NHL 11 News Post

Pucking Ridiculous (The OBG Chronicles): Developer Dialogue

10:38 AM - July 8, 2010 by RaychelSnr

Before I begin a journey into the collective hearts and minds of my readers, I must first acknowledge the many supporters and e-friends I have accumulated in my countless hours surfing the OS forums over the last two years. To everyone in the dynasty section on the boards, I thank you all for the support and kind words you shared that often inspired me at times when I needed a push. I would not have this opportunity if it were not for all of the encouragement, so one more time I thank all of you.

Now, in this opening edition of Pucking Ridiculous (The OBG Chronicles), I would like to touch on a subject that unfortunately goes unmentioned far too often. In this case, I am speaking about the lack of gratitude and respect that is given to developers who take time out of their days to log on to the OS forums to seek our advice and input in regards to what we would like to see in an upcoming game.

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# 1 Saijahn @ 07/08/10 11:21 AM

don't know who you are, but at least you were willing to deal with the people. you said something that should have ended your rant early though, people will never be satisfied.

in these times we as customers feel like money is hard to come by so if we drop $65 on a game it should be up to snuff. Some of these games that come out have boneheaded mistakes, like the Dev's didn't even care to correct them.

Like NBA 2K10 had graphical errors, and now after the 2nd and final patch PF's and C's act like swingmen, while swingmen act like bigs. No 3rd patch in the works for that. So now we have to drop another $65 on 2k11 to see if it's corrected, which will of course have more bugs. So it's a vicious cycle that's hard to get out of and causes so much resentment towards you guys.

If sports games got it right the first time there would be no need for annual releases. Just roster updates.

# 2 NYwRiter94 @ 07/08/10 01:36 PM

I really like where you took this first article OBG (by the way--congrats again on the new column). But there's something I'd like to add:

Sure, it's easy to pick out the things wrong with the game. The occasional AI tic-tac-toe passing, the seemingly mindless AI teammate goalies (especially in EASHL >_<), and lots more. But I don't think enough people really take the time to ENJOY the game. I have both NHL 10 and 2k10 (to be fair, I did not pay for either, so I understand that you'd be more critical if you were to spend $60 on the game), and although both games have their flaws, I appreciate each game for what it brings. 2k10, while generally considered the weaker game, has many interesting features--2kshare for rosters and sliders, the Winter Classic, ability to view other team's schedules and box scores, even the ability to use team budgets instead of a cap. At the same time, I think EA's title does some things really well--the graphics are, at the very least, high-quality, the Be A Pro and especially EASHL innovations are pretty fantastic, and overall the game has a very polished feel.

So the next time you play one of these games, spend less time screaming at the television because Henrik Lundqvist just passed the puck through two pairs of Rangers' legs and Zach Parise picked it up to score a ridiculous warping goal, and spend a little more time jumping up and down with excitement because Marian Gaborik just ripped a shot past Brodeur with 45 seconds left to send the game into OT. I guarantee you'll instantly start enjoying the game more.

# 3 malachijohn666 @ 07/08/10 02:11 PM

I for one completely agree with your synopsis here. I too have seen and experienced the overwhelming sense of entitlement. People think that if you spend money on something it should be the exact thing you dream it to be. At the end of the day if Devs and gaming companies publish something and you don't like it then don't buy it. I realize demos can mis lead, but there are a plethora of review sites to visit. Just because the game has the current year slapped on it and it is new doesn't mean it will be better than last year. The buyer has to BEWARE!. If times are tight and indeed they are then there is extra incentive to patrol the review sites and make sure it is something you like.

If a company releases crap we vote with our feet and don't buy it. Yes I realize that there isn't an alternative some times, but you do have older games right?

# 4 malachijohn666 @ 07/08/10 02:14 PM

Also, how many complaints are floating around there about how a certain players skates aren't the right style or color... I mean c'mon already...

# 5 mike24forever @ 07/08/10 04:11 PM

If $65 hurts a persons pocketbook too much, then video games is not a hobbie for people to invest in. I hate the arguement about it's their hard earned money. People like to complain and they use this as a reason to do so. The best part about those who constantly complain about sport games, is they have no idea about what goes into making a video game.

Entitlement is a huge problem, however hopefully with the new rules at OS, these people will be banned and we will not have to read what they think.

# 6 allstar3970 @ 07/08/10 06:10 PM

I agree to an extent with the article. No matter what they fix it's either A) "good, should've been done already" or B) "well what about this next minute detail i thought of now that the other one is in there"

# 7 Vikes1 @ 07/08/10 07:41 PM

First off, I didn't realize there was a problem with how the NHL devs were being treated here on our board. I certainly can't claim to have read every single post...but I do follow the board nearly on a daily basis. And at least to my memory, I can't recall a post that I would have considered rude or nasty.

I don't mean to blow off Stephen's article...but again, to my knowledge..the interaction has gone extremely well between us and the devs. Of course just my opinion.

It's been my belief from the start, that the interaction has been handled very well. The devs that have been here haven't to my knowledge, made any pie in the sky claims about what to expect from the game. That they have been much more factual than hype ridden on whats to be expected from the game. And it seemed to me...that most people here have appreciated the frankness.

I sure hope that Stephen doesn't take offense to this post. I certainty don't mean for it to offend. But myself...I just haven't really seen a problem.

# 8 onlybygrace @ 07/08/10 10:36 PM

Looks like the range of feedback I expected...

Some who believe I'm wrong, some who agree, and those who believe there is no reason for the subject to be considered.

I'm quite sure the truth is somewhere in between.

As far as offending me goes, its pretty hard to do. I know what I'm in for with you guys.

# 9 b3organ @ 07/09/10 07:46 AM

I'll say good read. People must remember that although this forum represents very small section of gamers there is quite a variation even among us. People come with different backgrounds, age, etc. and these things affect how we value this "community involvement"-thing. And I must also say that I haven't seen bad attitude towards Jason in the NHL section. I can't say if the things have changed but those bad messages I've seen were in the Madden section where the devs are also very active (or at least were). And I also think that because our minds have been open and respectful it has been an easy task for Jason to come and interact. I feel that this involvement is special (no other games have such a strong involvement, imo) and we must keep it so that both sides are satisfied. And those who claim that it's their job. True but still no other dev team have made it so good. Jason even answers to private messages quickly. And because Bama83 likes examples. For me it's same as you would have an entitled repair person for your new car. Just give a call and he'll come as Jason answers.

# 10 quietcool72 @ 07/09/10 11:19 AM

To some extent, I can agree. But I think the fundamental problem is that defensive AI on both hockey products has not progressed to the point that the rest of the game has. EA's way to compensate for that was super-human netminders who can rarely if ever be beaten on a good, quick, open shot. 2K's answer for bad defensive AI was to give a speed cheat to the AI skaters on D. Both issues make the game feel contrived (especially in the EA product- when you can outshoot the CPU team by such drastic shot numbers and still lose regularly..as the AI can score contrived garbage goals that the AI netminder on their side would almost never let in.)

But, to a bigger issue, I see a curious shift of how site admin runs forums on OS, ever since the EA devs started coming here. So there's this new attitude from OS writers of "many complain too much".

An interesting shift, and, dare I say, curious. Then we have things like the NCAA 10 review score...among others...

# 11 Winnipeg59 @ 07/09/10 11:49 AM

Great thread.

Obviously you will not be able to satisfy all the people, all the time. For some gameplay is a priority, for others it's stats, realistic simming, better drafting and yet others want a realistic avatar black-eye when they finish a fight. And there are passionate people who trumpet each of those things as "live or die" features they need and voice their passion accordingly.

From a business standpoint, I'm sure the developers are either concerned with or guided in specific directions to develop and expand their brand. They have to walk the precarious tightrope of keeping the core users (and hardcore users) happy and excited each release, yet also find a way to bring more people to the party that is EA NHL. And that may mean totally casual users who may not even have a clue about hockey...and putting things in the game that a hardcore user simply can't imagine spending precious development time on!

The internet gives everyone a relatively equal voice and sometimes the vocal minority take better advantage of that.

Constructive criticsm and well thought out suggestions from one side should be balanced with communication and response (while maintaining the intergrity of the business) from the other side.

Making sure whatever the developers/EA do decide to put into the game works as flawlessly as possible, either out-of-the-box or via timely patches, so that both hardcore and newcomer are impressed (even blown away) goes long and hard to keeping any/all EA NHL fans thrilled!

Ultimately it's probably better to have even rigorous debate than to have users simply go elsewhere with whatever disposable income they have...

That too is always the fine line the developers walk!

Either way, I am excited about what NHL11 will have for me when it arrives!!!

# 12 b3organ @ 07/09/10 02:58 PM

I totally agree with Bama83 (above post) but I think the situation is so that the devs are also open-minded and they would/want to tell us nearly everything they know but the business world is made so that they are not allowed. It is same thing in all "sectors". People who develop cars, phones, computers are not allowed to talk about their product before publishing. There are always those who control what can be said at certain time of dev cycle.

# 13 Game4fun @ 07/10/10 05:32 AM

Wish I new more about Hockey. Sometime I will pick it up. I'm big on football and basketball. Someday. I agree about showing the devs some respect.

# 14 JimPaek @ 07/10/10 06:38 AM

I appreciate the work put into the game. However, there can always be the little things that can hurt the game for some people. It's no different every year. I played NHL10 less than any other year because of some small, but important, flaws (like players not wanting to change lines and get off the ice, etc.) that would not help my enjoyment of the game.

That being said, I do think that the NHL team appears to be plugged into the community and strives to make the best game possible. Unfortunately for everyone, they haven't mastered a perfect game yet,

# 15 Redshirt_EA @ 07/12/10 03:45 AM

Some thoughts on the subject...

For the most part people behave with civility towards devs on forums, esp. on OS. It is the internet and it is more or less anonymous, so a certain amount of garbage is to be expected and with that understanding I have no real complaints about how things go. I don't want dev presence here to change how the boards work, esp. with respect to rules for posting and censoring.

Contrary to what's been suggested by one of the posts devs do not have to post here. It is not part of our jobs and we have to go out of our way to be allowed to post on forums. There are people who have the job of doing PR, devs jobs are to make the game. For a dev, hours spent on forums are hours not spent directly on improving the game, or hours taken from personal time (overwhelmingly the latter, when there's a distinction between the two). I think the feedback from forums, along with playing the game ourselves, is essential to the job. That's a big part of why I'm here, but that is my own decision.

Posting can be quite awkward for a dev for a number of reasons. There are things we can't say, e.g. future plans that are (or may be) business sensitive, and things I can't discuss because they were not my decision or in my area of responsibility. Dealing with criticism can also be awkward because we don't control the resources that are available, which is typically what limits us from doing more. For me these limitations are the biggest challenge being here and most of the headaches interacting in the forums come from people who can't separate me, as an individual developer, from NHL as a whole or EA as a company.

# 16 onlybygrace @ 07/14/10 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redshirt_EA


	Some thoughts on the subject... For the most part people behave with civility towards devs on forums, esp. on OS. It is the internet and it is more or less anonymous, so a certain amount of garbage is to be expected and with that understanding I have no real complaints about how things go. I don't want dev presence here to change how the boards work, esp. with respect to rules for posting and censoring. Contrary to what's been suggested by one of the posts devs do not have to post here. It is not part of our jobs and we have to go out of our way to be allowed to post on forums. There are people who have the job of doing PR, devs jobs are to make the game. For a dev, hours spent on forums are hours not spent directly on improving the game, or hours taken from personal time (overwhelmingly the latter, when there's a distinction between the two). I think the feedback from forums, along with playing the game ourselves, is essential to the job. That's a big part of why I'm here, but that is my own decision. Posting can be quite awkward for a dev for a number of reasons. There are things we can't say, e.g. future plans that are (or may be) business sensitive, and things I can't discuss because they were not my decision or in my area of responsibility. Dealing with criticism can also be awkward because we don't control the resources that are available, which is typically what limits us from doing more. For me these limitations are the biggest challenge being here and most of the headaches interacting in the forums come from people who can't separate me, as an individual developer, from NHL as a whole or EA as a company.

Thanks for the feedback, Redshirt.

# 17 speels @ 07/14/10 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bama83


	I can see where you're going, but honestly - that's their job. To sell games. How do you best do this? Give what the consumer wants. I'm not saying people need to treat the devs like animals, but this is what they are PAID TO DO. The truth is - the developers should be thanking us on a daily basis for keeping them employed and doing something they enjoy. It's like giving a hug to your waiter at the local cafe -- after you've paid for your meal and left a hearty tip.

While I do agree with you that it is what they get paid to do, I also believe that there is one thing to remember. To continue with the waiter analogy, as long as you are courteous to a waiter you will normally get good service, but be an *** once and don't leave a tip and see if you don't get a snot sandwich the next time you have that same waiter.

Too many people use the excuse that "they get paid to do it." inorder to make themselves feel better about treating others like garbage. I always look at it like "how would I feel if someone said that to me?" The way I like to be "helped" is a little praise then tell me what I could do to improve.

If the person speaking to me can't think of anything that is good, then hopefully all they say is "You suck!" and they leave me alone. I think OBG is talking about the posters with an "Agenda". They tell the devs there game sucks, but they say it everywhere (many threads) whereas they should let it go at once. I.E. "I do not enjoy your game." end of story, don't post about it again. Not everyone is going to like every game, but just say your piece and let it be.

# 18 Redshirt_EA @ 07/14/10 04:05 PM

If you really want a restaurant analogy chef would be far better comparison than waiter.

# 19 plaidchuck @ 07/15/10 01:11 AM

Well I agree that you should be civil and courteous in EVERYTHING you do, whether it's interactions in real life or a message board like this. At the same time I don't think it's wrong to show a wee bit of frustration(still in a respectful manner) with a certain aspect of a game especially if it has been in multiple iterations of the game. Of course the more constructive the criticism, the better.

I just become annoyed when people do make constructive posts and some other members immediately jump on their case acting like they're simply a troll because they made a criticism or point about the game. Or they have the strange attitude "don't say anything negative because the devs will get mad and never listen to us again"

# 20 onlybygrace @ 07/15/10 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plaidchuck


	Well I agree that you should be civil and courteous in EVERYTHING you do, whether it's interactions in real life or a message board like this. At the same time I don't think it's wrong to show a wee bit of frustration(still in a respectful manner) with a certain aspect of a game especially if it has been in multiple iterations of the game. Of course the more constructive the criticism, the better. I just become annoyed when people do make constructive posts and some other members immediately jump on their case acting like they're simply a troll because they made a criticism or point about the game. Or they have the strange attitude "don't say anything negative because the devs will get mad and never listen to us again"

I'd be the first one to admit that I've been guilty of that, but many posters really have no idea where to draw the line between whining and complaining constructively.

Also, constructive critism looses its constructivity when it is brought up repeatedly and then some.

If someone has a problem:

*Start a thread or find related one.

*Address the problem, explaining specifically what it is and how/why it bothers you.

*Offer some ideas as to how you believe it should be fixed. Many fail on this point. They complain and then proceed to forget that they've left nothing but their complaint for everyone else to figure out. If someone will bother to complain, maybe that same someone should bother to offer some ideas on how a specified problem should be fixed.

*Try not to mention it over and over again. Like 'speels' posted in his 3rd paragraph, its really the 'agenda' posters I was referencing. We've all seen them, they're the guys who'll come around and seem as though they are absolutely hellbent on sounding off until all OSers know just how they feel.

I will explain this in the 2nd edition of Pucking Ridiculous (The OBG Chronicles).

Its 12:50 and time to go to sleep. Peace.

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