MLB 2K11 News Post

MLB 2K11 Devs Flattered But Not Impressed by MLB 11 The Show Adopting Analog Controls

01:54 PM - February 15, 2011 by vln13

Check out this Destructoid article, which reveals the reaction from MLB 2K11 developers, on MLB 11 The Show's adoption of analog controls.

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Quote:


	"I don't think there's anything wrong with taking what other people do [well]," he told me, acknowledging that the pitch and swing analyzers with ball trails in MLB 2K10 originated from EA Sports' previous-generation classic, MVP Baseball 2005. The folks at Visual Concepts felt reassured to see The Show -- a franchise that has long been viewed as superior to MLB 2K -- taking after a 2K Sports innovation. But Bailey pointed out that analog controls aren't inherently good or bad; "it's how it's done, not what you do." From what he's heard of MLB 11, he doesn't think too much of its analog pitching: Every single one of their pitches is going to be down-up. Well, you know, as a 2K player, that's going to get boring to me, because that's a four-seam fastball -- that's the easiest pitch in our game."

vln13: The MLB 2K11 designers said they were "flattered" by MLB 11 The Show adopting their controls, but felt as if their design was superior based on the fact that their pitching gesture system is more complex. However, Samit Sarkar, the author of the article, seemed to differ from Bailey's opinion, stating The Show's mechanic is interesting and varied in its own way. He will post his impressions of The Show later this week.

This is not to mention the fact that pitching is only a third of the analogue equation, and that 2k's hitting was sub-par last year and it doesn't look like they focused on improving that aspect of the controls.

To me, this is just another case of a less recognized game trying to get attention in a little bit of a cheap way, kind of like how the developers of NBA Elite tried to do with the far superior NBA 2K11. We all know how much their arrogance backfired on them. Any time a developer tells you how you should play the game, in my opinion, red flags should go up. I thought MLB 2K10 made great strides from 2K9 and I pre-ordered both The Show and 2K11. Before I play either game, I cannot make any assumptions about the quality of either control scheme or game as a whole; however, when these kinds of jabs are taken, I cannot help but wonder if there is a tone of desperation here.

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Member Comments

# 1 kt-od @ 02/15/11 01:56 PM

Interesting read. Thanks for posting. I'm not sure, but this might get closed, because comparison threads are against TOS.

# 2 ryan36 @ 02/15/11 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kt-od


	Interesting read. Thanks for posting. I'm not sure, but this might get closed, because comparison threads are against TOS.

Nah, I just moved this to the baseball-other forum. Comparisons are allowed here

# 3 ryan36 @ 02/15/11 02:06 PM

Well, r-stick implementation in baseball is not a 2k innovation, its an EA innovation.

Bailey's pissed because the Show took the one thing that's unique about 2k other than commentary. The Show is attacking the 2k advantage. That being said, I think the Show's mechanic will add more variability to the pitchers, allow more ratings based differentiation , and inherently handle the problem in 2k of pinpoint pitching with a perfect gesture.

Also, the Show's mechanic will have some logic about where the ball misses. In 2k, you screw up the gesture by 20% the location will be 20% off, in some random way. The Show's mechanic seems to have release point as an intrinsic part of the mechanic.

I love 2k's gesture system and the fast pace of the games...that's the bread and butter of 2k, and what made it fun for me last year, quick games (relatively realistic), and great commentary. I play the Show for a whole different reason

# 4 McCannFann @ 02/15/11 02:17 PM

ROFL! Okay, so before I even begin to read the rest of the article, the headline cracked me up.

"MLB 2K11 devs flattered but not impressed by MLB 11 adopting analog controls"

This strikes me as funny, because it makes the guys at 2K sound as if they're really making a standout product (you know, in a good way). Oh, the arrogance...

# 5 bcruise @ 02/15/11 02:21 PM

Let the corporate trolling begin as 2k fires the first shot!

Can't wait to see how SCEA answers....I'd imagine it will involve Kevin Butler though.

# 6 vln13 @ 02/15/11 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcruise


	Let the corporate trolling begin as 2k fires the first shot! Can't wait to see how SCEA answers....I'd imagine it will involve Kevin Butler though.

The nice thing about the dudes at SCEA is that though they try to publicize their product (and the marketing dept. does a great job with funny commericals with the aforementioned VP) they don't seem to resort to cheap jabs.

# 7 ryan36 @ 02/15/11 02:32 PM

Some people at SCEA have been known to take a shot at 2k, but not speaking as a representative of a company on a well-known website, lol.

I'll probably buy both games this year. But it shows how 2k has a complex...as I said , the Show lifted their number 1 selling point. I'm not willing to say The Show will do it better, because I haven't played it yet. But it's gotta make 2k mad.

# 8 jeffy777 @ 02/15/11 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryan36


	Bailey's pissed

I didn't get that impression at all.

"I don't think there's anything wrong with taking what other people do [well]," he told me, acknowledging that the pitch and swing analyzers with ball trails in MLB 2K10 originated from EA Sports' previous-generation classic, MVP Baseball 2005. The folks at Visual Concepts felt reassured to see The Show -- a franchise that has long been viewed as superior to MLB 2K -- taking after a 2K Sports innovation.

# 9 SoxFan01605 @ 02/15/11 03:03 PM

Nice one...Bailey not only claims SCEA copied their system, but copied it poorly...lol.

I personally think that, if SCEA is going to be accused of being derivative of anything, it's MVP 07 and not 2K, but no biggie.

I don't think a dev chirping about who copied what (regardless of his intent) means a whole lot. I can understand what he's doing and would even agree that 2K could still have a more interesting system. We'll see.

I just hope Mr. Bailey gets that pitching difficulty is about more than the control scheme. You could wiggle that stick to your heart's content in 2K10 and still paint the corners with darn near every pitch. If VC got that taken care of, he can yap all he wants about the competition...lol

# 10 N51_rob @ 02/15/11 03:14 PM

I sometimes wish that EA Sports would hire the two voice actors 2K used for football comentary. If a game design is that good other companies should copy it. If it's makes your game better or appeals to a wider audience than IMO you would be stupid not to.

# 11 Blzer @ 02/15/11 03:29 PM

As a fan of 2K's games back in the past and admittedly being loyal fan of their products for the last decade, this comment from their designer really irks me. I honestly think The Show has implemented a better system, and although it's not how I personally would have implemented it myself (I have another system in mind with the right stick completely), it will lead to more pitches not going where you want them to go.

Listen Mr. Bailey: meatballs aside, your pitching system in 2K8 was so fun and versatile. Where that went, I'm not sure. But the fact remains that it's not so much the "how" that I care about, it's more a question of "will this pitching format authentically represent pitching in baseball, down to the inaccuracies involved?" 2K has taken away a lot of the variabilities in their formula they've had since 2K2, and it becomes too easy to become too perfect with it. If you want to talk the talk, I'd say go back to the 3-step pitching in 2K8.

# 12 nemesis04 @ 02/15/11 03:44 PM

The only thing those two pitching systems have in common is that they use the right stick. If anything the one in the Show most resembles MVP NCAA with its own spin to it. It definitely is not as cut and dry as he made it out to be with the up and down, lol.

Both systems will have admirers and adversaries!

# 13 ryan36 @ 02/15/11 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoxFan01605


	I just hope Mr. Bailey gets that pitching difficulty is about more than the control scheme. You could wiggle that stick to your heart's content in 2K10 and still paint the corners with darn near every pitch. If VC got that taken care of, he can yap all he wants about the competition...lol

This was sort of my broader point. 2k's system is fun, but I think the down/up/release point mechanic may yield better results.

# 14 nemesis04 @ 02/15/11 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryan36


	This was sort of my broader point. 2k's system is fun, but I think the down/up/release point mechanic may yield better results.

Just remember it is not just your up and down, you have influence on the left and right direction of the zone as well.

# 15 Knight165 @ 02/15/11 05:49 PM

When did SCEA poke fun at 2K?
I don't remember that at all.

M.K.
Knight165

# 16 swaldo @ 02/15/11 05:57 PM

I guess Bailey never played 'MVP 07 NCAA Baseball' because that's where The Show's new pitching mechanic comes from. It's simply a rip-off of their "Rock & Fire" analog pitching system which is ok with me. I even remember reading posts from people screaming to SCEA to adopt it - and everyone knows The Show devs listen to their community.

So Bailey just got egg on his face, and what really concerns me is the fact he apparently hasn't played MVP 07. If I were a lead dev for a baseball game the first thing I'd do is play every game ever made and note what works and what doesn't in each.

# 17 thaSLAB @ 02/15/11 06:41 PM

LOL, yes Bailey makes its sound very cut and dried. I don't think 2K is in the position to speak on another games development, other than to stir the pot in hopes to gain exposure for their own title.

IMO, the rock and fire method is more true to life when compared to gestures. Afterall, IRL pitching is controlled by grip, arm angle, and release point. All of which are represented in MLBs method. Other than that, you pretty much use the same motion when you pitch in real life (rock and fire).

I also don't recall SCEA taking shots either. Maybe I missed the "MLB Dev flattered, but not impressed by 2Ks my player mode." - even tho EA should be the ones making this statement Bailey makes.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

# 18 rudyjuly2 @ 02/15/11 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustinSainn


	Let's see, the last time I pitched I didn't swing my arms from side to side to throw a slider and I didn't draw an X with my arm to throw a curveball or whatever. The Show's analog pitching is far superior IMO. When you throw the ball you throw in with the same motion everytime, so obviously the same gesture for ever pitch makes sense. The type of pitch is determined by grip (which is represented by which button you push) and the subltety's of how you throw it (and in the Show this will be determined by hitting your release point on the meter and throwing to the correct area of the plate). I saw everyone praising 2K's analog controls for pitching last year but I just didn't get it. What does making a half circle and a straight cut across have to do with throwing a curveball?

For me the argument has nothing to do with realism but rather what is most fun and provides the best sim result. I love gesture pitching. I don't like the meter pitching in the Show and Classic had grown stale. Gesture pitching is a mini-game on it's own. In no way will I pretend that performing a half circle when throwing a slider is more or less realistic. I don't care. I just found it a lot of fun to have a unique system for every pitch. Variety keeps it fresh and I do think this will hurt the Show's analog pitching system. 2K10 was still way too accurate and they didn't have a pitch accuracy slider to help fix this. It certainly hurt the realism and sim aspects of pitching when you rarely walk anyone and paint corners most of the time. That missing slider really hurt the game last year and I'm really hoping they add it to 2K11. I'll be annoyed if it's not.

The Show's system isn't just up and down as you do have to tweak it left/right based on accuracy and the speed of the stick does influence it. It doesn't sound as much fun to me since it lacks 2k's variety although maybe I'll be wrong. Obviously some will like this approach better. I do think that the misses should be more random than what the tutorial video has shown. If I push too far to the right on the stick, the ball shouldn't miss right every time imo. 2K's will be more random and I think that is the better way.

A bigger complaint for the Show may be that you have to execute the pitch DURING the delivery. One reason I preferred Classic over Meter in the past was that I was able to watch the pitcher the entire time and see the result of the play. With meter I was so focused on hitting my marks that I missed a lot of that. The Show's new analog system has the same timing system and I wish they would let you execute the controls just before the pitch so you could actually watch it play out completely.

I have no problem with the Show going analog and have been asking for this to happen sooner than later. Great ideas should always be borrowed so we can all benefit. These two systems will be compared at release and I'll enjoy reading the various comments on them once we can actually use them. The biggest benefit of analog controls is in the pitching for me so this is something I'm really going to try out for both games. Let's hope the demos come out before release this year.

# 19 thundergatti @ 02/15/11 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rudyjuly2


	For me the argument has nothing to do with realism but rather what is most fun and provides the best sim result. I love gesture pitching. I don't like the meter pitching in the Show and Classic had grown stale. Gesture pitching is a mini-game on it's own. In no way will I pretend that performing a half circle when throwing a slider is more or less realistic. I don't care. I just found it a lot of fun to have a unique system for every pitch. Variety keeps it fresh and I do think this will hurt the Show's analog pitching system. 2K10 was still way too accurate and they didn't have a pitch accuracy slider to help fix this. It certainly hurt the realism and sim aspects of pitching when you rarely walk anyone and paint corners most of the time. That missing slider really hurt the game last year and I'm really hoping they add it to 2K11. I'll be annoyed if it's not. The Show's system isn't just up and down as you do have to tweak it left/right based on accuracy and the speed of the stick does influence it. It doesn't sound as much fun to me since it lacks 2k's variety although maybe I'll be wrong. Obviously some will like this approach better. I do think that the misses should be more random than what the tutorial video has shown. If I push too far to the right on the stick, the ball shouldn't miss right every time imo. 2K's will be more random and I think that is the better way. [B]A bigger complaint for the Show may be that you have to execute the pitch DURING the delivery. One reason I preferred Classic over Meter in the past was that I was able to watch the pitcher the entire time and see the result of the play. With meter I was so focused on hitting my marks that I missed a lot of that. The Show's new analog system has the same timing system and I wish they would let you execute the controls just before the pitch so you could actually watch it play out completely. I have no problem with the Show going analog and have been asking for this to happen sooner than later. Great ideas should always be borrowed so we can all benefit. These two systems will be compared at release and I'll enjoy reading the various comments on them once we can actually use them. The biggest benefit of analog controls is in the pitching for me so this is something I'm really going to try out for both games. Let's hope the demos come out before release this year.

While I agree with you about the circular gestures being preferable, I completely disagree with you about the statements that I bolded.

You hit in real-time; you field in real-time. Why would you not pitch in real time? It would just seem so unnatural and wrong to do the gesture and then have the animation unfold. I believe this was a criticism of 2k pitching last year (there's a thread about it somewhere).

I haven't really analyzed the video of MLB 11, but it would be sick if the delivery/arm slot is noticeably altered or different when, for example, the pitcher overthrows it and pulls it into the dirt. Anybody know?

# 20 Dog @ 02/15/11 11:23 PM

The fact that MLB 2K devs are poking fun at MLB: The Show devs is laughable.

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