Videos: CPU transition defense and ACE have little if any logic

[jxelite2430]

I just sat and watched a portion of 2ktv during a loading screen where Scott Og is bragging about the ACE engine this year and I was confused because, many others including myself in this forum have felt that this is one of the most poorly coded things in 2k17 pre-patch 1.05. Not fully blaming OG or Czar because I respect him and Czars bball IQ but as a group the engineers/OG and Czar have been a disappointment in their ability to replicate realistic CPU IQ that I've seen in years past.

The transition defense does not treat players individually or based on their skills like they did in 2k16. In 2k16 on the high difficulties, players would swarm on help defense when I cranked the CPU help defense and CPU Def awareness up past 65. This year I have CPU help defense at 90 and Def awareness at 100 against CPU HOF ACE and this is what I get this year...

* I was replaying games from Sunday so it's Warriors vs Suns


Watch how P.J Tuckers first instinct is to run to the paint, the CPU constantly runs to the paint and has shows no logic on the persons skillset they are supposed to be guarding but rather their mindset "run to the paint because that's what Czar/engineers told me to do" instead of being coded to recognize how dangerous of a shooter is wide open on perimeter



Again Devin Booker is told by the coding to run to the paint instead of to recognize that he has one of the greatest shooters of all time wide open and then to not even close out. @00:23 and 00:25 you can see CPU help defense is at 90 and CPU def awareness at 100.




Most dangerous shooter of all time left wide open because coding/non existent CPU ACE logic tells defender to just run to pain no matter who they are playing against

• Don't tell me "this is because your playing with the Warriors so it's hard to defend". The CPU does with with every team I play with and if anything playing with Warriors should make them jump out even harder to the 3 point line in transition.

• Some will say it's because you have help defense all the way at 90 so they are over helping in the paint. That would be a wrong assumption because the only reason I cranked CPU help defense to 90 was to try and combat this problem which I was having on the default SS/ HOF settings

Bonus Vids of intuitive

Spoiler

Double Team Simulator with no help/rotation logic

CPU ACE that OG bragged about on the 2ktv segment during loading screens


Many teams double curry off pick n roll in real life but there is always help defense swarming behind the pick n roll double team because defenders know they are in a 4 on 3 situation. 2k16 would do that but 2k17 not at all



Sliders have no effect on CPU IQ because the problem is buried deeper in the coding which the sliders don't seem to effect this year, so for now I'm stuck playing a game where the highest difficulties and slider adjustments still make the CPU have Jr. High level bball IQ especially defensively. I'm not being unreasonable or trying to pick on 2k17 because it does many things great (like how CPU ball handler attacks pick n rolls this year) I just want the High IQ CPU back that I used to play against in 2k16 and other previous editions of 2k.

[BegBy]

Quote:

Sliders have no effect on CPU IQ because the problem is buried deeper in the coding which the sliders don't seem to effect this year, so for now I'm stuck playing a game where the highest difficulties and slider adjustments still make the CPU have Jr. High level bball IQ especially defensively.

That's an insult to most middle school kids, sir.

[Impetuous65]

I don't think this is a case of bad AI and more of a design flaw. Da_Czar stated the Offensive Player is by default looking for the 3 now more than ever based on NBA TRENDS, and I think his point is the modernization of NBA Basketball. The problem is Scott OG Defensive design is to have a perimeter player leak out early on those shots resulting in a perimeter player bieng a "rim runnner" and running to the rim is his primary focus when he's getting back. I just think Scott's fastbreak Defense philosphy is not on the same page as Da_Czar's offensive fastbreak philosphy.

I think this is a case of running to guard a space instead of a man, is a single focus of the player whose back is turned the whole time, which leaves his awareness level unaware. They need to change the Rim Runner to turn around if the basket isn't being threatened jut prior to the "NAIL", at least he can make a somewhat of a contested shot.

Not Bad AI, Bad Design, the AI is program to do just what they are doing, it's just a 2016 offensive fastbreak philosophy versus a 1995 Defensive fastbreak philosophy. Scott is going to have to add some layers to his defense.

[jxelite2430]

Quote: Originally Posted by Impetuous65

I don't think this is a case of bad AI and more of a design flaw. Da_Czar stated the Offensive Player is by default looking for the 3 now more than ever based on NBA TRENDS, and I think his point is the modernization of NBA Basketball. The problem is Scott OG Defensive design is to have a perimeter player leak out early on those shots resulting in a perimeter player bieng a "rim runnner" and running to the rim is his primary focus when he's getting back. I just think Scott's fastbreak Defense philosphy is not on the same page as Da_Czar's offensive fastbreak philosphy. I think this is a case of running to guard a space instead of a man, is a single focus of the player whose back is turned the whole time, which leaves his awareness level unaware. They need to change the Rim Runner to turn around if the basket isn't being threatened jut prior to the "NAIL", at least he can make a somewhat of a contested shot. Not Bad AI, Bad Design, the AI is program to do just what they are doing, it's just a 2016 offensive fastbreak philosophy versus a 1995 Defensive fastbreak philosophy. Scott is going to have to add some layers to his defense.

When I see the CPu DEF doing the same things even when I crank up the CPu DEF awareness to 100 and the help D up to 90 it shows how little effect the sliders have on CPu behavior. 2k16 and before I remember how much of an adjustment you'd have to make when you turned the CPu DEf awareness or help defense strength up past 65. This year it doesn't seem to play much role

[LorenzoDC]

Transition is maybe not the best way to demonstrate the whole spectrum of AI failure in the game, because in transition, the game routinely ignores ratings and physics and IQ across the board. That's a problem in and of itself, but the player ratings and AI are more active in half court.

Now, half court defense is also a hot mess with the way rotations work (or don't) and how frequently immune they are to management or correction by user settings. ACE on? Please, that's a formula to be COOKED by your teammates' defense.

And of course we STILL have no explanations of how the in game defensive adjustments actually work and interact with defensive settings in the pause menu. It's insane they would even bother to put all this stuff in the game and not explain it, unless of course they know it's all broken so why try to explain it (quite possible, actually).

There's so much not working with AI and defense in this game pre patch 5 that it really is not fun to play. They promised and marketed user control this year and yet we have neither control on the stick input level consistently (animations and nerfs) nor on the strategic game management level (defensive settings and adjustments).

This is why I stopped playing almost 2 weeks ago. We'll see if I come back post patch, though I have still tried to answer questions in the freelance wiki to help people who still play and enjoy the game.

[jxelite2430]

Quote: Originally Posted by LorenzoDC

Transition is maybe not the best way to demonstrate the whole spectrum of AI failure in the game, because in transition, the game routinely ignores ratings and physics and IQ across the board. That's a problem in and of itself, but the player ratings and AI are more active in half court. Now, half court defense is also a hot mess with the way rotations work (or don't) and how frequently immune they are to management or correction by user settings. ACE on? Please, that's a formula to be COOKED by your teammates' defense. And of course we STILL have no explanations of how the in game defensive adjustments actually work and interact with defensive settings in the pause menu. It's insane they would even bother to put all this stuff in the game and not explain it, unless of course they know it's all broken so why try to explain it (quite possible, actually). There's so much not working with AI and defense in this game pre patch 5 that it really is not fun to play. They promised and marketed user control this year and yet we have neither control on the stick input level consistently (animations and nerfs) or on the strategic game management level (defensive settings and adjustments). This is why I stopped playing almost 2 weeks ago. We'll see if I come back post patch, though I have still tried to answer questions in the freelance wiki to help people who still play and enjoy the game.

Last year I remember teams sprinting out to curry or klay when I'd play with warriors in transition, it's something wrong that's not being detected that was being detected in years past.

It's just funny how when I see a 2ktv segment during load screen where OG is bragging about the ACE then a few minutes later in game I had to keep running to pause menu because my ACE was telling my center to play Omer Asik tight on the perimeter and deny ball because he had gotten hot from a few put backs in the paint, but not recognizing Asik not only hasn't hit a 3 or jump shot all game but will never take a shot from out there anyway... I would take ACE off but there are too many adjustments to dig through and too many clanky menus for me to want to set up my own settings for every single aspect every time I boot up a game.

[fluent2332]

Too many options/making things too complex could actually be bad in the long run. 2K may be finding this out the hard way this year.

Watching Chris Smoove play the game and there is some really poor AI at times. I think I will wait for more patches or just continue to play 2K16 for awhile.

[Dione2014]

Quote: Originally Posted by LorenzoDC

Transition is maybe not the best way to demonstrate the whole spectrum of AI failure in the game, because in transition, the game routinely ignores ratings and physics and IQ across the board. That's a problem in and of itself, but the player ratings and AI are more active in half court. Now, half court defense is also a hot mess with the way rotations work (or don't) and how frequently immune they are to management or correction by user settings. ACE on? Please, that's a formula to be COOKED by your teammates' defense. And of course we STILL have no explanations of how the in game defensive adjustments actually work and interact with defensive settings in the pause menu. It's insane they would even bother to put all this stuff in the game and not explain it, unless of course they know it's all broken so why try to explain it (quite possible, actually). There's so much not working with AI and defense in this game pre patch 5 that it really is not fun to play. They promised and marketed user control this year and yet we have neither control on the stick input level consistently (animations and nerfs) or on the strategic game management level (defensive settings and adjustments). This is why I stopped playing almost 2 weeks ago. We'll see if I come back post patch, though I have still tried to answer questions in the freelance wiki to help people who still play and enjoy the game.

I'll be honest with you brotha. If patch 1.05 doesn't fix this game i Simply can not deal with the game anymore. You were 100 percent correct for putting the game down. It's barely playable in the state it is now. It's literately giving me headaches.