Madden 09 News Post

Video Game Football Stinks, and No One Seems to Notice

02:55 PM - August 4, 2008 by RaychelSnr

Today at Operation Sports we have a very special guest writer, Todd Zuniga of 1Up fame. Zuniga is writing about a topic which has been heavy on his heart lately, the fact that Video Game Football Stinks, and No One Seems to Notice.

Quote:


	"You�re all suckers. You�ve been waiting around for, what, seven months now, awaiting the next Madden -- or maybe you�re an NCAA guy. Regardless. And you�ll soon celebrate or condemn the tweaks, changes, fixes and faux pas in Madden 09, but you�ll still miss the big picture: American football is a terrible video game sport. And no one seems to notice."

Game: Madden NFL 09Reader Score: 7/10 - Vote Now
Platform: NDS / PS2 / PS3 / PSP / Wii / Xbox 360Votes for game: 88 - View All

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Member Comments

# 1 jkra0512 @ 08/04/08 03:14 PM

I don't like soccer myself, but I wouldn't go as far as saying it sucks. Many people, especially in the NCAA world, believe it's a offensive-type game so the defense is supposed to suck. Well, that is true BUT when have you ever seen all of your DBs wait for the WR to catch the ball to do anything about it?

I rest my case

# 2 BobbyColtrane @ 08/04/08 03:14 PM

the ps2 version of NCAA is great, i'm hoping a few minor things like the sim stats will be improved on madden.

if so, it's never been better for me personally.

# 3 bucksfan07 @ 08/04/08 03:20 PM

totally agree with this article; in Ncaa especially, I find myself just supersimming defense due to how terrible it is

# 4 allBthere @ 08/04/08 03:22 PM

One thing that would make it more intuitive to me that I've wanted for years is to face 'up' on defense. In other words, to flip the camera around so that I'm running 'up' towards defenders. To me this is way more intuitive because you would be acting like you're in the defenders shoes. right means right and left means left.

People have told me that this isn't possible, but they just don't want change until it's thrown in their face and they see that it's better. Most common criticism is 'what about db's on deep balls, i don't want to back peddle, and how will we see the reciever?'

- my anwer is that there are multiple solutions one being like the offence of apf2k8 deep bomb pass - the camera zooms out the higher the ball goes and you can see much more of the feild. Also you should be 'backpeddaling' since you're running backwards towards your own endzone.

How is taking a MLB and pulling DOWN on the LS intuitive at all? It isn't...the whole 'camera stays the same for two completely different types of gameplay' idea sucks to me and has sucked for a very long time. We should at least be able to give it a try and put any camera angle we please in while playing.

# 5 Blazix @ 08/04/08 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSMD410


	Soccer sucks IMO.

soccer sux

# 6 ausar72 @ 08/04/08 03:34 PM

Thought provoking article...

They REALLY do need to show the defense some more love though. Seems like every year they are coming up with more and more innovative controls for the OFFENSE, but the defense...

one thing i think that would make the defensive game more interesting, which I've never seen attempted, would be to switch the camera to behind the defense, while playing defense. Now I know this would only work while playing against the computer or against an online foe, but could you imagine the possibilities that even that one little change could add to the game.

# 7 therockstar2005 @ 08/04/08 03:37 PM

You're a jackass. But I agree with you.

I can't play defense to save my life. The best D I ever played on football was in nfl 2k5, where I basically would run a fantasy draft and take LaVar Arrington and blitz with him every down. I always let the secondary just get run by the computer when a pass is made, cause I know that switching from the D-line/LB to the DB will screw up the play cause it isn't seamless for me. And I have a feeling that's how it is for most people, even if you can play the DB, you probably just pick one to stick with the entire play. I will say that football D is a thinking man's game until the ball is snapped, whereas with soccer, it is always moving. Plus, there is a significant difference (at least as I saw it) between football D and the others sports you mentioned. Aside from moving around, in football every player has something which they are actively doing on defense aside from 'move to this spot' and 'set up for the play' (ala hockey, basketball, baseball, some soccer). Unlike in baseball, there isn't that one guy who has the ball and does something, or the one guy trying to take the ball in basketball. Each of those 11 players is doing something different, making it even more complex on D.

So with that, the issue really is how to fix it. Because of the pacing (within about 6-7 seconds usually a pass is made and the play is essentially set up until it degrades into smear the "kid with the ball") I'm not sure that you'd be able to achieve anything really close to this complete control without slowing the pace way down. Really, I guess the best implementations that could be would be more options to switch up defensive plays before the snap (or just have the 2002 Baltimore Ravens tell Madden how to build it).

However, I will say that just because you don't have the complete control doesn't mean that the game stinks. I think that it would just be really hard to have "complete control" of the D while 11 guys are actively doing something different. You're right, you don't have complete control. I'm just not sure that it necessarily equals 'stinky game.'

# 8 lowlevel @ 08/04/08 03:46 PM

Sure, we notice. We've noticed for a long time now. Unfortunately, as long as consumers and "critics" keep giving game developers a free pass on their broken feature sets, it seems the developers and publishers will have little motivation to change thier thinking.

Really Todd, you've mentioned your distaste for defense on your podcast and even in your recent NCAA review. But then you give EA a swat on the *** and a "Good effort guys, you'll get 'em next year ...", and score them a freaking A-. Broken AI, broken online dynasty, and chronically broken/"unfun" defense, and they still get an "A-".

"No one seems to notice", huh? It seems that includes the "critics" as well.

# 9 yamabushi @ 08/04/08 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowlevel


	Sure, we notice. We've noticed for a long time now. Unfortunately, as long as consumers and "critics" keep giving game developers a free pass on their broken feature sets, it seems the developers and publishers will have little motivation to change thier thinking. Really Todd, you've mentioned your distaste for defense on your podcast and even in your recent NCAA review. But then you give EA a swat on the *** and a "Good effort guys, you'll get 'em next year ...", and score them a freaking A-. Broken AI, broken online dynasty, and chronically broken/"unfun" defense, and they still get an "A-". "No one seems to notice", huh? It seems that includes the "critics" as well.

Ouch. just... ouch.
Welcome to modren game ''journalism'' folks.

hy�poc�ri�sy [hi pokressee]
1. feigned high principles

And so much for the TOS about politics....

Quote:


	Come November we�ll be voting for a new president, and even if NCAA and Madden�s makers vote McCain, hopefully they�ll adopt Obama�s slogan as they go forward with their defensive philosophy. A new way of playing defense is certainly a change I can believe in.

# 10 Niq54 @ 08/04/08 04:30 PM

The two biggest issues in video game football are poor AI, and constantly ineffective Defensive Playbooks Assignments. In video game football as you pointed out the player can only control one player at a time. The player must count on CPU AI to be in the rght place at the right time. This sounds easy enough but quite often human players find their CPU teammates out of position. This can be due to suction blocking or poor pursuit angles. While I understand this can be difficult for game designers to program but the biggest problem comes from the problem with Defensive playbooks/play assignments. For years video game football teams have used the same defensive playbooks. We buy into it if they give us extra formations or name the playbook after our team, Tampa 2, Baltimore D, NE Defensive for example. But the problem is the design of the plays with the playbook. The designers have given us defensive hot routes, but most people use this to fix the play not to create new ones. For instance how many defensive plays have the d-line assigned to the proper gaps? I hate the fact the the NOSE tackle doesnt cover the A gap on a standard Cover 3 play. And do DE's ever attempt to keep contain? Only if you call a QB contain play but then they do don't rush they imply spread out and sit on the line of scrimmage. DE's rarely follow proper pursuit angles. Let me breakdown a typical DE pursuit on a run play; ball snapped, DE rushes to blocker, ballier breaks line of scrimmage to opposite side of field, DE turns around and runs across the field. Does DE go past the line a scrimmage and run behind the line to be wary of the boot counter or reverse BCR??? Nope. Do line backers play inside-out? Nope Do CBs try to keep contain? Nope This is why for years (extremely apparent in NCAA09) the CPU will only run the ball to the outside. How often have you seen the CPU ball carrier run up the middle? Ask yourself these questions. In soccer, basketball, hockey and baseball the all the CPU players have to do is stay in zones or or run with their man. In football defensive is not just reactive players have assignments during the play not just the beginning. Until game designers and programmers establish in play assignments we will continue to see the current "reactive electronic table top" defense that we have played and enjoyed for years.

# 11 JohnDoh @ 08/04/08 04:34 PM

Soccer blows big

# 12 cbc72 @ 08/04/08 04:35 PM

Nice idea for a direction for the article and something to look at.

But I felt the article fizzled out and was shallow.

I don't really think you did a good job of detailing the specific problems with D. It reminded me of your mentioned soccer mom yelling "Champ Bailey sucks," because a receiver just scored a TD by him, while not realizing it was a blown assignment by the safety not picking up on the zone as he handed off the receiver.

I believe you understand more deeply what is going on in these games, but again, I don't really think you said much of anything to support your view.

# 13 quietcool72 @ 08/04/08 05:06 PM

Todd,
..but you gave the NCAA 09 game an "A-" in EGM as the reviewer????

Game of the Month too, if I recall correctly.

Now, I think most of us would say the game deserves nothing better than a C- (or less..until some miracle patching may or may not happen).. but it seems odd that you would score the game so darn high, and turn around with this editorial about how football games suck.

Todd, you have to admit... that's odd...and hurts your cred SUBSTANTIALLY in this article.

# 14 asu666 @ 08/04/08 05:23 PM

I love soccer/football too, but the article seems a bit biased. American football defense can be very rewarding when you crush the QB, up end a receiver coming of the middle, or stop the RB in the backfield for a loss. Crushing the ballcarrier or picking off a pass to run it back are fun skills as well. I think most people never put much into mastering defense. You can switch players in American football video games just as easily as you can in soccer/football games.

# 15 datruth @ 08/04/08 05:26 PM

I somewhat agree but I don't think it has always sucked. It has gotten worse since the move to next gen. I still feel the control is not as responsive as PS2 Madden.

Can't really compare soccer defense to football defense because the game is played totally different. Soccer players transition from playing D to O many times in one game where football players primarily play D only, and rarely touch the ball offensively.

The defensive strategy in soccer changes on the fly, in the middle of the action. As you know changes in football strategy is done when the ball play has ended and changes are made based on down and distance, location on the field, score etc etc.

I don't think it's fair to compare the two but I can understand why you think one is more fun than the other. Me personally, I wish EA brought back the control of PS2 Madden (defense) with 4 to 5 times the animations.

# 16 acarrero @ 08/04/08 05:44 PM

I don't know about you guys, but my defense in NCAA is stout. There's no team and no player I feel that I can't at least contain. I'm tired of people quitting on me because they go for it on an early 4th down and don't make it. We bring it on D!

While I agree that defense is the one side that needs the most attention in football video games based on lack of inovation, lets not get carried away - EA's football games still capture the sport as well as any other sports genre. Soccer is simpler therefore easier to recreate in a video game, but the golley controls himself, and there isn't as much coaching strategy in soccer. In football you have to pick an alignment every snap. The fun is in the coaching/strategy. Maybe it's only fun when you stop the other team or get a turnover, but the same goes for every other video game defense - it's not like I have any more fun in NBA 2K8 playing defense than in NCAA 09.

# 17 DJ @ 08/04/08 05:57 PM

I just don't see the big issue with playing defense in football games. Never had a problem/complaint. I don't see how your soccer argument fits; both sports have 11 guys on the field and you can only control 1 of those players at a time. How is soccer more intuitive than football? You can change DB coverage, LB alignment and DL alignment pre-snap and can now assign individual assignments to the LB and DB. Pretty intuitive to me.

If you're so displeased with defense in NCAA and Madden, how can you score the games so high? That right there severly cripples your argument with any flaws you found in the games.

# 18 Hammerhunker @ 08/04/08 06:07 PM

I have the simplest solution to avoid the problems of this theory; one I have subcribed to for the last 16 plus years of playing video football: I only play offense. I play both team's offense. For me, an offensive junkie, it totally is my way. Friends have called me odd for doing it that way, but oh well. I hate playing defense, and I totally agree with the points made. The points made are probably why I hate playing defense.

# 19 MakaveliLPC @ 08/04/08 06:20 PM

Yup, this guy is a jackass. I do agree with him though.

# 20 Jgainsey @ 08/04/08 06:50 PM

Lol, I love the people who read this article and only reply, "soccer sucks"! Ok...

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