Madden NFL 11 News Post

Madden: Editing Player Ratings in Franchise - Need Your Thoughts

11:57 AM - November 22, 2010 by Ian_Cummings

So Josh Looman and I looked into this a bit this morning and I thought I'd post back some results.

Good News: It's very easy enough to 'unlock' the screen to allow someone to edit everything about their players in Franchise mode. Took like 10 minutes to do.

Bad News: Unfortunately, there are about a million things that can go wrong with this unlocked. Now I realize what you all will use this feature for which is to fine-tune progression and try and get extremely realistic stats, but here are just a few of the things that came up when we messed around with it:

There are countless "cheesing" things that the user can do like dropping your player ratings right before the off-season, signing him to the cheapest deal possible, and then setting him back.
Your save file can easily be rendered non-functional if you change enough CPU team's player's ratings where they can't re-sign any players. At this point the mode typically crashes or hangs and won't be recoverable from.
We also don't display that potential rating in the edit player screen now, and if you were to edit the actual player's overall rating to be higher than his potential rating, the game has a chance of crashing in many different spots. We'd have to add it in and always force it to be higher than the OVR I guess.

So I need help from you all...

Please comment and be specific about what exactly you NEED to edit. What is your overall specific intent with wanting to edit these players? Are there certain time frames we can lock it to? Are there certain specific changes you could only be allowed to make instead of full league-wide control? By reducing the amount of variables we can look into finding ways to make this happen. Unfortunately allowing the user to set every player in the league anytime from a 0 to a 99 is not going to be an option because of all the instability it will cause...and we just don't have the testing man-power to ensure that the mode won't start crashing all over the place.

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# 21 TheRunAndShoot @ 11/22/10 03:31 PM

There are countless "cheesing" things that the user can do like dropping your player ratings right before the off-season, signing him to the cheapest deal possible, and then setting him back.

This can already happen by changing a players position. eg: Taking a CB and moving him to OLB or S. I already do this because some of the contract AI is wacky. 73 OVR CB's asking for more than a 84 OVR HB/WR. Or old guys on in the last years of their career asking for big bucks. Lawyer Milloy wanted like 10mill/2yrs from me!!!! So this shouldn't be a factor.

Your save file can easily be rendered non-functional if you change enough CPU team's player's ratings where they can't re-sign any players. At this point the mode typically crashes or hangs and won't be recoverable from.

Hopefully with some TLC this can be fixed. If it can't I'd rather be able to manually adjust the potential ratings on the roster file before entering franchise mode. Just for the seahawks- Aaron Curry, Golden Tate, Anthony McCoy, LeRoy Hill, and Babs are all too high. And Mike Williams, Cameron Morrah, Red Bryant, Chris Clemons, Walter Thurmond, Roy Lewis, and Cam Chancellor are all too low.

We also don't display that potential rating in the edit player screen now, and if you were to edit the actual player's overall rating to be higher than his potential rating, the game has a chance of crashing in many different spots. We'd have to add it in and always force it to be higher than the OVR I guess.

Personally I don't have a problem with this, MLB the Show does this and they've got one of the best franchise modes around.

What is your overall specific intent with wanting to edit these players?
As the real NFL season progresses I won't have to restart a franchise just because I can now have updated rosters.

Are there certain time frames we can lock it to?
Not exactaly clear on what you mean... But they ratings should be editable during the regular season but not the playoffs. It would be nice to edit them after the super bowl though.

Are there certain specific changes you could only be allowed to make instead of full league-wide control?
It would be nice to be able to update contracts also, Davone Bess got a new contract a couple weeks ago but it's still not in the game. If there could be a line drawn between the GM of the team and the "Franchise Overlord" that would be ideal. The GM could do everything that is in the game now but the "Overlord" could change things like contracts and ratings.

# 22 Hova57 @ 11/22/10 03:46 PM

Ian I propose that you guys continue doing things like this certain aspects you guys may look into doing that are on the fence ideas see what type of options would be acceptable or if its even worth it. I think you would see some of the same individuals with good insight. You guys could base your next step with our ideas in mind.

# 23 abeg1713 @ 11/22/10 03:53 PM

thx for posting this. i don't really get the urge to change the ratings but i would like the ratings in offline franchise change from week to week depending on the stats from the previous week. also not have the ratings link with contracts. like someone said earlier have it linked with season stats

# 24 mavfan21 @ 11/22/10 03:59 PM

How about a limit of 20 (or whatever # works to prevent instability) points to "spend" per player?

Make it available in-season only, not in pre or post.

# 25 mavfan21 @ 11/22/10 04:01 PM

While we're talking editing.....can something be done to allow created players faces to be displayed in Franchise menu and stat screens instead of the black portrait.

# 26 thedudescrew @ 11/22/10 04:41 PM

I am not one who likes or wants to edit rosters in franchise mode but I would like to have the progression weeks from PS2 back and I would like to see a way to shut off the Potentials. I loved playing Madden 09 on the PS2 cause I could use anyone and have them go from 70 to 90 in three seasons. You can't do that in this game, not unless they have A potential. I think we should be able to shut it off since we all paid 60 bucks for this game. I have played 8 seasons on my franchise and I love it but I am not happy that I can't use a D pot QB and have him get better even though he is putting up some good stats year in and year out.

I like the idea of being able to edit guys but I would rather have the opportunity to shut off the Potentials all together so it does matter who I draft. I will always be able to progress them in a timely manner and have them become studs by the end of their rookie contract.

Thanks for taking the time to listen to us Ian. You guys are attempting to make things better and we greatly appreciate it. You are showing us that EA does care about the Hardcore and Amateur Madden players.

# 27 BezO @ 11/22/10 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KBLover


	This makes a LOT of sense. I'd even want to take it a step further to include mental/technique ratings (weighted by position of course - RBF shouldn't matter as much to a WR as to a TE or FB and obviously much more to a OL. AWR should matter a lot to QBs while still of some importance everywhere else, etc)

I would exclude mental/technique from potential. The theory is that everyone CAN learn. All players can learn to the point where their awareness is high & techniques are good. But the slow athlete will never be fast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KBLover


	What if we don't think the player should have that potential rating? For example, if the game gave Tebow A potential or disagreed with Mark Sanchez being A potential to start this season, but wanted to leave their actual ratings alone, but put their POTs at B? Or we disagree with some of the POTs the 2011 real life class gets and want to modify just the POTs and not the actual ratings? I'm sure people in the "Brady was once rated D potential" crowd would want to do some "revisionist history" and have him develop in game from a youngster to a star, without having to make him a star from day one just to get A potential on him, and then start a franchise to see how he develops in game, things like that.

If they do this correctly, potential ratings would be tied to physical size & ability. You shouldn't be able to lower potential without lowering physical ratings.

But I think folks mix up potential and actual ability & production. Potential is a guess at a particular point in time. A coach saying a player has D potential shouldn't limit his future ratings. It's just his opinion on the likelihood a player will reach a certain level.

In the case of Tebow, his potential should be high. He's a big, strong, fast QB. If he were to get the coaching Brady got, and could embrace it, he'd be one of the best ever. BETTER than Brady. I think folks are down on Tebow's potential rating because he hasn't fufilled it... yet. Think about what folks thought of Vick until this year.

In the case of Tom Brady, he just surpassed what most felt his potential was. He had/has superior coaching and he got stronger. It doesn't change the fact that he was a skinny QB with not a lot of potential.

Some folks never reach their potential and some surpass it.

# 28 proud2bawesome @ 11/22/10 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by huskerwr38


	Maybe you shouldn't really link contracts to ratings. Maybe link contracts to season stats and career stats, because in real life if a running back rushes for 1500 yards for two straight seasons, even if he runs a 4.7 40 and only has a vertical leap of 25 inches, he's going to get a big contract. That way, even if you re-rate Peyton Manning to an overall of 10 and you want to re-sign him, you'll still owe him a big contract because of his stats. However, if he's a 10 and he goes through the season, he'll obviously not do good and he can be signed to a lower contract. Hope that make sense. As for rookies contracts can be link to a combination of their stats and combine performance.

This is a great idea. I also would like to appeal to you Ian to have the option to not be able to see ratings in franchise mode; that way so many more features would be relevant, like the idea above. If I drafted someone in the 1st round, signed him to a huge contract, then see he's a 54 OVR, I could just cut him before he even played a game. That never happens. Also, there is the ability in franchise to change LBs to DEs and an 80 OLB suddenly becomes a 99 DE. If you couldn't see the ratings in the first place (other than combine-style stats), then you wouldn't be as compelled to cheat the system in the first place. Imagine how awesome it would be to draft a running back, and then finding out how great or bad they are through performance. Preseason would suddenly mean something. People wouldn't just sim through seasons. You would be able to have emotional investments in the decisions you make in your franchise, all leading to better longevity within the series. Imagine finding out that your prized rookie RB was injury prone not by looking at a 60 INJ rating in the depth chart, but by him actually getting injured, and then all these factors come in to play with the way contracts are valued and furthermore affect the CPU's logic when making trades and draft decisions...It would be freaking sweet.

# 29 jjsmitty34 @ 11/22/10 05:09 PM

Do you guys think they will release it as a DLC?

# 30 Simiantality @ 11/22/10 05:09 PM

* There are countless "cheesing" things that the user can do like dropping your player ratings right before the off-season, signing him to the cheapest deal possible, and then setting him back.

My suggestion would be to implement a holdout feature. At the beginning of each off-season, and again every time the user leaves the character edit screen, check the player(s) ratings and compare them to the current contract. If the OVR is +/- 10 (or so) from the expected contract, have them hold out for another deal. You could alternately have a small file that flags the players that have been edited, and only allow for holdouts from edited players.

* Your save file can easily be rendered non-functional if you change enough CPU team's player's ratings where they can't re-sign any players. At this point the mode typically crashes or hangs and won't be recoverable from.

This seems a non-issue. If someone is changing ratings enough to disable the CPU's ability to resign players, having the mode crash is a reasonable solution. I doubt there would be a sufficient loss of sales from this staying as it is.

* We also don't display that potential rating in the edit player screen now, and if you were to edit the actual player's overall rating to be higher than his potential rating, the game has a chance of crashing in many different spots. We'd have to add it in and always force it to be higher than the OVR I guess.

I would suggest redoing the way that potential functions entirely. Potentials should be a soft-cap, not a hard-cap, and should be lowered across the board. There seem to be many instances of players exceeding their "potential" due to circumstances in the real NFL, and this should be reflected in Madden.

Instead of raising someone's ratings by measuring how much their performance exceeds their expected performance, and then raising their OVR rating based upon how far OVR is currently below POT:

[(Performance) - (Expected Performance)] * [(Potential) - (Current OVR)]

change it so something that uses a Gaussian curve instead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaussian_function

If you have a function that uses the derivative of that curve to modulate the (Performance - Expected) number, you'll have a natural POT rating that will act like a magnet, constantly pulling players to their potential. If they're very close to potential, they can go up or down a little if their performance is close to what would be expected, but they can also go a bit beyond it if they have an exceptional performance (Ladell Betts 2006) . Likewise, they can temporarily drop well below potential if they're not being utilized properly (LaDanian Tomlinson 2009). Also, if their OVR is quite a bit below their POT, a few stellar games can quickly bring them up to speed.

I'll be happy to go into more mathematical detail if anyone would like.

# 31 adembroski @ 11/22/10 05:11 PM

I don't think it needs to be an option all of the time. Hell, during Pre-season would probably be enough for the most part, but for some during the regular season might be important too. I'd make it a point to lock it during the off-season for the sake of stability.

The one that I am concerned about is rendering the save invalid. I don't care if Joe Schmo wants to cheat in his game... I wont in mine.

# 32 Palo20 @ 11/22/10 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA


	So I need help from you all... Please comment and be specific about what exactly you NEED to edit. What is your overall specific intent with wanting to edit these players? Are there certain time frames we can lock it to? Are there certain specific changes you could only be allowed to make instead of full league-wide control? By reducing the amount of variables we can look into finding ways to make this happen. Unfortunately allowing the user to set every player in the league anytime from a 0 to a 99 is not going to be an option because of all the instability it will cause...and we just don't have the testing man-power to ensure that the mode won't start crashing all over the place.

I really like the idea mentioned above about tying contracts to production instead of OVR. Is that possible with the current system and would that solve the problem with the crashes?

Why do we need to edit?

I want the ability to edit player ratings because I generally do one franchise where I like to duplicate the NFL season. I start around opening day and play a bunch of different teams' games throughout the year, and I would like the weekly ratings changes from Donny Moore to be reflected in my franchise. So I'd like the option to change Vick into a game changer in my franchise for the 2010 season.

Also, giving us the ability to edit ratings would satisfy a number of different hardcore gamers:

--People like me who like to edit during the current season
--People who want imported NCAA draft classes to look right
--People who don't trust the current progression system and would like to make their own changes.

MLB the Show has one of the most respected franchise modes around, and they've given the user complete editing control. I'm not sure what workarounds they've used to combat "user cheesing" but it may be worth looking at.

Once again, if progression could be tied to production, I think that would help a great deal.

What do we NEED to edit?

--Ratings (most important to me personally)
--Player Appearance
--Home/Road or Warm/Cold Weather options for equipment

When do we want to edit?

I'd like the ability to edit in season.

# 33 Winnipeg59 @ 11/22/10 05:18 PM

Ian, thank you (and Josh) for asking.

Personally I can see editing prior to a franchise but once the franchise starts the ebb and flow of the player and games played should dictate the rating movement. I wouldn't edit within a franchise (but that's just me).

Don't want to repeat what's in the previous posts, but working on more dynamic progression/regression (even a weekly, Josh Looman-type tweak based on performance), certainly looking at performance based contract demands and having US on an equal footing with signing players compared to the CPU prices, finding a way to make players as smart or smarter yet have their skills degrade via the ratings and allowing us to freely move people around at positions without the minimum player requirement are ALL excellent ideas.

Stay focused on 12...and offline franchise specifially!!! Please.

# 34 KingV2k3 @ 11/22/10 05:35 PM

Firstly, thanks for continuing to stop by for input like this, despite the often poor behavior displayed by some of the (adjectives edited in acordance to TOS) members...

Anyway:

I am strictly an offline franchise guy...

I usually grab the opening day roster, go in and make whatever edits I feel are needed BEFORE starting my franchise and live with it...

In some circumstances though, I'd like to be able to bump a guy up...

Take, for instance, the case of Stevie Johnson of the Bills...

He would (IMHO) deserve more than the usual "progression" bump, based on his progress this season...

This is often also true of some rookies who get saddled with low AWR for the remainder of their "careers"...

I suggest that, in these cases you could designate a few players, per team, per season for a bye week bump...similar in impact to what offseason progression would give them...

It would give a few guys a "double bump" and that's all...

A few extra OVR points to be distributed to a few guys per team per season...

Thanks!

# 35 khaliib @ 11/22/10 05:50 PM

Most folks edit player ratings for gameplay according to their perspective. I know you guys hate this, but what NBA 2k11 player editing feature does is allow for players to be edited to perform to what the gamer sees on real TV.

We are at the point were all sports games player editing needs to be at this level because of so many perspectives about what looks "Realistic". This would mean that Madden would need ratings to be broken down even further so that it affects what a player does (Ex. WR preference for hand or body to catches).

Unlike college, NFL players do not need to have all ratings applied to them because only a handful of players change positions in the Pro's due to the money involved and roster size available. So have raings only for positions they are being payed to play. If someone wants to try a guy at another positions, let all ratings outside of mobility ratings remain unkown.

Get rid of the OVR and Potential rating.
Potential should be changed back to "Team Importance" because it really does depend on the scheme/philosophy the coach utilizes and how that player fits in (Ex. C. Johnson would'nt fit into a power/pounding type of running scheme, he wouldn't last which minimizes his importance to such a team).

OVR is only a visual cue that really has little value. A 65 rated QB w/C.J. speed/quickness will always be better/most wanted than a slow 90 rated QB. Speed will always be "King" in football video games.
As in real life, you will always put the player in that will help you to accomplish your scheme/goal.

Also, the OVR prevents you from utilizing the lower end of the 1-99 scale because it is accumalitive driven.
I think 90 ratings should be reserved for Elite guys (P. Manning, J. Rice, W. Payton etc...) whose career play over serveral seasons has put them there. Putting a C.J. or even D. Jackson in the 90's in such a short NFL career just takes away from the meaning of ratings to me. I would create levels that are stat driven that as they continue to perform, they go up or down a level over the course of their career (90's=HOF, 80's=All Pro, 70's=Starter, 60's=Backup, 50's=Depth Type, 40's=Bust)
**It would help with deciding value and what type of contract to offer.
**Injuries would finally play a role, as missing games causes them to drop and need to relook at contracts.
**It would allow a bonus (fan support, sales--ala B. Farve) to be applied to team.

Athletic abilities should represent across the board, not different for each position (Ex. 75 speed for TE is different than a 75 speed DE) or (STR for DB's should be different from those on OL)

Things I would like to able to edit:
**Would really help to be able to +/- global position edit like in NBA Live 10**

Arc and speed of QB throws, because the field size is not represented properly (for visual purposes, I think) which allows out routes to be zipped from opposite side hash mark with ease. (Make field wider PLEASE)

Be able to edit color scheme of teams (uni's and field) like in College Hoops 2k8. Would add a nice visual wrinkle to be able to adjust colors w/out losing the audio commentary attached to the team.

Able to change stats of players in Draft which would help drive the draft projection of a player.

just my thought on some things.

# 36 t-mac357 @ 11/22/10 05:55 PM

We should be able to edit 99% of all we could edit. They should take a page from 2k, if a user wants to mess up his franchise mode let them. The ability to edit is really important though.

# 37 bcruise @ 11/22/10 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t-mac357


	We should be able to edit 99% of all we could edit. They should take a page from 2k, if a user wants to mess up his franchise mode let them. The ability to edit is really important though.

Ian already explained that Sony and Microsoft won't let that fly.

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...03-post18.html

# 38 jyoung @ 11/22/10 06:19 PM

One other roster issue:

Instead of the generic "LOLB" and "ROLB" labels,

I would love to see linebackers classified by scheme (3-4 vs. 4-3) and position (weak-side vs. strong-side).

The skill set needed for 3-4 LBs (blitzers) is totally different from the 4-3 guys (more coverage-oriented).

Ditto for weak-side LBs (usually lighter, athletic guys who pursue well) and strong-side LBs (stronger guys who take lead blocks head on and have to shed them).

The same philosophy can be extended to how defensive linemen are sorted.

3-4 linemen are mostly stationary space-eaters.

4-3 linemen are lighter and are usually involved in more twists and stunts.

This kind of classification system could be used to replace the useless "overall" rating.

# 39 hobbes2d @ 11/22/10 06:40 PM

Quote:


	There are countless "cheesing" things that the user can do like dropping your player ratings right before the off-season, signing him to the cheapest deal possible, and then setting him back. Your save file can easily be rendered non-functional if you change enough CPU team's player's ratings where they can't re-sign any players. At this point the mode typically crashes or hangs and won't be recoverable from. We also don't display that potential rating in the edit player screen now, and if you were to edit the actual player's overall rating to be higher than his potential rating, the game has a chance of crashing in many different spots. We'd have to add it in and always force it to be higher than the OVR I guess. So I need help from you all... Please comment and be specific about what exactly you NEED to edit. What is your overall specific intent with wanting to edit these players? Are there certain time frames we can lock it to? Are there certain specific changes you could only be allowed to make instead of full league-wide control? By reducing the amount of variables we can look into finding ways to make this happen. Unfortunately allowing the user to set every player in the league anytime from a 0 to a 99 is not going to be an option because of all the instability it will cause...and we just don't have the testing man-power to ensure that the mode won't start crashing all over the place.

I have multiple comments for why the hardcore Madden gamer wants to edit players:

First, I think it's important to allow people to have the ability to tweak the game to their liking. The idea that so many tweaks can cause the game to crash and Sony/Microsoft etc won't allow you to release a game with known crashes sounds like a load of BS to me. Especially when they have released video game systems with known defects and most games are released with multiple bugs and serious crashing issues at launch.

Frankly I don't think it's the consumers problem if you're not able to find fixes for such issues. Especially if you're not capable of putting in things that were in Madden 6 years ago on an older system.

If editing so many players causes problem for CPU controlled teams signing their own players then perhaps maybe you guys need to focus on what issues plague the overall Free Agent signing system in your game. How is it that the FA system can be so random? And why are borderline bench players asking for obscene amounts of money in franchise mode? Is there a way you could maybe tailor the contracts towards player production instead of player rating? Or maybe the player ratings need to be tweaked as well.

One of my issues and therefore needs towards being able to edit player ratings is how off kilter the ratings themselves often are. Take Vernon Davis for example, he is one of the best TE's in football right? But he's not as good as say Dallas Clark or Antonio Gates. Those guys should arguably be the top rated TE's in the game. However, because of Davis' physical ability and his speed/strength etc ratings if I go to tweak him to be a better blocker or tweak his route running or something just a little bit too much and suddenly he is rated on par with them. So for me personally I'm always attempting to tweak and get the most accurate ratings possible when I go into my franchise so that I can have an accurate representation of the league, and frankly I don't think it's too much to ask to allow us to edit all of the players in the game and edit other aspects of the game as well. If something was allowed in old generation Madden, then it should be in Next Gen as well, and there should be improvements made upon those features as well.

Also, another big reason gamers like to edit things or player ratings is because they like to create fantasy teams/players/leagues or historical leagues/players/teams as well. For years I have made my on roster sets of classic rosters in an attempt to relieve or make new history with Madden and great teams of the past. There is a big interest in this not just for Madden but most sports games. Just look at the interest NBA 2K11 has garnered with their classic teams and Jordan mode for proof. Or MLB the Show's roster creation forum. There is tons of interest in the ability to create and mod the game to our liking. And those games aren't crashing and having huge issues with that ability.

Another reason is for accurate draft classes and being able to tweak those players as well. I'd also like to advocate for maybe an EA Locker type of share system (not sure if this has already been discussed or planned for Madden '12) so that people can share roster files, sliders etc. The same for the ability to edit draft classes or make your own draft classes even if you don't own NCAA Football as someone suggested above sounds like a great idea as well.

I guarantee that the more customization is implemented and allowed for the fans the more people are going to want to continue to play your product. I know countless people that have completely given up on Madden entirely because it has been missing so many features that it use to have or should be capable of having. If these things return and you continue to take our input to heart, I believe those people will come back.

Thanks for your time and interest into our concerns/comments Ian.

# 40 hobbes2d @ 11/22/10 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wEEman33


	One other roster issue: Instead of the generic "LOLB" and "ROLB" labels, I would love to see linebackers classified by scheme (3-4 vs. 4-3) and position (weak-side vs. strong-side). The skill set needed for 3-4 LBs (blitzers) is totally different from the 4-3 guys (more coverage-oriented). Ditto for weak-side LBs (usually lighter, athletic guys who pursue well) and strong-side LBs (stronger guys who take lead blocks head on and have to shed them). The same philosophy can be extended to how defensive linemen are sorted. 3-4 linemen are mostly stationary space-eaters. 4-3 linemen are lighter and are usually involved in more twists and stunts. This kind of classification system could be used to replace the useless "overall" rating.

Having multiple player types per position and having each team philosophy have specific player position philosophies might be able to tie into how those players are rated as well. Like in Head Coach '09. If I had a 3-4 ILB type and tried to run a Cover 2 defense, his rating and potential would drop significantly. Couldn't this be a possible solution?

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