News Post

Testing the Water with All-Pro Football 2K8

08:12 PM - December 3, 2008 by RaychelSnr

When it comes to developing games -- like many other long-term projects -- there are set timetables and budgets to work with. Companies typically will analyze projects beforehand and attempt to determine the rates of return on their investments when dealing with multimillion-dollar software creations.

Looking at Take-Two Interactive's All-Pro Football 2K8 title from this capital, budgeting and investing point of view, we can begin to understand the company�s thinking from a business standpoint. After a three-year break, 2K football came out of retirement without an NFL license and decided to go head to head with the football giant and phenomenon known as Madden NFL Football.

Read More - Testing the Water with All-Pro Football 2K8

All-Pro Football 2K8 screenshot gallery - Click to view

Game: All-Pro Football 2K8Reader Score: 8/10 - Vote Now
Platform: PS3 / Xbox 360Votes for game: 57 - View All

Member Comments

# 1 orthostud23 @ 12/03/08 09:14 PM

I think this game didnt get very popular for 3 reasons:

1) No franchise mode. Yes alot of folks play online but there are also alot who like to build and watch a franchise grow to get to that top spot.

2) Lack of customization. it would have been GREAT to be able to completely name EVERY player on your team even if they had generic attributes,

# 2 orthostud23 @ 12/03/08 09:15 PM

sorry only 2 reason

# 3 Mos1ted @ 12/03/08 09:44 PM

This franchise/series has a lot of potential in my opinion. I don't think the EA-NFL agreement is going to end anytime soon (meaning the next 5 or so years), but there is still a market of opportunity for 2K.

The concept for All Pro Football was okay. I think what hurt the game concept wise is while some memorable legends were included, a lot of noticeable legends were missing. Now granted, it takes a lot of time and effort (and money) to approach past athletes individually and get their permission to use their likeness in the game.

I think what brought people to the game (those who bought it) was the 2K engine rather than the concept. If 2K would go with a generic branded game I think it would be more successful. I'm not sure how Midway is doing sales wise with their Blitz: The League series, but think about how much creative freedom they have with that title. And with 2K's reputation for great TV - like presentation, think of what they can do if they went with a concept like Midway did.

About a year ago, I suggested they go with the high school football route. Considering how huge high school football is in some pockets of America, it at least deserves a look. I'm not sure how a high school football game will translate into sales, but that's what marketing and research is for. Get out there and talk to your target market. Ask them what they look for in a football game and what will drive them to a particular football game (licenses aside of course).

# 4 spit_bubble @ 12/03/08 09:44 PM

1. They wasted money on paying legends. They could've just paid one for the cover and likely had the same amount of sales, or close to it.

2. They missed an opportunity by not releasing the first APF on the PS2. The PS2 had (has?) a huge user base. Releasing an APF with full customization and one legend for the cover on the PS2 a year earlier than APF 2K8 came out would've sold a lot more, cost a lot less, helped establish the franchise, and keep 2K Football in people's minds.

Imagine a fully customizable, Barry Sanders APF 2K7 for the PS2, that people would very likely still be playing today... All the while waiting for the next gen version, which could've come out Fall 2009 or 2010, and released to a larger base than what 2K8 had.

Okay yeah, they probably still would've lost money, but not as much.

# 5 burnshroom @ 12/03/08 09:45 PM

Ummm I think what is going on with EA now and the lawsuit regarding retired players played a part in this as well.

It was intimated that there could be DLC featuring more retired players in the game down the line, but I think when (I don't recall specifics right now) the one guy had an under the table deal to take less money for their likenesses and names it became a moot point for 2K to continue down this road.

It was not as profitable for them to put out the same game with simply more features and the same players and expect to continue to make a profit. It would be a patch for 2k8 priced at whatever price point they put out.

Just my 2 cents here.

# 6 Mos1ted @ 12/03/08 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by koshi


	1. They wasted money on paying legends. They could've just paid one for the cover and likely had the same amount of sales, or close to it. 2. They missed an opportunity by not releasing the first APF on the PS2. The PS2 had (has?) a huge user base. Releasing an APF with full customization and one legend for the cover on the PS2 a year earlier than APF 2K8 came out would've sold a lot more, cost a lot less, helped establish the franchise, and keep 2K Football in people's minds. Imagine a fully customizable, Barry Sanders APF 2K7 for the PS2, that people would very likely still be playing today... All the while waiting for the next gen version, which could've come out Fall 2009 or 2010, and released to a larger base than what 2K8 had. Okay yeah, they probably still would've lost money, but not as much.

Going with what he said, I remember playing games growing up such as Joe Montana Football, David Robinson's Supreme Court, Charles Barkley's Shut Up and Jam. Unlicensed games that featured the likeness of whatever player endorsed the game, then fictional players making up the rest.

# 7 bkfount @ 12/03/08 11:02 PM

2k didn't know what they wanted to do with this game.

2k has had a group of rabid supporters that were salivating to buy another 2k football game. The pool of suggestions from these fans had to be Olympic in size. 2k even had some brand value in the genre because of what they had done previously in football and other sports. This game could have been epic.

Instead, they squandered all that by cobbling together a bare bones football game that tip toed around the NFL's exclusive deal with EA. The legends were tacked on to lazily wrap an identity on the game. This was all done much too quickly for a franchise that had no reason to rush onto shelves. Giving it a licensed sport game development cycle with a licensed sport game title of All Pro Football 2k8 was utterly stupid.

# 8 Triggerfish @ 12/04/08 12:00 AM

I really wish the 2K developers would get sold to Sony..screw Take two...yes in all prob if Sony had it it would come out on only PS3 but at least you would see it more often. Why does it have to go head to head with Maddden? They are not going to win that war. I would be curious to see how Blitz does. What is keeping them at Take Two is bball and hockey..unfortunatly take two would never drop them for that reason. Bball and hockey being so good is screwing the football game. argh..frustrated!

# 9 Mos1ted @ 12/04/08 08:46 AM

Yeah, early Maddens used that same strategy. Since it didn't have the NFL or NFLPA license, they just used the city names and colors and insinuated the NFL. 2K could do that today.

They can do like college licensed games and just leave the players correct jersey number and attributes allowing users to edit the names. With 2K share, you can have the entire league named within 4 days of getting the game.

# 10 BigBlue @ 12/04/08 08:55 AM

Sorry, but I'm not buying the 'testing the waters' theory from 2K. They knew that they had a tremendous NFL2K5 engine to work from. So gameplay and features were already there.

All they needed to do was:
Recreate that same game for the next gen consoles (graphics, gameplay, etc)
Strip the game of anything representative of the NFL
Sign a few legends
Give it full customization with roster sharing and online league play and you might not have spent alot of money getting the product on store shelves. I know it's kinda quick and dirty, but it works and $ is saved and, hopefully big sales earned!

Add to all of this the money 2K would have saved by NOT developing and releasing PRIZEFIGHTER and pouring that $ into APF Marketing and it almost becomes a no-brainer. Unfortunately, hindsight is 20/20. But somebody at 2K Sports is making some pretty bad decisions (Prizefighter, MLB Stickball, Ping Pong?). Too much wasted dollars are being sunk into bad ideas instead of the more popular sports brands we know and love. It's not too late to save the football game. But time is wasting!

BigBlue

# 11 asu666 @ 12/04/08 11:55 AM

The lack of a Franchise mode and more depth in the customization tools were the biggest issues. I would love to see a built-in online file sharing system too.

There's really no need to sign all the old pros if they put in better customization options. The community can put them in without missing some of the great ones because their license couldn't be secured. Not to mention the cost savings for the dev. I think that within a week or two of release the game could be on par with Madden's NFL license knowing how dedicated some fans are to getting every detail just right if the dev gives them the tools to do it.

I didn't like the rappers doing ads. I know the idea was to go old school, but it glossed over how amazing the gameplay experience is and that is what 2K should have been pushing. They could have done dozens of ads showing how their game is the King of gameplay.

With the article yesterday wondering if there will even be a follow-up to the excellent NHL 2K9, I am losing faith that we'll see All Pro 2K10 displayed sometime in the next few months. I would think we would have heard some little bit of information leak out if 2K was really working on it.

I played through two full seasons of games at 15 minutes quarters with All Pro 2K8. The gameplay is light years ahead of Madden and NCAA. The graphics are better than people give All Pro credit for because like NHL 2K9 VC didn't put all of the polys on just a few areas. For example, the real players stand on the sidelines and step up to cheer when you break of a long run by them. In Madden they are just stand-ins that repeat a set pattern over-and-over. It's like NHL 09 only having five skaters for each side come out for the skate around, while 2K9 has the real deal with all of them out there at the same time.

I wish there would be a follow-up this year. All Pro could gain some serious momentum if it was fleshed out and Madden continues to fiddle around with the ten things in, five out approach.

# 12 asu666 @ 12/04/08 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7stringking


	Hopefully another 2k football game will release in 2009....If they are smart they will release it around the super bowl in early 2010.

I think a June release would be perfect. It's beyond the baseball launch window, but in the month before NCAA comes out when football fans are jonesing hard for a new experience.

# 13 TDKing @ 12/04/08 02:45 PM

Yeah, and they can call it Backbreaker 2k10.

# 14 allBthere @ 12/04/08 04:42 PM

despite all the 'what killed it was ______'
they should have ____________

etc.

it's a very good game imo. Of course I wish it had a franchise mode, but the reality is that I'm still playing it now. I played a season game last night actually, and I was one who bought the game before it's official street date. I've only had one online game, since I prefere offline. That's an incredible feat imo.

like a poster above said 'if no one plays it, it doesn't matter' which is why we won't get a sequel anytime soon.

I also think you guys give consumers too much credit. I think most people didn't know how customizable the game was, and that it didn't have a franchise mode.

How many more people do you think would have bought it if it had more customization and franchise? 50,000 maybe??

It's the marketing from Take Two which is laking in the sports titles - the only one I've seen a decent presence for was the new nhl game - the guy getting the tatoo (dumb ad). I think the majority of people didn't even know the game existed. Look at what Ubisoft does - in the UFC for the past 2 events, 2/3 of the fighters had farcry2 shots on, and the ufc presented the 'farcry2 instant replay' etc...you have to do stuff like that, and they could have had commercials of guys arguing who the goat was and settling it on the field etc. they was so much they could have done, but they didn't.

Because I don't care what anyone says, the game is very good, I STILL play it! I didn't think I would either - I've probably got over 100 hrs of gameplay, so missing features or not it was well worth the purchase.

How many people over in the madden forum are already done with that game? How many people were done with it before october started?

# 15 StormJH1 @ 12/04/08 04:50 PM

The price point argument is kinda irrelevant b/c this game sold so poorly, people seem to be forgetting that it was readily available for $19.99 about 2 months after release! (Not a good sign)

The lack of depth in this game KILLED it from the get-go. The Legends concept could have worked, but you could tell that they viewed it as little more than a marketing answer to not having a license, and did very little to make the legends play and feel like their real-life counterparts. Steve Young can't even outrun defensive lineman on the bootleg, and what's with Barry Sanders doing the Dirty Bird in the end zone after a touchdown? Heck, if you would've given me randomly generated players and name customization, I could've created Generic Black Guy #7 and re-named him "Barry Sanders," how would that be any worse?

It's sad when Tecmo Bowl: Kickoff DS has a better depth of feature sets than a console port of one of the best football games ever (2k5).

# 16 sixtydashone @ 12/04/08 06:04 PM

Lack of franchise mode is the one and only reason why I did not buy this game. I remember seeing the previews and I was so excited for it to release, then it finally released, and everybody was complaining that it had no franchise mode. Huge disappointment imo.

You can try to analyze all you want on the reason why franchise was not included, but bottom line was people wanted it and it wasn't there.

# 17 dunelly @ 12/04/08 08:29 PM

Focused too much on useless features and gimmicks instead of working on a pure gameplay upgrade.
Franchise? who cares if the gameplay sucks balls

# 18 LBzrule @ 12/04/08 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBlue


	Sorry, but I'm not buying the 'testing the waters' theory from 2K. They knew that they had a tremendous NFL2K5 engine to work from. So gameplay and features were already there. All they needed to do was: Recreate that same game for the next gen consoles (graphics, gameplay, etc) Strip the game of anything representative of the NFL Sign a few legends Give it full customization with roster sharing and online league play and you might not have spent alot of money getting the product on store shelves. I know it's kinda quick and dirty, but it works and $ is saved and, hopefully big sales earned! Add to all of this the money 2K would have saved by NOT developing and releasing PRIZEFIGHTER and pouring that $ into APF Marketing and it almost becomes a no-brainer. Unfortunately, hindsight is 20/20. But somebody at 2K Sports is making some pretty bad decisions (Prizefighter, MLB Stickball, Ping Pong?). Too much wasted dollars are being sunk into bad ideas instead of the more popular sports brands we know and love. It's not too late to save the football game. But time is wasting! BigBlue

2kSports is owned by Take Two and they make many decisions. VC didn't develop Prize Fighter, MLB Stick Ball or Ping Pong so none of that has anything to do with their football game. But now that Kush is gone VC has to pick up the slack on those, which is why you shouldn't expect anything football related anytime soon.

# 19 StormJH1 @ 12/05/08 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcxiv


	THey were never shy on what this game was about from the get to. They always said there was going to be no franchise. Just a season mode and the game was for online play. They were very upfront about the game from the get go. They didnt try to burn anyone. They laid it all out there before the game was released. They also said that this game was for online play and for the hardcore fans that were left out the last few years. WHile they could have did put alot more into the actual game with more features and what not, they just wanted to keep the cost down somewhat and give out a good game of football, IMo they did that. I played the living crap out of it for about 6-7 months. I lasted a whole 10 days with Madden this year. lol

First of all, whatever 2k represented the game to be isn't particularly interesting to me. Just because they might have said up front "Well, we're not going to have any franchise or customization," doesn't excuse the absence of those features in answering the question of "Is this a good game?"

Second, when you say that they omitted these features to "keep the cost down", again, you must be referring to 2k's costs b/c this game retailed for either $49 or $59 right off the bat. For example, if were playing Too Human or 007: Quantum of Solace, I wouldn't like either of those games more after learning that the developer saved all kinds of money in development costs...I still paid $59!

Finally, people keep saying that this was "meant to be an online game". How so? What special features make this MORE of an online game than Madden or NCAA, for example? NCAA '09 has an online dynasty that allows competitive recruiting and a roster sharing feature. Practically EVERY 7th gen sports title can be played online, so how does online play differentiate APF2k8, other than the fact that you happen to like this particular game?

# 20 StormJH1 @ 12/05/08 01:51 PM

If you look at all of the removed features and the fact that the visuals are barely an HD-port of an NFL 2k5 engine, a fair marketing for this strategy would've been as a $15 or $20 XBLA game that essentially operated as a facelift on an XBox original (2k5), but in HD and with all NFL references removed. Heck, maybe even $25, but going that route could've at least suggested why a football gamer should buy this game AND Madden, much the way PS3 users ate up that terrible SOCOM: Confrontation game for $39 on PSN.

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