Thoughts on UFC 4 as patch cycle ends.

[AggelosP]

The prime icons patch is probably the last patch we will get for UFC 4 and I want to share with you what positive and negative changes the game brought while we wait for UFC 5.

STRIKING:UFC 3's striking was the best striking overhaul we have seen in combat sports no doubt, the vulnerabilty and the risk/reward system it offered really was revolutionary. Looking to expand on it, UFC 4 added the ability to block while moving your head which is a really good idea. However, the striking experience (at least for me) felt much downgraded. Apart from the tracking/whiffing issues the game has, the stamina system feels way too generous. Spamming strikes and going forward seems to be the most effective tactic in this game.
Another extremely bad decision in my opinion is the range reduction for hooks and uppercuts. I get it. Hooks and uppercuts don't have the same range as straights. However, this change has downgraded the striking experience and here's why. If you compare a UFC 3 & 4 fight you will see that, the fighters in UFC 4 are way too close to each other because hooks/uppercuts won't land otherwise. Also, trying to hook someone while your opponent throws a kick (while in boxing range), will likely make your hook miss. This messes up the whole boxing and kicking range management and leaves everything to luck and how the animations will eventually play out. This is also why knees are even more powerful than in UFC 3.
The game feels sped up compared to UFC 3. Having a sped up game while reducing the hook/uppercut range makes boxers with low footwork suffer significantly in this game (and generally "nerfs" boxing) . For example Calvin Kattar. He hasn't good kicks and his footwork stat is not that good. The result? His attacks are almost always out of range and since he doesn't have good kicks, he is very limited to ONLY counter punching. Also, body shots seem harder to get in this game but it could be from the hook/uppercut range reduction. But to close the striking paragraph with something positive, we can now dodge spinning body kicks with footwork only and not side-stepping which adds another reason to switch stances. Also the new controls where you "hold" a button for a different move is a cool addition for me since it has some kind of "feint" in it, and actually has less lag input!

CLINCH:One of the new additions to the game was the clinch overhaul. It feels great but is also very lacking. It is fast, it is dangerous just like real life. The animations look beautiful and lifelike. However, it doesn't play as good as it looks. To begin with, it lacks many positions and you can't really hold someone in it. It feels like it was made so that the clinch returns the fight either back to striking or to the ground quicky. It doesn't really have a strategy or solid mechanics behind it. The first fighter to do something is the winner of the clinch, who 90% of the time is the attacker since he has more options, while the defender is unable to block clinch transitions. Cage clinch is also so limited and the attacker shouldn't get a free pass to back clinch. It's a shame because there are so many good animations like the over/under that look EXACTLY like real life. My suggestions would be: High block should block the single collar strikes and the the transition to single under. Low block should block takedowns and all knees. This way we would see changes more transitions from thai clinch to single collar like Masvidal and vice versa. Overall, the idea behind the clinch system is good and in the right path, it needs to be expananded tho since it lacks so many positions, mechanics, transitions. We want a more risk reward system in the clinch!

TAKEDOWNS:Excellent. The takedown system in UFC 4 is revolutionary. Having to "balance" your fighter during the takedown turns is just so satisfying and feels much better than UFC 3's system.This time you have way more outcomes to a takedown than in UFC 3. If you deny late a takedown you will scramble which just looks awesome. I would love to see this system expanded to clinch takedowns as well! One thing I would love to see changed tho is sprawls. Sprawls are the most common outcome of a failed takedown attempt. However, the only way to get them is pre-denying while going backwards on a double leg. In the game however, the most common is the single under clinch position. My solution to this again? A risk reward system! If you pre-deny a takedown, you get the single under position because you denied perfectly a takedown. If you deny early a turn takedown, you sprawl. If you deny late, you scramble. So this makes a system where the better you defend a takedown, the better position you end up in. Also, the counter takedowns/submissions are way more difficult to get this time in UFC 4 which is fair in my opinion.

GROUND: Almost left unchanged, but made some changes. The first one is that every position, has a GNP position. I like the idea and I also like the new GNP system. Before you burn me alive for saying this hear me out. Do you remember what would happen in UFC 3 after getting knocked down? You had to flick the right analog. Now how stupid does that sound compared to actually being able to defend yourself using head movement and blocking hooks during GNP? Yes of course it sucks we don't have elbows and hammer fists but I prefer being able to defend myself. Also GNP now feels dangerous compared to the "throw one punch every 5 seconds" system we had in UFC 3.It looks much more realistic now. There are some changes that want to make the ground game more fast paced, like the well timed counters and the "higher stamina free transitions" during GNP. You can like them or hate them. I personally like them because they make ground game much faster. However, I don't agree that being postured up on full guard should give you a free transition to get up.

SUBMISSIONS:I don't like the new minigames. It feels like they require less strategy than the old ones. And you can't gradually build your escape like UFC 3's subs. I also don't like how everyone are just as good at every sub. Conor and Ortega are just as good at triangle chokes which is very wrong. I do however like how dangerous rear naked choke is, since, well it is really dangerous in real life. On the other hand, I don't like how easy it is to get to the back sitting position and generally dangerous positions. Finally, give us back submissions counters from the GNP. They looked and felt cool.

CONCLUSION: UFC 4 made some solid changes to improve the game especially on the takedown system. It's a shame tho that striking, something that UFC 3 had almost perfected, got downgraded so much. What we need in UFC 5? A more polished striking system, similar to UFC 3. An expanded clinch system. Some few improvements on the takedown system. A revamped ground game using RPM technology. Generally, the path to a good balanced game is a good risk reward system! What is your opinion on UFC 4?

Peace!

[ragreynolds]

I agree with most of your thoughts here.

I think UFC is easily the best game (gameplay-wise) out of the 4 EA UFC games we've had, but unfortunately, it isn't a big enough improvement from UFC 3 to really recommend it. Despite it being the best of the 4 in terms of gameplay, it's also the game I've played the least - and by a lot. Part of the reason for playing less is definitely down to certain design choices, such as having limits on weight classes for ranked online every hour, or the fact that the CAF system has been completely butchered to the point where I really don't want to use it at all (when in the past it has always been a huge draw of the game for me). There's not much replayability at all.

And as to how gameplay contributes to me playing less? Well, it's a mixture of things. The striking hasn't really changed much to warrant me getting excited about it. The most that really changed was the controls, and I'm not even really sure I like how that turned out. Striking (aside from the controls and lighter leg kicks) is basically a clone of UFC 3, and I already felt pretty worn out and bored of it from that game.

The ground also hasn't changed really except from subs and ground and pound. The sub system is awful, though I want to say it's at least a bit better than what was there before. If we aren't getting transition based subs, then they really need to just copy EA MMA, as that was easily the game with the best sub mini-games (at least, the only enjoyable mini-games). Ground and pound is kinda going in the right direction, but it just feels horrible to use. It feels unresponsive and not very fun. It's frustrating to use. Strikes should feel impactful, and defense should feel responsive. The worst thing a competitive game can do to a player is take away control, and that's exactly what this ground and pound system does. Again, it's a start, and a step in the right direction - but in the current form, I really don't think it was suitable for release. When I turn this game off, usually it's because I've gotten annoyed with this system in a match I just played.

Then there's the clinch. Much like the GNP system, I think it's headed in the right direction and off to a good start. However, it largely feels like a step forward and also backwards at the same time. The system feels great, fluid, and fun at first. But after a few matches, you begin to realise that it's insanely repetitive and it simply lacks a lot of positions and functionality that we had in previous games. A huge part of MMA has essentially been eliminated from UFC 4, as we can no longer establish clinch control and hold people in the clinch. I love how fluid it feels, it's great, but again - much like the GNP system - I do not believe it was in a state that was acceptable for launch.

Finally, there's the new takedown system, and this is the thing that UFC 4 probably does best. I think it's the best addition to the game, and I think it feels great. It's the first time in a EA MMA game that takedowns actually feel good. I like it a lot, and I hope they continue to expand on it.

The biggest issue UFC 4 has is that for every advancement it makes, it also takes a huge step back in some other way. For every new feature we got, we also lost an old one. This simply isn't acceptable IMO.

Cool, we got fighter archetypes, those are great for balancing ranked since we're allowing CAFs on there. No problem. Oh, but you're making archetypes MANDATORY even outside of ranked? We can no longer customise our moves? WTF. In the one game of the series that claims to be all about fighter customisation and personality, we now have the most restrictive CAF system yet. It makes no sense.

Cool, we got a new clinch system and it feels fluid and dynamic. Oh, but we can no longer establish clinch control or get double underhooks.

Cool, we got a new GNP system - that's great to hear after the underwhelming GNP in previous games. Oh, but it feels unresponsive, and the game will auto posture you down after a certain amount of time. Oh, and we can't throw hammer fists or elbows when we could in the previous games.

Cool, we got some new striking animations. Oh, but they also REMOVED some of the old ones. Remember in UFC 2 when we had flying knees to the body? Then suddenly those no longer existed in UFC 3? What's that all about?

For UFC 5, if there's anything I could say that I'd hope the devs would listen to, it would be this: do not remove features, content, or animations. Add anything and everything you want. But stop taking things away. It feels like the game is constantly fighting against itself with each iteration. If past features and content had been kept, we could have a pretty damn good game right now, fleshed out with animations, gameplay, and content in general. Yet for some reason, every game seems to take away almost as much as it adds. I've bought every MMA game basically on release, but with UFC 5, I genuinely don't think I will, especially not if this trend of removing features is going to continue. I'm getting sick and tired of it.

[Haz____]

90% of players online just walk forward with non stop combos. Ranked, Unranked, doesn't matter. 150 strikes a round is not uncommon. Game is a joke. Barely ever play this game anymore. Come back every few weeks after a hype card, feeling excited, just to get annoyed at how lame the player base is, and how lame the game is.


Even high level players like Martial who consider themselves sim players admit you can't actually play sim in this game. You can watch almost any of his recent videos and he'll bring up how you just can't really fight on the back foot in this game, and you just have to "shred people", in his words, to be successful.

[tomitomitomi]

I haven't played UFC 4 in about 6 months so it is possible some of my points are no longer accurate or I may misremember details. I enjoyed UFC 4 but ultimately I lost interest because I found the post patch cycle very lacking. For instance, I think most people would agree that the new clinch system has much more potential than the old system but it was hindered by some baffling choices such as the dom-sub dynamic for neutral positions, the lack of counterplay options and the 50/50 guessing game for things like takedown/pull guard mount.

However, the post-launch patches did not really improve these things but simply made the oppressive elements harder to do (so you couldn't for example spam takedown bailouts into clinch). Yet, clinch heavy playstyles were still despised even if they were executed poorly.

I have praised the series regularly for gradually improving at fighter ratings. The stat gaps between the best and and the rest have typically decreased each game. However, this time I had new issues with the stats updates. While I'm happy that the devs (and DC? GCers?) were more generous about giving good stats to fighters with relatively unproven records but clear capabilities, I also think there was a lot of overbuffing. For instance, I don't think Dustin Poirier should have 4 star leg kicks because he utilized them well for one round.

Similarly, it felt like many fighters were buffed to 5 stars "just because" even though I would argue they didn't deserve it. For instance, Israel Adesanya's bad (by championship standards) ground game gets inflated so he gets his 5 star rating. Similarly, Max Holloway was already arguably the best character in the game at 4.5 stars but he became a 5 star fighter for smacking Calvin Kattar which was a great win but I don't think it really showed anything new about Max.

Generally speaking I thought the striking was improved from 4. For me, the biggest improvement was actually simplifying controls for straight kicks whereas they had some ridiculous 4-5 button inputs in UFC 3. Making straight kicks more reliable input-wise made them more usable which added more interesting dynamics between two competent players. However, I dislike how characters can brush off getting rocked but somehow getting dropped (which could happen IRL for reasons such as poor balance when getting hit) just demolishes your long-term health.

What killed my interest in UFC 4, however, was the new ground and pound system. I've said it before, but I think the base ground game system has a lot going for it but it gets ruined by the series' bad ground and pound systems and 4's is the worst one so far. Yet again, fighters can somehow take numerous shots with no feedback but then the one final strike which drops the health meter to 0 suddenly drops them dead as if they were shot. It has always felt bad and stupid and it still does.

UFC 4's ground and pound is also very disappointing mechanically. The lack of transitions (unless there is a stamina difference) is just a baffling decision that restricts options. The actual ground and pound is once again a guessing game where the defender has little autonomy. While there are some numerical differences between straights and hooks, they feel virtually the same damage wise so there is no tactical decision-making in choosing which strike to throw. Instead, it's about being unpredictable. Yet, I would typically avoid going for ground and pound (especially after knockdowns) because the reward for knockdowns is so high that I'd rather force the opponent to get up with a severe disadvantage due to the knockdown debuff rather than risk getting swept because my opponent guessed right twice and got a game-winning reversal. Ultimately, either the attacker or the defender has a very negative gameplay experience depending on whether the guessing-game GNP lands or gets blocked.

Essentially, there are great discrepancies of player interaction and player expression on feet and on the ground. Grappling easily devolves into stalling for a referee stand-up and playing a simplified version of Simon Says (which is a boring game to begin with) which was off-putting enough for me to stop playing altogether, because there are many games that do not have these gameplay sections I actively avoid for entertainment reasons.

[Granbyroll]

My biggest issue with this game is just how badly it caters to aggression. I get it you don't want people turtling behind block and that you should use head movement of footwork. But the biggest problem is the lack of stiffness for the jab as a defensive counter and lack of parries.

I know that people said they were a huge issue in ufc 2 but what we got when they were removed was a block breaking meta. Especially with the block as weak as it is now. Parries should most definitely be a thing against jabs and straights. They are the main line of defense against the jab in real life. In ufc 2 it cut out alot of spammy play.


Also circling is vastly under powered. Simply circling into a strike annihilate the block especially over time.we saw vs Rodriguez that movement should be stronger in this game. He parried max several times. this is the elephant in the room that can't be ignored forever.

I would like the ea series to draw inspiration from undisputed when it comes to grappling, ground positions, and ground and pound. It was the most balanced and fun ground game of any mma game ever. I truly hope that its grappling and not a new engine is the focus of the next game. I can tolerate the engine. I cant tolerate nothing being added to the ground and the abominable submission system we currently have in place and lack of clinch positions.

[ryangil23]

The clinch system pretty much ruins the entire game if you’re an online player. It’s so open to abuse. It isn’t even realistic either - does anybody really think Ortega wouldn’t just grab Holloway and hip toss him/pull guard/trip/walk him to the cage and take his back over and over again or just knee tf out of him if it was that easy?

[Irish0331]

My thoughts are that 4 was a significant step back from 3.

Striking: striking feels choppy in 4. Someone had used the description of feeling like they are underwater when they throw down, which was very accurate. Why change the striking commands btw? There was nothing wrong with the prompts in 3 and its baffling why they spend time trying to "fix" something that wasn't broken...only to end up making it clunkier than it was in the first place.

Clinch: Absolutely broke the game. Gigantic step backwards. No cage grind? No ability to pummel/fight for position? What the what?!?! 4 is essentially a 2d version of a 3d sport with this god awful clinch. The new exit/entry is great...but your options once you're in the clinch have ALall but completely disappeared.

TD's: The idea of turning td's is great, awesome addition. Too bad the deny window is ridiculously small. I felt like i practically needed to be in a state of perpetual pre-deny. The lack of an official tutorial is pretty piss poor too.

CAF: 22 caf slots, for 11 in game weight classes. Cool, thanks. The new caf customizing system, where you can't choose your own stats and moves was a giant turd of a decision.

Apart from spot on DLC, the game is a mess. It's insane to think this is what the end result of 2 YEARS in between games bropught us. 2 years and a BUNCH of stuff is removed, very little was added and even less was truly improved upon. 150% cash grab. And now we get to start over completely with a new engine for UFC 5...enjoy that sh*t show folks.

[Ka5eL]

Simply disappointed.

Such a great sport, such incredible video game technology, but it's the 4th game by these devs and still feels like an unfinished alpha version of a barely functioning (when it does) game.. And this is AFTER all the patches are done..

Everything is glitchy, input laggy, senseless in terms of damage, stamina or grappling. Brian Hayes said that "some players want sim and some wants arcade gameplay so we went in the middle" but that's BS, not only do *most* want sim, but it's not in the middle! In what way is this randomized system catering to simulation?

The fights lack violence. You play Undisputed 3 and you literally feel bad sometimes when you GnP them till unconciousness, it's bloody, you can hold your opponent down by actually holding on to them realistically, against the cage positions, faces get disfigured.

EA UFC 4 is just such a clunky, barebone experience of what it could/should be. I love this sport so much, I love gaming so much, why can't the game be at least not shockingly bad? I really hope there's some good new developers on the team for UFC 5 🤞🏻