How to fix the ground game!

[Find_the_Door]

I feel like I've figured out what's missing in this game grappling wise. These suggestions could be implemented into the existing system we have now and would better differentiate fighters. It'd also be a baseline for what this game really needs which are archetypes.


The following are ratings that every fighter will be rated on. They all counteract one another for balance purposes. Top game and bottom game would be removed in favor of these.


Guard:

How effective an fighters full guard is as far as sweeps, posture control, submissions. Example if an opponent has a poor top game in a fighters guard that's good their meter will slowly fill when trying to posture.


Half Guard:

How effective an fighters half guard is as far as sweeps, posture control, submissions. Example if an opponent has a poor top game in a fighters half guard that's good their meter will slowly fill when trying to posture.


Guard Passing:

Simply how proficient the top fighter is at passing an opponents guard. If they're not great guard passers then they'll struggle to do a straight pass to half guard from a full guard without posturing first.


Offensive grappling:

Affects how proficient both the top and bottom player are at offensive transitions. This rating does not apply to sweeps and applies to transitions outside of the full/half guard.


Defensive grappling:

Affects how proficient both the top and bottom player are at denying transitions (and maintaining their position). This rating does not apply to sweeps and applies to passes outside of the guard.


Top pressure:

This affects how much stamina drain the opponent suffers when postured. This also affects how difficult it is to get swept. Affects speed of postured up transition.


Reversal:

Ability to use momentum to sweep the opponent. A fighter with a high enough rating here will have an easier time securing top position off of well timed denials, and will be able to better execute sweeps.


GnP Power:

Power of ground and pound strikes (move levels should also be added to further differentiate).


GnP accuracy:

How accurate a fighter is with their ground and pound strikes. Not every strike should hit flush and clean.


Of course with this being implemented guard would be a very desirable place to be for some fighters. A pull guard mechanic would be a necessity.

This would also better differentiate fighters to feel more unique within the current confines of the existing system.

It would make it to where a guy like Cormier isn't doing Werdum sweeps off his back by timing a denial, but will be have added bonuses for securing and maintaining top position.

[johnmangala]

Definitely agree on getting more grappling stats.

I think a balance stat would deepen the game mechanics as well. More realistic avenues can be explored as a consequence

[Find_the_Door]

Quote: Originally Posted by johnmangala

Definitely agree on getting more grappling stats. I think a balance stat would deepen the game mechanics as well. More realistic avenues can be explored as a consequence

These would at least differentiate a wrestler from a Jiu-Jitsu practitioner within the context of how the ground game currently functions.

It'd really put more emphasis into the style of character you select.

[Solid_Altair]

I disagree. I don't think this level of granularity would be beneficial for the attributes.

I would like an overhaul for perks, though.

BTW, the moves already do a lot in differentiating wrestling from BJJ. And in general, it's much more common to have BJJ fightrs with high bottom game, than wrestlers.

[Find_the_Door]

Quote: Originally Posted by Solid_Altair

I disagree. I don't think this level of granularity would be beneficial for the attributes. I would like an overhaul for perks, though. BTW, the moves already do a lot in differentiating wrestling from BJJ. And in general, it's much more common to have BJJ fightrs with high bottom game, than wrestlers.

In which respect? It'd further add intricacies to the ground game. Some guys have a good half guard, some guys have a good guard.

Some guys are great top pressure wrestlers and are piss poor off of their back, and have a terrible guard game.

This level of separation is definitely needed to add levels to fighters that currently aren't there. Take Cormier for example, has like an 89 bottom game that's plenty to easily reverse to top position with consistency.

Not only that he has the same kind of reversals a Werdum or Nog does. That's silly.

These attribute categories would not only educate players about the ground game and aspects of it in real life, but it'd also make fighters feel much more unique.

[Solid_Altair]

Quote: Originally Posted by Find_the_Door

In which respect? It'd further add intricacies to the ground game. Some guys have a good half guard, some guys have a good guard. Some guys are great top pressure wrestlers and are piss poor off of their back, and have a terrible guard game. This level of separation is definitely needed to add levels to fighters that currently aren't there. Take Cormier for example, has like an 89 bottom game that's plenty to easily reverse to top position with consistency. Not only that he has the same kind of reversals a Werdum or Nog does. That's silly. These attribute categories would not only educate players about the ground game and aspects of it in real life, but it'd also make fighters feel much more unique.

I think you're downplaying how much separation there currently is. You're mentioning top and bottom, for instance, which is already separated. The wrestling and BJJ moves are very different, even though some fighters have moves from both disciplines. And there are ground perks that further specify things. I'm not a fan of how they're arranged, but they help with differentiation.

What stands out in what you propose is differentiating between FG and HG. I'm ignorant about grappling, but I questio if this separation is really needed. Do yall really llok at some fighter and think in terms of this guy has a great HG, but not FG?

[Find_the_Door]

Quote: Originally Posted by Solid_Altair

I think you're downplaying how much separation there currently is. You're mentioning top and bottom, for instance, which is already separated. The wrestling and BJJ moves are very different, even though some fighters have moves from both disciplines. And there are ground perks that further specify things. I'm not a fan of how they're arranged, but they help with differentiation. What stands out in what you propose is differentiating between FG and HG. I'm ignorant about grappling, but I questio if this separation is really needed. Do yall really llok at some fighter and think in terms of this guy has a great HG, but not FG?

In real life I'll give you two examples with two specific fighters.


Frank Mir - fantastic guard, not the greatest half guard bottom game. Case in point - look at all the submissions Mir has from his guard, but was absolutely neutralized by Brock at UFC 100 in half guard and has always really struggled from their in most of his fights.

Nogueira - great guard (slightly worse than Fabricio's but better than Mir's). Significantly better half guard bottom game than really anyone else in the sport. Nogueira was known for his half guard game and used it to secure a sweep and submit Tim Sylvia to win the interim UFC Heavyweight title at UFC 81.

To answer your question - yes. Some guys may be great passers for example like Werdum, Jacre, Maia, Nogueira, but don't have the top pressure of say a Brock or Cormier.

Where as someone like Brock would be a poorus passer but have incredible top pressure and be very difficult to deal with when he postures up on you and reigns down ground and pound.


There's many facets to someone's top or bottom game that with this ratings system would be illustrated that the current blanket of top and bottom game do not represent.

Frank Mir is another person fighter for example that's not the greatest passer, doesn't have the best top pressure and is half guard deficient but has an incredibly dangerous guard and has lethal submissions from quite a few different positions.


There's levels to all aspects of grappling. This was is just my suggestion as someone that grapples in real life and this would totally make sense IMO to not only separate styles of grappling but furthermore make fighters feel more like themselves.

[Dmart15]

The ground game is awesome. I just need a way to get there a bit better. the only bad positions are back mount and sprawl. the sub fighter can block one pass and then it's his position.

back mount makes me sad as all the sub fighter has to do is wait for a prompt to come up and click up, left or right as the dom fighter punches.

I would like to see strikes added to sprawl and I would like a new animation added for the back mount sub fighter. he should be grabbing an arm and rolling to his half guard, not standing up from the best position in bjj.