 2 on 1 would usually end in a miss pass and no shot.

But he's saying the AI played it correctly by leaving the puck carrier to do as he pleases while taking out the potential pass recipient aggressively. That's just plain wrong.

If I'm wrong on what he meant then I apologize, but that's what I get from reading his comment.

# 11 plaidchuck @ 09/07/11 04:05 PM

Yep not buying this until it's dirt cheap used on some online site. I honestly thought the defensive AI could at least not get any worse but EA never ceases to amaze me..

# 12 FBeaule04 @ 09/07/11 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pennywise


	But he's saying the AI played it correctly by leaving the puck carrier to do as he pleases while taking out the potential pass recipient aggressively. That's just plain wrong. If I'm wrong on what he meant then I apologize, but that's what I get from reading his comment.

Ok, I'll say it differently. The common word from the keeper is this : "Leave me the shooter, make sure the pass can't get through".

If that means letting the shooter do anything with the puck, he's right, as long you keep your body in position to cut a pass to the other guy and then an open net for the shooter an unavailable option.

I understand that there's not much gray area in Rogie's line, but beeing a D while growing up, what you should read to it is what I said above. You can do what you can to make the shooter not getting in a comfort zone, as long you don't allow the pass.

Because if you do, you're in the video room with the team next morning and shown on the TV as the : "What not to do on a odd-man rush!"

# 13 BobSacamano @ 09/07/11 04:42 PM

On the faceoff after the first Montreal goal, the Penguins' D-Man does that horrible "skate to the boards and fire a blind pass backwards, right on the guy's tape."

Hopefully that can be tuned/patched out. Same with the D logic in general, which was totally bizarre on the two Montreal goals. Does the aggression slider help at all?

# 14 FBeaule04 @ 09/07/11 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rogie Vachon


	Thanks FB,.... I`m not trying to be an arse,......just trying to pass along nuggets of gold. If I had a dollar for every time I saw it "coached" wrong. In the real world it`s even worse,.....no video game physics to bail out the defence.

No problem Rogie. It's just in the same bag as the breakaway in that game. People not following hockey would thought that it's easy to score on a breakaway in the NHL.

The best player in the NHL for long was Jussi Jokinnen and he was just over 50% after 2 years of shootout inception. One of the best hands in the league, Pavel Datsyuk was 48% in the same 2 seasons.

So, assuming that it's easy to score on a breakaway in the game is distorted by the inept goalies in NHL 11 to react to dekes and simple moves. EA could defend saying that the save % rate when you take a shot on a breakaway without deking is close to 100%! :-)

# 15 plaidchuck @ 09/07/11 04:49 PM

Either way you can't defend those player goals.. just sad.. The second is even worse, some NHL 09 stuff right there.

# 16 FBeaule04 @ 09/07/11 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plaidchuck


	Either way you can't defend those player goals.. just sad.. The second is even worse, some NHL 09 stuff right there.

I agree, AI was a problem in every title but to me, it's just getting worse. The videos from Chase just scares me about what will happen.

I'm about stopping to fight against the AI and play the game controlling every player on the ice on my side, and make the AI play the toughest they can on the other side with the sliders.

Maybe it's impossible to replicate a scheme for a hockey game. Maybe I'm just asking too much from the AI and I should be thankful to have at least something that looks like hockey.

Maybe asking Hal Gill to play like Bobby Orr is an error to begin with!

# 17 Section_25 @ 09/07/11 05:53 PM

OUCH ..... Fleury should have had that last goal

Thanks for uploading Chase...

# 18 Money99 @ 09/07/11 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Section_25


	OUCH ..... Fleury should have had that last goal Thanks for uploading Chase...

Yup, he need to stay tight to that post. But I was happy to see it wasn't a regular 'top-shelf' goal. It snuck between his trapper and leg pad. Nice to see.

I don't mind goalies being a bit weak because if you're in tight with time and space, a good shooter should be able to capitalize most of the time.

# 19 ChaseB @ 09/07/11 06:18 PM

Yeah I thought there were a couple cool goals here. I wish the physics engine worked in such a way where Gionta would go crashing into the boards while sliding on his gut after that third goal.

# 20 Flamesfan102 @ 09/07/11 07:03 PM

Chase, I have a request:
Can the next game you post be of the Calgary Flames vs Edmonton Oilers?

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