Opinions on improving the Archetype System

[SuperNoVa27]

Dual Archetypes were a welcomed improvement compared to the harsh limitations introduced in 2k17. Some Archetypes mesh together quite effectively yet there are certain aspects that don’t quite make much sense. Having such a system leads to some builds just being pointless in comparison to others. A group of ‘meta’ builds will always materialize but making as many viable builds possible will lead to a better online experience. The strong builds don’t have enough of a trade off, the weak builds are overnerfed and the builds that are in the middle of the pack often have illogical setbacks in statistical areas.



I’m quite sure if you’ve played more than 10 games online you’ve seen how powerful sharpshooters can be. I’ve played nearly 1,000 walk on games, in the 30 or so games I played on a sharp dropping 40 was ridiculously easy, a fraction of the work you have to put in on a different build.

99 Shooting with Off-Dribble numbers that rival Shot Creators on top of powerful Hall of Fame badges is a headache. These guys should be knockdown off the catch of course, but what’s the point of boosting their off dribble? There’s no denying that sharps are limited STATISTICALLY in terms of creating their own offense, but all they need is a screen action or having their defender get caught in traffic and they can do whatever type of crazy shot from deep they want and green it.

You want Curry? Go Sharpshooting/Shot Creator. You want a Boston Ray Allen? That’s what a Pure Sharp should closely mirror.

The Speed W/ Ball and Ball Handling seem to be balanced less logically and more to avoid players speed boosting. A fast player should maintain most of his speed while handling the rock while taking into account a players size. Shot Creators should be Elite ball handlers, how does 2k think they create their shots?

Compare Westbrook, Irving and Curry. Westbrook doesn’t have near the handle of those two but his elite quickness is enough for him to set up his man for his drives. Kyrie is the greatest ball handler of this era, perhaps all time, he’s quick with the ball as well but his handle allow him to get whatever kind of shot he wants. Curry is very similar to Irving in that aspect, doesn’t have the best handle in the league but elite, but he uses his handle with the threat of his knockdown shooting to get better looks.

To mirror these guys in 2k you NEED to have playmaker included but that doesn’t always provide an accurate representation. Brodie fits the bill of a Playmaker mix most out of these three because of his control over OKC’s offense but Kyrie is much more of a Shot Creator than an Elite distributer and Curry should have a better shot than what a Sharpshooting Playmaker would provide.

Slashers definitely get the short end of the stick in terms of speed with ball while Shot Creators aren’t nearly as bad. I feel as though a Slasher should be the fastest without a doubt and shot creators could be a little closer to playmakers.

If I had to make a cut and dry list it’d be something like

- Slasher
-
- Playmaker
- Shot Creator
-
- Defender
- Sharpshooter
- Post Scorer
-
- Rebounder

With combinations meeting in the middle. (balance would favor meeting closer to the lower archetype)

Ball handling should follow a similar path as 2k18’s but shot creators need a boost. Again, they should be much closer to playmakers in that aspect. I’d have it like this:

- Playmaker
- Shot Creator
-
- Post Scorer
-
- Slasher
- Defender / Sharpshooter
-
-
- Rebounder

Putting SCs in the elite echelon of ball handling builds allows for players like Paul George, Melo and KD (his listed height though, dude gotta be a 7 footer) to be recreated. Make the threshold higher for the dribble god crutch that is the momentum crossover if you have to. There’s more than just that move that’s unlocked at 86 and it really does change how players feel.

Shooting is fine if you’re only looking at the numbers but I’m sure everyone has witnessed a build drain threes that shouldn’t have a chance at making those shots. Throw a boost on, get in the corner, learn your release and you’ll hit above 50% with most players in the game.

Now at first glance it would seem like Offense would become overpowered especially with the entire community experiencing some slight PTSD in terms of blow-bys. A system like this would call for way more limitations for purely offensive builds and a much needed buff to defenders.

Just to give some examples I’m going to go through some more real life comparisons.

I view Steph as a Shot Creating Sharpshooter. That’s a straight offense build, a walking bucket, but as great as Curry is on the offensive end he is a huge liability defensively.

I’d say Kyrie is a Pure Shot Creator. He’s no where near a prime time defender but he plays the passing lanes well, gives good effort when he’s locked in.

Last example is John Wall, a pure playmaker. John Wall is a good defender, not top tier, but pretty solid.

If you were to recreate all 3 of these guys in MyCareer they’d be basically the same on D, they all can get rips, they all can get blocks. Most builds have the stats to play D. It reduces the relevance of a lockdown significantly. Just about everyone needs a nerf to their steal attribute. Blocks as well to a lesser degree. I’m fine with keeping Pass Perception and Shot Contest up since those areas are more of an effort thing. Guys should be able to tip a pass they see coming or close out on a shooter.

If I had to rank defending similarly to the last list it’d be something like this.

- Lockdown
-
- Rebounder
-
- Playmaker
- Slasher / Post Scorer
-
- Shot Creator
- Sharpshooter
-

The offensive builds need to be in the lowest rung. Playmakers sit just outside the elite defenders because I view that archetype as one with the highest BBall IQ. Slashers are right behind them due to their inherent athleticism and post scorers are right next to them based off the strength and footwork they should have

A definite rework is needed in just how many builds get defensive badges as well.

2k should considering bringing back badges like Interceptor, Scrapper and Defensive Anchor to give more relevance to Lockdowns and Paint Protecters.

Silver Defensive Stopper should have SOME effect on Gold/HoF Badges. Most of the badges work on percentage boosts so maybe Defensive Stopper should behave by reducing those percentages. Say you have a player with Silver DS closing out on someone with HoF Catch and Shoot. If the percentage boost for Catch and Shoot was a bonus 45% the player with defensive stopper could drop that number by 10-15%

Putting defense in a build shouldn’t annihilate the offensive stats either. I’m fine with Pure Locks, I’d make them a tad better finishers but nothing major. The problem comes with combining them into other Arch’s.

The most sought after ‘build’ in today’s NBA is a 3 and D wing. Guys like Robert Covington, Jaylen Brown, Pat Patterson, Trevor Ariza and plenty others. These guys all have a rating in the low 80s. What would be the issue in giving a Sharpshooting Defender similar stats?

You’d never be able to make a PG or Kawhi unless you get to 99 and even then the numbers don’t end up being that close.




Now I’ve spent most of my time in 2k as a guard/forward so I’m not completely keen on the issues with Bigs but there are a few.

The big man equivalent of a sharp is ridiculous. 7’3 Behemoths knocking down everything from 30ft is a little crazy. Taking into account for the annual animation glitch you’ll have these guys breaking their man off the dribble too. Shooting from deep, sharp or not should scale down in accordance with height.

A max height stretch should cap out between 85-88 AT BEST. No one at that size is shooting at above 50% from DEEP.

Speed was a balance issue for bigs last year. Not the rating in particular but the way the speed threshold made everyone play had dudes bigger than Boban Marjonovic keeping up with guards down the floor.

There wasn’t a big enough trade off for going max height/max weight.

In real life Boban is imposing scoring and on the boards but he is S L O W. The man can’t log any significant minutes because he simply is unable to keep up with quicker bigs, especially floor spacers.

2k needs to mirror that. If you want to be a giant you’re going to really have to play with a squad who can somehow hide you defensively.

Athleticism and Strength need to turn rebounding into more of a fight. I’ve boxed out Bigs with a 6’4 guard and I’ve seen min weight stretch bigs back down a Defending Rebounder. You can try to fight through a box out by pressing L2 but most of the time it’s either too slow to take advantage of or doesn’t do much of anything. If there’s a significant lack of strength between the player and defender it should feel like backing down a wall.

Rebounding should be a battle, if you’re a glass cleaner you should snag most boards if you’re in position but if you’re 7’3 and going up against a quicker athlete he should be able to sky and steal a few. This happens in 18 but it’s less of something you worked for and more from randomly getting slid into position.



The archetype system needs to be set up to mirror and eventually exceed the stars in the NBA. If there are proper checks and balances in play then nothing will be overpowered and nothing will be horribly underpowered to the point of becoming worthless. If someone takes the time to grind to a 95 with a build that matches Curry, then they should definitely play like Curry. If you put in the work on a Dennis Rodman type build then you should be able to take that player online and have success rather than be stifled by 7’3 giants. Plenty of players don’t even touch the online aspect, if you give them dual archetypes let them be elite in both areas to a greater extent than what’s currently in place. Give the online focused players the ability to match up whether it’s through having players on your team to contain your opponent, containing them yourself or trying to outgun them.


I’m positive that there are some areas that I haven’t covered that many of you can provide valuable insight toward. I’ve spent a ridiculous most of my time playing walk on so my observations are going to be geared to my personal experience. It’s highly doubtful that anything in this thread would make it in to 2k19 but it’s great discussion regardless.

[El_Poopador]

I think they need to start from scratch with a lot the ratings, honestly. The real problem is that some ratings don't actually matter much in the grand scheme.

Rebounding, for example, doesn't mean much in the game. If you get locked into a boxout animation, it doesn't really matter what your rebounding attribute is; you're not getting the rebound. A guy with a 50 rebound rating can grab just as many boards as someone with a 99, because the ability to fight for position, which is largely what rebounding is all about, doesn't really exist in the game.

What I wish they would do is separate offline and online attributes, or rather, only impose rating caps for online play. Let a player reach 99 in every attribute when playing offline, and keep the archtype system for online play to prevent overpowered players.

They also need to do away with the selected archtypes. I'd rather have a maximum total attribute rating online than having caps based on a general archtype that limits variety. Say you have 10 attributes to work from (obviously there are way more in the game, but for simplicity's sake), each from 25-99. That's a total of 740 attribute slots to fill. Online, the game could allow you to reach a total of 450 attribute slots, and you could choose how to distribute them. If you want to jack 4 categories up to 99, great, but then you only have 54 points left for the remaining five categories. This would lead to far more variety in player types, and you actually could create a variety of NBA type players.

Of course, this would all be predicated on them making all attributes actually mean something.

[Cavs2016]

I only play offline. I don’t like the attribute caps. I wanna be LeBron James, not Ben Simmons/Jeff Green. I wanna be Michael Jordan, not DeMar DeRozan. I wanna be Kevin Durant, not Khris Middleton.

[Vic_Clancy]

I have had a lot of thoughts on this, but the current thought in my head is that the system is just too rigid. If you're going to be a pure anything (except maybe shot creator) you're giving up too much of everything else. If you're going to be a hybrid, you often have to give up too much of that primary skill. This leads to two things: (1) nobody really being able to make the player they want; (2) ubiquitousness of the same few builds; and (3) not really having to think about/adjust my gameplan (oh, i'm guarding a sharp, i know exactly what he's going to do...instead of having to play the game, and adjust to the actual player)


Therefore, to me, the solution is allow more freedom in crafting the characters and I think they could go about this in a number of ways that would be an improvement over this year.

1. The low hanging fruit is to allow you to put attribute points where you want to put them. If I want the fastest possible shot creator, let me do that at the expense of other stats and higher costs at higher levels. Of course physical stats should be somewhat limited by body choices (no 7'3 center should be running with a 6'2 guard), but not all 6'8 sharpshooters should be running the same speed.

2. Another relatively simple thing, is to allow some freedom in badge choices. My main is a sc/pm point guard, but I don't care about the ankle breaker badge. Allow me to sacrifice HOF ankle breaker for a stronger dimer/defensive stopper badge.

2a. Remove badges and/or better balance the badges. As it is, sharps have 5 great primary badges. Other archetypes aren't so lucky (flashy passer, charge card....really?). Either do away with badges and base everything on attributes. Or find a way to balance them better.

3. Related to idea 1. After a certain point (say, an 85 overall) you break out of the archetype and are free to point your remaining attribute points where you choose. I know this sort of the rumor floating around, but I think it makes sense and mirrors the real NBA. Players in the low 80s an below are more role players. Where above are the starts with more diverse skills.

On to more radical ideas.

4. Let us transition through archetypes. NBA players grow throughout their careers. They work on their games in the off-season, they have mentors, they get stronger. Allow us some freedom to adjust our stats. For example, i build speed, but am finding that i'd actually value more strength, i'd have the ability to pull points out of speed and add them to strength. Perhaps make this a perk of one of the badges (gym rat), or open it after a certain amount of games played (or a certain overall). Of course you can associate some cost with moving points.

5. Assign badges/archetypes organically. If in my gameplay, I drive a alot, assign me slasher. Make the slashing badges easier to obtain and make the costs of getting attributes related to my gameplay cheaper. This will also make the attribute display in park/proam more informative for teammates/opponents.

[Csmooove32]

If i see 99 contested shot or 99 open shot i might lose it lol.

[Vic_Clancy]

I know this is my second post here, but I decided to proffer a more dramatic, overhaul of the system, rather than the tweaks above. It needs refinement, but i actually love this approach.

I think the current system vastly undervalues and misunderstands defense. Therefore, I'd like them to remove defense as an archetype and make it equal to offense. Make it so that players choose both offensive and defensive archetypes.

TL;dr: Make defensive archetypes. There are different types of good defenders, and in the current system you have to handicap your offense too much to be a decent defender.



Before we get to how, let's address why?

There's many reasons. Most obvious, is that in the current system, to be a credible defender, you have to add lockdown to your archetype, which at best, makes you a one dimensional offensive player, but most likely makes you a non-threat offensively (especially if defense is primary). This makes playing a defender unviable for many (including me) because we want to at least be able to have some effect on offense.

However, more importantly, the current system neglects that defense is half of the game, and like offense, there are different flavors of good defenders. Shaq and Steph currently are both great offensive players, but their offensive strengths are vastly different. Similarly, Hakeem Olajuwon and Pat Beverly are both great defensive players, but their defensive strengths are vastly different. More on point, Iverson was great at an aspect of defense. Namely, jumping passing lanes for steals; whereas Gary Payton was a great overall defender.

The current system doesn't not allow for these distinction in the way that it does on offense. There are 5.5 offensive archetypes, and 1.5 defensive (with rebounding being the .5 on both sides) At most, defensive stoppers shoehorns big men into being great on ball defenders and rim protectors, and guards to being on ball and getting steals (if you can get one in this game).

so how do we address it

Simple way, for 2k19 (one can dream):

Break the defender archetype into 4 or 5 different archetypes that are selectable. Off the top of my head: Denier (speciailizes in blocking shots), Thief (steals, obv), commander (like a defensive playmaker), and enforcer (plays physical). They would have their own badges and statistical advantages like the offensive badges.

Of course you'd also need to reduce the penalty to your offensive stats if you have a defensive secondary class. Obviously someone who has two offensive classes should be a better overall offensive player than someone who is split. But having a defensive secondary class shouldn't tank your offensive abilities either.

This would allow players who are primary defenders to really distinguish themselves, while also giving those who want to have some offensive ability the possibility to have some defensive effectiveness

More complex, for future 2ks) :

I would have offense and defense completely separate. That is, you choose your offensive archetype and then choose your defensive archetype. You decide how offensive/defensive your player will be by building his offensive/defensive stats. Of course you'd need a reasonable hard stat cap.

Bottom line

Obviously, none of this works if 2K doesn't figure out the defense on court and make it matter more. I think 2k needs to add more defensive animations and reduce the power of offensive animations.

They would also need to be wary of not swinging too far the other direction and making defense OP. But you know what I mean.

Any thoughts?

[OfficialQbN]

Yeah... don't have an archetype system...


2K13/2K14 Had the best system. Signature skills (badges) that you could handpick and you chose specifically which attributes you wanted to have.

That system allowed for a tremendous amount of variety. Its a shame they went away from it...

[Rockie_Fresh88]

Y’all remember when everyone made 7’ small fowards lol .