jersez's Blog
I'm speaking from my experience with NBA 2k and being in the forums for about five or six years now. A issue that has risen from the recent NBA 2k's have been how easy it is to pick up and play. There is no need to go into practice mode when you can just wiggle your stick(the sick on the controller of course) and get into the lane and dunk. I have to agree with this, of course going into practice mode and learning how the game works and experimenting to finding new combos will give you a slight advantage. But to beat an opponent I don't believe it's necessary anymore. Controls shouldn't be complicated but we should be able to get more rewards for learning the controls.
How online play is now.
A guy can pick the heat, learn their hotspots and learn how to abuse some exploits and their ready for online play. While the guy that goes into practice mode learns his playbook and takes his time to figure the game out, meets up with that heat user and loses, not one play was run by the heat user and all the time that was invested into learning his playbook is for nothing.
Why people cheese?
Cheesers are like zombies, because they continue to spread the virus of cheese throughout the gaming community, a guy that wasn't necessarily a cheeser to begin with but didn't know how to play, goes against a cheeser and he gets destroyed but he learned the exploits along the way and he wants to win, so he is now a cheeser. Cheese is allowed not only because exploits still exist in the game but because the game is too easy to abuse those exploits.
Why Raising the Difficulty will work.
I made a thread a while ago, asking if 2k should reward simulation play and punish cheesing. At the time I didn't know how they would go about doing that. Then I remembered, obviously raise the difficulty level on Online Matches and make it the default setting. I don't expect everyone to agree with this but here is my argument as to why it should be raised to the highest difficulty and simulation sliders.
By raising the difficulty and setting the sliders to "simulation" it will force both users to adjust their strategies, three pointers wouldn't fall as much, it's harder to finish in the paint, you really have to know your players and know how to take good shots. Basically if you have a good basketball IQ and stick skills you can win.
Now "simulation" sliders aren't perfect. It's more frustrating and realistic basketball outcomes don't always happen. I feel like that can be fixed of course with a slider adjustment for 2k14 by the slider guy at 2k. But it would be a much better default slider than the "default" sliders and pro difficulty(2k13 settings).
What a harder difficulty does in human vs human matches, is it reveals the one with skill and knowledge. Will they win every time maybe not but it shouldn't be how it is now, losing for thinking they're playing basketball and using their basketball IQ's. There are guys that can beat most cheesers but for the most part the sim gamers are getting beat.
Even though I was speaking from my experience with NBA 2k, I feel like this basic fix can be applied to all sports games, by making online play harder and the better player should come out victorious not because of their exploits or the team they used but because of they know their fundamentals to that sport. But speaking to 2k again, if you decide not to make the default settings simulation and hall of fame, then at least give us a lobby for that.
Why you can get more enjoyment out of a harder game than an easier one.
I've recently picked up All-Pro Football 2k8, now as someone that hasn't played a NFL 2k game in some times I really had no clue how to play and which buttons did what, on top of that the game was hard as hell, I mean I'm more of a basketball guy so my lack of football knowledge was really obvious in certain situations.
So I was frustrated because I was getting destroyed by the cpu and it wasn't even on the highest difficulty setting(All-Pro). Then, something magical happened, I learned the controls and started to use basic football logic, such as using the run to set up the pass, using my blockers, laying off turbo until I hit the hole, setting up better angles to tackle. Because of the difficulty, I had to learn how to play football, and the game rewarded me for having football a somewhat decent football IQ.
Even though I'm not ready for legend difficulty I still feel like I've actually learned how to play football by picking up a controller and pressing start. That's a true simulation in my opinion, and that's where sports video games should be heading towards, a teaching tool for gamers.
# 2
jersez @ Jul 3
That's understandable, It wouldn't cure all cheese or even stop cheese, it would just make it harder to cheese. I agree that it's up to the devs to fix and make their game realistic. Upping the difficulty won't fix a unbalance game, and I should have clarified that in the post. Thanks for reading.
# 3
quehouston @ Jul 5
Im with you 100% on this.
The only part is, the Casual fanbase outweighs the Sim fanbase. If 2k were to implement changes to go back to the simulation game it was (because its DEFINITELY NOT a basketball simulation anymore), a LOT of people would whine and complain about it being "too hard" because they cant have their way, which is just pathetic.
I just wish 2k would do something, either using the great suggestions that you had, or if not, at least give us lobbies and the user rating system back so that we can filter out the cheesers for a more enjoyable experience.
The only part is, the Casual fanbase outweighs the Sim fanbase. If 2k were to implement changes to go back to the simulation game it was (because its DEFINITELY NOT a basketball simulation anymore), a LOT of people would whine and complain about it being "too hard" because they cant have their way, which is just pathetic.
I just wish 2k would do something, either using the great suggestions that you had, or if not, at least give us lobbies and the user rating system back so that we can filter out the cheesers for a more enjoyable experience.
# 4
jersez @ Jul 5
I agree @quehouston, and that's why online is so bad it's because they've catered to the casual fan with the easy settings, like I said earlier the hall of fame and simulation settings aren't perfect but it's a much harder game, which means it's pure stick skills and IQ. I know they'll complain but that's where lobbies should come in, if they want to do random matches then they should be prepared for a sim gameers *** whooping, but if they just want to cheese they should just go to the casual lobby. I have no idea why lobbies are missing but they have to come back.
# 5
cincy14fan @ Jul 6
While I agree with you on everything I feel like you are missing one key part, or well have one key part wrong of this post. Online is about the casual gamer. Back in the earlier days of online the AI was set up harder since it was mostly sim players online. As online grew they (companies) knew that online match up's were only for the casual gamer. You had tiers for your level, Could unsportsmanlike someone to hurt their rep, etc.
The one thing that changed in most games now (except MLB 2k, and FIFA as far as sports games goes) is that where online leagues come into play. They give you the option to set the sliders, to choose who you want into the league, and basically do everything an online dynasty is suppose to do (sometimes we get some bugs with it, but still is kinda of new).
Honestly I don't even remember the last time I played just an online game in basketball or football. I have enough friends who are sim that when we play our dynasties it is good enough for me and the rivals are there.
As for online for like FIFA and pro clubs the AI is so bad (I love how people talk about how it represents the game, yet the AI on Pro clubs is basically watching 6 year olds play). Most people like cheap thrills, I love it if you play a whole match and the score is 1-0 cause that goal is so rewarding instead of 4-3 games. Or that you run a play in the final seconds to get your three point shooter wide open in the corner to bury the shot. I get all of that in online (wish FIFA and MLB could do this) and which is why I avoid pick up games like the plague cause that is where all your cheesers are at.
The one thing that changed in most games now (except MLB 2k, and FIFA as far as sports games goes) is that where online leagues come into play. They give you the option to set the sliders, to choose who you want into the league, and basically do everything an online dynasty is suppose to do (sometimes we get some bugs with it, but still is kinda of new).
Honestly I don't even remember the last time I played just an online game in basketball or football. I have enough friends who are sim that when we play our dynasties it is good enough for me and the rivals are there.
As for online for like FIFA and pro clubs the AI is so bad (I love how people talk about how it represents the game, yet the AI on Pro clubs is basically watching 6 year olds play). Most people like cheap thrills, I love it if you play a whole match and the score is 1-0 cause that goal is so rewarding instead of 4-3 games. Or that you run a play in the final seconds to get your three point shooter wide open in the corner to bury the shot. I get all of that in online (wish FIFA and MLB could do this) and which is why I avoid pick up games like the plague cause that is where all your cheesers are at.
# 6
jersez @ Jul 6
@5cincy14fan I agree, that online player caters to casual gamers, and It's a good topic to discuss one day, why companies like to make their game more casual friendly. Online leagues are good alternatives, but a lot of sim players may not know about Operation Sports or find guys that can stick to the schedule, you're not wrong and I'm agreeing with you.
# 7
jersez @ Jul 6
@6TheRealHST, thanks for reading man, I appreciate the response from everybody. Lobbies really need to make a return next year for 2k14.
# 8
sactown_13 @ Jul 7
Good read. And I agree about the lobbies. I remember the days of 2k when I could check their reputation, what percentage their quit rate is, and just generally getting to pick who I wanted to play. Do I think lobbies will return?? No, I dont. It pretty much falls back on what this article is all about, cheesing. Users will set up games with their friends and just tank so the other can get the win/stats/etc.
# 9
sactown_13 @ Jul 7
Maybe they could let you choose which type of ranked match you will like to play from the beginning. Would you like to play ranked casual or ranked simulation?
# 10
cincy14fan @ Jul 7
I also think that the term "casual" and "sim" get thrown out too generally. People always can't really define it. We know what cheesers are as they run only one play or use the games exploits to win games.
Yes you are right Jersez. Pick up games are great. They are less time consuming, you don't have to wait for the week to advance, or wait for someone to finish their games, or have everyone online to do the off-season. That is the main difference than online leagues. You can at least have a way to invite friends to just a play in game online if you want.
I know you are talking about meeting new people. As for just the pick up games I think the downfall is actually leaderboards. You take that out (your top 100 player records, most points, goals scored, etc) and I think a lot of that goes away. The top players are always cheesers or find ways to get their ranking so high. I know as gamers we are competitors so we want that validation, but that is where most of the cheeser's come from.
Yes you are right Jersez. Pick up games are great. They are less time consuming, you don't have to wait for the week to advance, or wait for someone to finish their games, or have everyone online to do the off-season. That is the main difference than online leagues. You can at least have a way to invite friends to just a play in game online if you want.
I know you are talking about meeting new people. As for just the pick up games I think the downfall is actually leaderboards. You take that out (your top 100 player records, most points, goals scored, etc) and I think a lot of that goes away. The top players are always cheesers or find ways to get their ranking so high. I know as gamers we are competitors so we want that validation, but that is where most of the cheeser's come from.
# 11
majesty95 @ Jul 7
I agree that it is too easy to cheese and I would like to see some things improve to offset that. However, as others have noted, its about the causal fan.
The developer wants casual fans to be able to pick up the game and have fun. They want them to be able to do that online too. Like you said, if its too hard, eventually they'll quit playing (or buying in the casual gamer's case).
I'm not sure what the solution is. You have to appeal to the general public but you have to keep your hardcore fan base happy too. I think the user levels were a good step and a reputation system like Xbox has is another.
I also think your level and reputation should carry over from year to year. If I was a level 60 gamer in 13, why should I have to start out playing new guys and work my way back up? My level should be the same and my opponents similar from the year before. Our stats and records will reset and we will get a new ranking for the current year but the core features that determine who we play should remain the same.
The developer wants casual fans to be able to pick up the game and have fun. They want them to be able to do that online too. Like you said, if its too hard, eventually they'll quit playing (or buying in the casual gamer's case).
I'm not sure what the solution is. You have to appeal to the general public but you have to keep your hardcore fan base happy too. I think the user levels were a good step and a reputation system like Xbox has is another.
I also think your level and reputation should carry over from year to year. If I was a level 60 gamer in 13, why should I have to start out playing new guys and work my way back up? My level should be the same and my opponents similar from the year before. Our stats and records will reset and we will get a new ranking for the current year but the core features that determine who we play should remain the same.
# 12
jersez @ Jul 7
@cincy14fan Great points, and I don't disagree, I consider casual players just pick up and play type of gamers, and the settings that are the default settings are the casual player's settings. When you first play the game It's Pro difficulty and "default" sliders.
# 13
jersez @ Jul 7
@12majesty95 I don't know if you remember but 2k had a tournament and they disabled a signature skill, I forgot which skill. But the fact that online and gameplay in general is so flawed that they had to actually disable something to bring some balance to the game, was embarrassing to me.
I agree with you about the solution is a better match making system, where we can put in which opponent we would like to face, calculate that with their game finish percentage and rating from previous opponents. Also just bring lobbies back if they don't want to change the way random matches are played now.
Great input from you guys, and I really appreciate you guys taking the time out and reading this.
I agree with you about the solution is a better match making system, where we can put in which opponent we would like to face, calculate that with their game finish percentage and rating from previous opponents. Also just bring lobbies back if they don't want to change the way random matches are played now.
Great input from you guys, and I really appreciate you guys taking the time out and reading this.
# 14
Rdub33 @ Jul 7
Money, cash, loot, dough, cheddar, cheese, bread, chips, coin, mula, bucks, dollars....whatever word you won't to use that explains why the default setting is on a cheese inducing level. I am as sim as they come and I have a winning record online against cheesers. I find it a challenge to take on the dark side with yoda like patience! Jersez....I've played you before and you are good enough to beat the cheesers too. We can't blame 2k for making money. Lobbies would help, but u would still get non sim players who are aggressive and fast enough with the sticks to beat us play callers.
# 15
jersez @ Jul 7
@Rdub33 Oh I'm not complain like I can't beat cheesers I find it challenging and I talk some **** on my end, because they try to exploit their way to a win. The issue I was bringing up is more about online gameplay in general, that it isn't suitable for human vs human gameplay along with the gameplay issues. and I know I've talked about cheesers mostly but I think it would also benefit sim vs sim players as well, if the default settings were switched to the recommend settings. ALl in all it's about stick skills and smarts raising the difficulty allows these basic facts to prosper. I think most sim players can beat most cheesers. I acknowledge I'm not looking for sim always wining and even with the difficulty raised a cheeser may still win, but I believe the higher the difficulty the harder it is to cheese, I just want to see better online play. Thanks for reading man and feel free to message me about playing another game.
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So while I agree with you, I see some issues with making it happen.
With all sports games, besides a "skill' attribute there should always be another factor involved, like an actual foot per sec speed rating, percentages that work too.