PS5: Contests need TUNING

[Kushmir]

Another gameplay aspect that could sorely benefit from better tech is the Contest mechanic. Re-mapping it to the Right Stick makes it more user-friendly and dynamic, but just as important is giving it new rules. Contesting is in a strange place right now where defenders who aren't even contesting shots get weird AOE bonuses--which is terrible. Embiid is an elite rim protector but he gets out of position here and still affects the shot? Thats bad gameplay.



Keep in mind no one wants a repeat of earlier 2Ks where contesting a shot virtually guaranteed a miss--we want contesting to be skill-based with criteria: 1) separate it from blocks--the two commands should differ a great deal 2) require Good Timing 3) require Good Position 4) require the right personnel, and no defender should make shots miss on a whim unless he's ACTIVELY contesting them. and 5) Risk/Reward - Missing a contest should cause the defender to lunge in the direction they specify...Contests should have a relatively low foul rate, but some contact should be called. I fell for an up/under below, and it should have been whistled:



Bad contest mechanics have made zones much more effective than they should be because each part of the court has a defender capable of bothering shots. Here we catch this guy in a bad rotation and Spencer Dinwiddie? stops Embiid? COME ON:



Middleton never even contests the shot here (he actually misses a steal) but because he's close its considered 81% Contested? YIKES. On another note, contact foul much?



The current level of Contesting has some weird dynamic where going for a block (and missing) ends up being the optimum contest. It empowers the worst kind of cheese. This guy spams steal with McGee allowing Embiid to get behind the defense, but never fear...rim protector extraordinaire Danny Green is here :



Here KCP and Kuz both mistimes their blocks (Howard watches) but instead of a potential 3pt play you get a point-blank miss?



THIS happens often when defenders mistime their blocks in the NBA. Its too rare in NBA 2K.

We can only cross our fingers that Contesting is better designed on the PS5. Giving Rim protectors unbalanced mechanics doesn't improve the game--it only creates loopholes that cheesers will abuse.

[MrWrestling3]

I feel like this might be one of the easier issues to address:

-The AoE bubble needs to be removed.No more players facing the wrong way being able to "contest" shots,or being able to "smother" shot attempts where the shooter is actively using the rim to shield the ball and the defender has no chance at getting in the way because the shooter was standing in some sort of magical "No Go Zone".

-Intimidator badge needs to go. Every guy on the floor being Mutombo regardless of their actual defensive skills, because they max out one badge is just unbalanced.

-Get rid of auto contest.It should be skill based move, not a bailout because someone held down L2 the entire time.

-Aside from Height/Wingspan,positioning and timing have to be the overriding factors.A defender correctly reading the spot and shot timing should be rewarded.Barely getting a hand in the way should be barely rewarded.Shooters correctly reading the contest and choosing a move which avoids it should be rewarded.

[Kushmir]

Quote: Originally Posted by MrWrestling3

Intimidator badge needs to go. Every guy on the floor being Mutombo regardless of their actual defensive skills, because they max out one badge is just unbalanced. -Get rid of auto contest.It should be skill based move, not a bailout because someone held down L2 the entire time.

AMEN on Intimidator...defending the rim with your back turned/without contesting can't be a thing.

Hands Down/Man Down isn't just a catchy phrase--its a basketball truism.

Funny thing is I used to think auto-contest (if you were holding L2) was ok, but in the immortal words of Da Czar "You have an opinion and then all of a sudden gameplay enlightens you." but remapping contesting to the R-Stick is paramount. That's the most responsive, dynamic and intuitive way to contest shots.

[Baebae32]

Keep fighting the good fight Kush. We need more brothers like you in the community. A+ as always man

[stillfeelme]

I think the issue is some of the things that are triggering contest sometimes comes off as more "gamey" badge effect of a real life basketball occurrence.


1. Embiid's contest in the first video should have a chance to be ruled a foul, just looking at the animation how it plays out. He sort of pushes him in the back. The game could be doing one of two things trying to find a way to contest shots you are out of position on to reduce shot success in the paint, or it could be a badge to simulate the offense player being "scared" of the rim protector which lowers the shot percentage by simply being in the head of the shooter. In the end they could be using the contest as a catch all not sure there. So the contest is the result we see of the badge perhaps. Embiid's takeover was activated as well.


2. I do agree that on NextGen systems I expect or hope they can do a better job of programming actual contest by actual positional location and the way the defender actually contest the shot.


3. The KCP and Kuzma mistimed jumps probably should be drawing more fouls. That is the only way to combat spamming the jump contest.


4. I know I commented on this topic before on current gen but I always thought the perimeter contest on jump shots that required you to be up in the face were not really realistic because in real life you have to give the shooter a place to land. So it was not a realistic approach to reflect this in the game. The defender never had to try not to invade the shooter's landing space.



I must admit though the Danny Green contest is a good contest. I see nothing wrong with the actual contest.


The up and under between Draymond and Pascal I also saw nothing wrong with that. Draymond didn't actually jump at the first move. Pascal just couldn't finish his second move because Draymond actually stood in has way.


Here is my thought which you or everybody may not agree. I prefer options to happen depending on the animation.

• I want the ref if there is slight contact on up and under's and the defender mistime his jump to not always call the foul. That is realism to me if the ref's miss the call sometimes. The players can express their frustration over the non-call etc. I can then decide to challenge the call etc. That is the type of game play I want for next gen. That is the type of immersion that will keep you coming back.

[Kushmir]

Quote: Originally Posted by stillfeelme

It could be a badge to simulate the offense player being "scared" of the rim protector which lowers the shot percentage by simply being in the head of the shooter. In the end they could be using the contest as a catch all not sure there. So the contest is the result we see of the badge perhaps. Embiid's takeover was activated as well.

I guess that's kind of my point...Takeover or not, elite rim protector or not, you don't get that stuff passively. Embiid actually has to play defense--even if its just getting his hands up, something. This is why we have episodes of guys forcing misses with their back turned, which is HORRIBLE.

Quote: Originally Posted by stillfeelme

The KCP and Kuzma mistimed jumps probably should be drawing more fouls. That is the only way to combat spamming the jump contest.

We definitely agree there. To me there's a distinct difference between a Contest (trying to bother the shot) and a SHOT BLOCK. Contests foul rate should be relatively low, mistiming shot blocks or going for them with players with low ratings should have a much higher foul outcome.

Quote: Originally Posted by stillfeelme

I know I commented on this topic before on current gen but I always thought the perimeter contest on jump shots that required you to be up in the face were not really realistic because in real life you have to give the shooter a place to land. So it was not a realistic approach to reflect this in the game. The defender never had to try not to invade the shooter's landing space.

Agreed. IMO this is the main reason Contests and shot blocks should be separate--players use triangle (block) because the defender reacts fast/it closes distance.The only way to get animations like these in 2K is to press block...





For instance here's a user pressing block to close the distance towards Stauskas:



The problem is trying to block jumpshots is a really, really bad idea. What i'm saying is the entire Contesting paradigm needs to shift. We should get those animations by pressing the R-Stick towards a shooter. If the shooter is far away it should trigger the running contest. Pressing block should allow shooters to draw fouls like these:





And while not every outcome should be a foul, even when its not whistled the defender's momentum should take them out of the play:





The benefit to Contesting (R-Stick) is that defenders should get a hand up and rarely leave their feet. Like these:

Quote: Originally Posted by stillfeelme

I must admit though the Danny Green contest is a good contest. I see nothing wrong with the actual contest.

Contesting would have been fine--Green tried to block the shot. His success rate trying to block Embiid head-on should be pretty low. Foul outcomes should far outnumber anything else.

Quote: Originally Posted by stillfeelme

The up and under between Draymond and Pascal I also saw nothing wrong with that. Draymond didn't actually jump at the first move. Pascal just couldn't finish his second move because Draymond actually stood in has way.

I can dig it. Keep in mind that's ME defending tho--the Up/Under fooled me and it resulted in pretty blatant contact. Foul outcomes when Contesting should be low (Hands Up should be lowest) but this one's a foul IMO.

[MrWrestling3]

IMO the entire approach to resolving animations should be reworked; I feel like the priority should be "Player Skill+Attributes+Badges" as opposed to the current method which is more like "Badges+Player Skill/Attributes"

I think Kush really nailed it here.RS should be the only way to trigger a contest animation.In my mind I picture those good running contest animations as being a quick contest (i.e. flicking the RS) while moving.

By the same token, RS contesting should NEVER make you leave your feet; that should be reserved for the block button.Pressing block while moving should make you leave your feet and fly in the direction LS is pressed (something we do actually see in NBA games); the result should be based on player momentum and whether or not turbo was used.This should be risky move that is likely to draw a foul.

In all cases,timing needs to matter more or run the risk of taking the player out of the play.No more spamming buttons and RS moves without consequences.

[Kushmir]

Quote: Originally Posted by MrWrestling3

RS should be the only way to trigger a contest animation.In my mind I picture those good running contest animations as being a quick contest (i.e. flicking the RS) while moving.

This. This. This.

Flicking while running is a good, intutitive input for triggering a running contest. In those instances defenders are just running at a guy trying to bother the shot--which is distinctly different from trying to block the shot. IMO there's 1) Hands Up--the lowest quality contest. There's no chance of a foul but it affects shots only slightly:



2) Contesting, which is actively trying to bother the shot. The foul outcomes here are low too but based on Position, Timing and Defender these can really bother shots. Here are two great contests at the basket by Kawhi/Giannis and one by Redick:







Bad timing on Contests should take defenders out of the play. Here are two where the defenders are fooled and their momentum takes them out of the play:





Last is the shot block, which is all-or-nothing. Either you erase the shot or miss the block. Blocks should have high foul outcomes--especially when fooled/in bad position or with a player without the skill-set:





High foul outcomes from bad position would be a good way to punish users who go for every chase down block: