johnnyg713's Blog
To do this we need to talk about controls -
for me the passing game is boring because it doesnt take that much skill. You hit the recievers icon button and the qb throws him the ball. You can have a much simpler system without any icons over the receivers head.
To take a page from just about every other sports game, you move passing to just ONE button (right trigger). Where the qb throws the ball is based on his body position (left stick) and where he is looking (right stick). For rookie difficulties bring back the qb vision to get the hang of the qbs vision. Where you are looking is where the qb is going to throw the ball (this will obv be easier and more forgiving for higher rated qbs, If you have a poor qb, you have to time your throws perfectly. Also for higher rated qbs the quicker and easier it is for them to turn their head and get themselves into the position to throw, but remember the better the receiver you have the better he makes you look).
The trigger is the best option because it is the most pressure sensitive (think of it as taking the page right out of NHL and again arm strength is obv tied to ratings). The longer you hold down the trigger the harder you throw the ball. To finally fix the lob pass and long bombs? Just hold L trigger before you throw and the qb will put air under the ball. This may seem complicated at first but i garuntee will be second nature. A qb usually knows before the play he's going to lob it or go long. L trigger will even make you hesitate the long pass (think of it as calking the arm back which is very realistic). How to dump the ball to the Running back? Hit RB (you have to be facing him of course or else it can be intentional grounding). Under pressure? Hit LB to throw ball away (again make sure your facing sidelines and hold it down long enough so it gets out of bounds, it could potentially be picked off or intentional grounding). Scrambling would b a face button.
Quick list of all possible throws:
Standard throw or Bullet pass - RT (pressure sensitive)
Lob or Hail Mary - LT (puts touch on) then RT (pressure sensitive)
Dump pass - RB
Throw away - LB
Take a step back and look at other EA games like fifa and nhl. Do you guys ever complain about passing being too hard or not being able to pass it to the right guy? No because 99% of the time its user error, the pass wasn't aimed properly or you put too much or too little on it. One example that I can quickly explain is when you are charging up a pass in NHL and you have your man lined up but you pass it too hard and he has a bad "puck handling" rating and he has trouble receiving the pass. This can be implemented the same way and make a lot of sense as opposed to a perfectly thrown ball that the receiver just randomly drops.
Here are some ideas for some risks and rewards for each throw you make. Say you see a receiver coming across the middle but a line backer is there, hold LT before you throw and try and lob it over his head. If you have a poor rated QB you risk throwing a duck. Or you see a wide receiver streaking down the side line and quickly decide to air it out to him, LT will make you lead him but takes more time. However just using RT might cause poor qbs to under throw their receivers resulting in an incomplete pass or getting picked off. This is much more realistic and players won't notice certain AI bugs if they can accept that part of the gameplay was user error.
I think this would make the passing game feel extremely fresh and unique to different qbs and recievers based on their ratings.
How ratings will tie in
What this game needs is route based passing. I know this has been a huge topic on these forums so I won't go into any detail.
What I want to talk about is how to make route based passing relevant and actually mean something in terms of ratings. Pretty simple. The qb has a route passing rating. The higher his rating, the better he places the ball.
Same goes for the receiver, A route running rating (pretty self explanatory) and a "ball awareness" rating. If its a elite reciever, he will know more often than not when the ball is in the air and can sometimes make plays even when he hasn't completed his route. If its a receiver with a lower rating, he will never catch the ball unless his route is complete and he's ready to look for the ball.
Expand on this a little more and you can start having a qb/receiver chemistry rating. If they play together long enough and a receiver becomes a qbs favorite target, then it will boost his ball awareness rating and the qbs throwing rating.
# 2
RUFFNREADY @ Feb 10
JohnnyG, you are man; to bad you dont work for EA sports right now! This is something i hope you thought of before and wrote it somewhere else, as the Dev team probably has their asignments, and well under way on this years version on Madden13. Your idea is fantastic; this would have hyped up Madden 10x fold. Lets keep our fingers crossed that they bring some kind of excitment back (for the hardcore Madden gamer).
Once again, great idea.
Cheers bud.
Once again, great idea.
Cheers bud.
# 3
johnnyg713 @ Feb 10
I want to further explain why I (and i believe other people as well) find the passing game in madden to be frustrating. To do this i have to compare it to baseball video games. When you pitch the ball you have control over they type, location, and speed of the pitch. Those three things are ALWAYS determined by the user. Now to do these successfully you must have skill at all three areas. The quality is determined by how well you place the ball and pitch gesture (ratings of pitcher count too but for the most part its all player input).
Now say you let up a home run, you look back at the pitch and say "okay I messed up the gesture or i put the ball in the wrong spot" You know know as a gamer what you did wrong and accept it as user error instead of saying how horrible the game is and its unplayable. Even though you let up a home run, you still enjoy the experience.
Going back to madden, there is nothing more frustrating than being down by 4, having a receiver wide open in the end zone on 4th down, and you go to throw the ball and watch it sail over his head (Very specific example but I'm sure you've been in a situation where your forced to throw). You just lost the game while having ZERO control over how well that ball is being thrown. How is that fair?
Look at the opposite, your playing with a buddy and you pick the same play but this time you hit the button and deliver a perfectly thrown ball intro triple coverage and score a TD. When this happens I just sit there smiling to myself because i know i did absolutely nothing. How is that rewarding? How is that fun? If i knew that my pass was being determined by how hard im holding down that button and the spot was determined by where I'm actually looking to throw the ball, then i could sit there and feel truly satisfied. That is what makes sports gaming fun.
Now say you let up a home run, you look back at the pitch and say "okay I messed up the gesture or i put the ball in the wrong spot" You know know as a gamer what you did wrong and accept it as user error instead of saying how horrible the game is and its unplayable. Even though you let up a home run, you still enjoy the experience.
Going back to madden, there is nothing more frustrating than being down by 4, having a receiver wide open in the end zone on 4th down, and you go to throw the ball and watch it sail over his head (Very specific example but I'm sure you've been in a situation where your forced to throw). You just lost the game while having ZERO control over how well that ball is being thrown. How is that fair?
Look at the opposite, your playing with a buddy and you pick the same play but this time you hit the button and deliver a perfectly thrown ball intro triple coverage and score a TD. When this happens I just sit there smiling to myself because i know i did absolutely nothing. How is that rewarding? How is that fun? If i knew that my pass was being determined by how hard im holding down that button and the spot was determined by where I'm actually looking to throw the ball, then i could sit there and feel truly satisfied. That is what makes sports gaming fun.
# 4
cbrock24 @ Feb 10
It's fair because the player's clutch rating, with dynamic performance control how accurate the throw is. MLB the Show uses a similar system. It depends on your definition of realism. There are several QB's in the NFL in real life that would overthrow that pass in the situation defined above. Peyton and Brady drill the ball into the receiver.
# 5
Brutal_Package @ Feb 10
@cbrock24: To be fair, I hardly ever see a QB overthrow their wide-receiver in the endzone on a deep pass to the endzone. Particularly at the professional level, this hardly ever happens. Usually the ball is deflected or it's just outside the receiver's range.
I think if we're going to improve the passing game then we need to, by default, improve the receiving. The receivers don't look for the ball when it's thrown to them. They will respond in two ways: they will either continue to be oblivious to the pass or they'll respond as if they have eyes in the back of their head much like the defensive backs. The former is particularly frustrating on offense as it'll either result in the ball hitting them in the side of the helmet or the ball will land just infront of them on a GO-route/streak. The receivers should come off the line and be aware of the situation outside of their route. The receiver streaking down the line should start searching for the ball and reach out and grab it more often. A similar logic should be applied to defensive backs instead of the very gamey, supernatural ability they possess. They also need to make dropped passes a little more realistic. Not many times will a receiver get wrapped up from behind and drop the ball. I expect more dropped passes to result from inexperienced/unskilled players and from frontal/side collisions.
I get that they had to improve the AI's ability to slow the passing game down but the way they went about it was wrong. I could go on for a few more paragraphs about the passing/receiving flaws in this game (defensive players sliding to make interceptions, lack of trajectory) but I'd digress.
@johnny: You have some good ideas and all, but I think if this were ever added to the game it would need to be added as an option instead of a mandatory mechanic. Novices or casual players would have a hard time of passing the ball if they just picked up the game and started playing. The mechanic that 2kSports' MLB series uses is a mechanic that is very deep but unforgiving and unfriendly to a new player. The gesture system they use is more complex than what you're suggesting, but I still think it would create problems.
It's also likely that if they were to implement this that it would need a new game engine that we wouldn't see until (probably) the next generation of consoles come out.
I think if we're going to improve the passing game then we need to, by default, improve the receiving. The receivers don't look for the ball when it's thrown to them. They will respond in two ways: they will either continue to be oblivious to the pass or they'll respond as if they have eyes in the back of their head much like the defensive backs. The former is particularly frustrating on offense as it'll either result in the ball hitting them in the side of the helmet or the ball will land just infront of them on a GO-route/streak. The receivers should come off the line and be aware of the situation outside of their route. The receiver streaking down the line should start searching for the ball and reach out and grab it more often. A similar logic should be applied to defensive backs instead of the very gamey, supernatural ability they possess. They also need to make dropped passes a little more realistic. Not many times will a receiver get wrapped up from behind and drop the ball. I expect more dropped passes to result from inexperienced/unskilled players and from frontal/side collisions.
I get that they had to improve the AI's ability to slow the passing game down but the way they went about it was wrong. I could go on for a few more paragraphs about the passing/receiving flaws in this game (defensive players sliding to make interceptions, lack of trajectory) but I'd digress.
@johnny: You have some good ideas and all, but I think if this were ever added to the game it would need to be added as an option instead of a mandatory mechanic. Novices or casual players would have a hard time of passing the ball if they just picked up the game and started playing. The mechanic that 2kSports' MLB series uses is a mechanic that is very deep but unforgiving and unfriendly to a new player. The gesture system they use is more complex than what you're suggesting, but I still think it would create problems.
It's also likely that if they were to implement this that it would need a new game engine that we wouldn't see until (probably) the next generation of consoles come out.
# 6
johnnyg713 @ Feb 10
with the logic you use I might as well sim the game.. I don't think most people play video games to press a button and wait there to just "see" what happens. I don't play the show but im guessing when a situation like this arrises it makes it harder for the USER to throw a pitch right? Cluch rating is great and would work very well in my example. In clutch situations have it harder for me to aim and mess up my qbs vision when he's beginning to feel the pressure, something along those lines.
# 7
johnnyg713 @ Feb 10
I'm going to clear this up if there is any confusion, my blog is not saying EA needs to focus on this, this and this to make the game feel like football. This blog isn't the typical rant telling EA fix gameplay bugs or add presentation (everyone knows what they are). I'm suggesting EA should focus more on how the game is actually being played. If they tweaked how you actually played the game (like every other sports video game has) I think it would be much more enjoyable.
Here are examples of what the user is actually controlling while playing other sports titles (as RATINGS are tied in).
MLB the show/mlb 2k
I have to pitch the ball (explanation in previous post) then if the ball is hit into play I have to field the ball and throw it to a base to try and get the man out. But to throw it to the base i have the control of how hard im going to throw it and how well that throw is being thrown all because of a simple throw meter. Hitting, I can choose to bunt, hit for power, hit for contract, check swing, or nothing at all. This is all controlled with the RS. I have to aim with the LS which way I want to hit the ball and I'm doing all this as I'm reacting to a pitch coming in in less than a second.
NBA 2k
I'm dribbling down the court and decide I want to get passed a defender, I have to hold LT and with the left stick can do a variety of move to get by that I physically have control over. Then im in the paint and decide to post up, so i hit Y and again have complete control over what moves I will be doing. I don't like what Im seeing so I pass it off to the open guy for a 3 and in order to get a quality shot I must use the shot stick to time the shooters release.
NHL
Again Im comming down the ice, deke a couple guys using the RS and even doing some fancy with LB and RS. I see a guy behind the net so I dump it down the boards either using RT to fire it and aiming down the boards or I like to use RB and slap it down the boards using the RS. I can then find an open guy in the crease with a hard pass or pass it around to a defender to get a shot off from the point. Now I want to take a shot but I have the option to chose from a slap shot or a wrist shot but wait, I see the goalie has the right side of the net open so while I'm choosing what shot I'm going to take, I'm also holding the LS up and to the right to snipe it top right corner.
Fifa
First off, the amount of control this game gives you is almost unparalleled, my little example will not do it any justice. You come down the field controlling your speed in almost 3 different ways, simple move of RS, RT makes you sprint, LT puts the ball right at your feet. From here you have dozens of combinations of moves to choose from or you can position your body to try and protect the ball. You have the option of lob pass, through pass, or standard. All passing is pressure sensitive and very rewarding when you master it. Shooting is pressure sensitive and while you are shooting you must take into account which foot the player is shooting with and where you want to aim your shot.
Madden
I hike the ball. Move in the pocket for 2-3 seconds with the RS to avoid some pressure. I see a guy open down field and hit the button. The great Dynamic Performance (@cbrock) then determines how well the ball is being thrown and if the WR is going to catch it (Oh wait but if i somehow manage to switch over to the WR without ****ing up my route I can hit Y to make the catch). My WR catches the ball and I do maybe a juke left and right with the RS and run to the end zone without even having the sprint button because the game magically determines that for me as well....
You have at least 2ce the amount of control in almost every other game i just listed and you have to make decisions just as fast if not faster than decisions you make in madden. I'm not ripping on madden, I just think it could benefit from making controls more versatile and complex.
Here are examples of what the user is actually controlling while playing other sports titles (as RATINGS are tied in).
MLB the show/mlb 2k
I have to pitch the ball (explanation in previous post) then if the ball is hit into play I have to field the ball and throw it to a base to try and get the man out. But to throw it to the base i have the control of how hard im going to throw it and how well that throw is being thrown all because of a simple throw meter. Hitting, I can choose to bunt, hit for power, hit for contract, check swing, or nothing at all. This is all controlled with the RS. I have to aim with the LS which way I want to hit the ball and I'm doing all this as I'm reacting to a pitch coming in in less than a second.
NBA 2k
I'm dribbling down the court and decide I want to get passed a defender, I have to hold LT and with the left stick can do a variety of move to get by that I physically have control over. Then im in the paint and decide to post up, so i hit Y and again have complete control over what moves I will be doing. I don't like what Im seeing so I pass it off to the open guy for a 3 and in order to get a quality shot I must use the shot stick to time the shooters release.
NHL
Again Im comming down the ice, deke a couple guys using the RS and even doing some fancy with LB and RS. I see a guy behind the net so I dump it down the boards either using RT to fire it and aiming down the boards or I like to use RB and slap it down the boards using the RS. I can then find an open guy in the crease with a hard pass or pass it around to a defender to get a shot off from the point. Now I want to take a shot but I have the option to chose from a slap shot or a wrist shot but wait, I see the goalie has the right side of the net open so while I'm choosing what shot I'm going to take, I'm also holding the LS up and to the right to snipe it top right corner.
Fifa
First off, the amount of control this game gives you is almost unparalleled, my little example will not do it any justice. You come down the field controlling your speed in almost 3 different ways, simple move of RS, RT makes you sprint, LT puts the ball right at your feet. From here you have dozens of combinations of moves to choose from or you can position your body to try and protect the ball. You have the option of lob pass, through pass, or standard. All passing is pressure sensitive and very rewarding when you master it. Shooting is pressure sensitive and while you are shooting you must take into account which foot the player is shooting with and where you want to aim your shot.
Madden
I hike the ball. Move in the pocket for 2-3 seconds with the RS to avoid some pressure. I see a guy open down field and hit the button. The great Dynamic Performance (@cbrock) then determines how well the ball is being thrown and if the WR is going to catch it (Oh wait but if i somehow manage to switch over to the WR without ****ing up my route I can hit Y to make the catch). My WR catches the ball and I do maybe a juke left and right with the RS and run to the end zone without even having the sprint button because the game magically determines that for me as well....
You have at least 2ce the amount of control in almost every other game i just listed and you have to make decisions just as fast if not faster than decisions you make in madden. I'm not ripping on madden, I just think it could benefit from making controls more versatile and complex.
# 8
cbrock24 @ Feb 10
@Brutal_Package: Watch Alex Smith, Tim Tebow, Eli (during regular season games that don't matter) and you'll see the ball sailing out of bounds. Those are the three just off the top of my head
@johnny, some sports are easier to implement the RS and other controls. Football is a complex game. The casual gamer already has issues with everything you have to do on the football field now. You have to understand, maybe 5% of gamers are hardcore sports gamers and visit this site. Of those 5%, half of the people are more than satisfied with Madden's controls and the complexity of sports games right now. Why would game developers spend the money and time developing for 2-3% of consumers?
@johnny, some sports are easier to implement the RS and other controls. Football is a complex game. The casual gamer already has issues with everything you have to do on the football field now. You have to understand, maybe 5% of gamers are hardcore sports gamers and visit this site. Of those 5%, half of the people are more than satisfied with Madden's controls and the complexity of sports games right now. Why would game developers spend the money and time developing for 2-3% of consumers?
# 9
johnnyg713 @ Feb 10
you make a good point, however why has EA spent the last 2 years doing just that with their NBA series? Are right stick controls really going to save their basketball franchise? I guess EA thinks so
# 10
cbrock24 @ Feb 10
FYI, Matthew Stafford is on ESPN right now and said sometimes Calvin Johnson is running down the middle of the field and I miss the throw. He's a top 10 QB.
# 11
johnnyg713 @ Feb 10
Theres no question that bad throws happen. But I play madden so I can play as matt stafford, if he has trouble making those throws then I should have trouble making the throw myself. If i wanna watch him make a bad throw i can just watch him IRL. Me as the player should have some say in wether or not he makes the throw because I'm the one controlling him, just make it harder for me somehow.
# 12
Elgin2311 @ Feb 10
I like the idea and its not complex at all. I would argue that 5% of gamers are hardcore gamers. Although im confused to how the accuracy of the pass is affected by the user?
# 13
Elgin2311 @ Feb 10
What has the world come to when people want passing in a football video game to be easy. Dont overwhelm the "casual gamer" with complex controls because their tiny minds cant comprehend anything other than somthing as simple as the press of a single button. Was that sarcasm? Yes !
# 14
johnnyg713 @ Feb 10
Elgin, to be honest with you I didn't get that far into thinking about it, mainly because the chances of EA putting this in madden seems pretty slim. I have accuracy depend on the QBs ratings. What I propose is you just have control over the basic direction the ball is being thrown and what kind of pass is being thrown plus the strength of the throw.
# 15
johnnyg713 @ Feb 10
2 ideas i can quickly think of though if you take concepts from other games:
First is you have a throw meter under the qb just like the fielding meter in MLB 2k. The higher rated QB the bigger the green zone is and the smaller the red zone. If the qb is under pressure, the meter would charge faster or slower depending on how hurried the QB feels.
Second would be outta NBA 2ks book. Every QB has a different throwing style. You would have to get his throwing motion down and release the ball at the right point. However this would take away from pressure sensitive passing but i could probably live with that.
First is you have a throw meter under the qb just like the fielding meter in MLB 2k. The higher rated QB the bigger the green zone is and the smaller the red zone. If the qb is under pressure, the meter would charge faster or slower depending on how hurried the QB feels.
Second would be outta NBA 2ks book. Every QB has a different throwing style. You would have to get his throwing motion down and release the ball at the right point. However this would take away from pressure sensitive passing but i could probably live with that.
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TOTALLY agree!
I was thinking more along the lines of the right analog stick, flicking it in the direction you want to throw it, but this seems like a well, thoughtout suggestion. Although EA is finishing up NCAA 13 now, hopefully they think about incorporating this into NCAA 14!