Transition/GM INTERRUPTING by Strike mechanics in Clinch and Ground?

[SUGATA]

This them is very unclear for me, and it is very long and difficult to reveal by testing because of many factors which can take its role. Also this them is very unclear in its final state because it was changed.
So, lets clear it 100%.

LEGEND:
Interrupting = crushing, stops the move and causes damage.
Grapple move (GM) - any move with Transition meter (TM).
I think crushing logic is the same for ENY GM, never mind Transition or Submission attempt.

CLINCH:

In all Clinch positions:
- Punches - does not crush at all
- Kicks, Knees - crush when strike is landed (hit) during his his TM (denial window).

In all Cage Clinch positions:
- the same
- except one: Cage SC - any strike (even Punch) interrupts opponent's GM.

But sometimes strike does not crush, because i dont have SA over the opponent.

Question #1 - What is the factors to interrupt opponents' GM in Clinch?


GROUND:

From GPD's Dynamic grappling guide:

[While submissive fighter’s Stamina is < 80% and the dominant fighter’s Stamina is > 30%, from Dominant position (dom MT, dom FM Posture up, etc)] Strike - will interrupt any GM attempt by the opponent with a special Mid Transition Hit Reaction (MTHR).

But then GPD wrote another here:
http://www.operationsports.com/forum...d-changes.html
if the SUB fighter had more that 75% stamina, his transition attempt wouldn't be blocked by a strike


Full Mount Postured Up

When in full mount postured up, the escapes to half guard will always be interrupted by a GnP strike by the DOM fighter, if the strike is input during the regular denial window.

The roll to back mount will be interrupted by a strike if the strike is throw from the same side hand the SUB is rolling to, and is input in the denial window.

The posture break will follow the same logic as in the beta, so it will be immune to strike interruption if the SUB has stamina greater than 75%.

The posture break will give the SUB a temporary grapple advantage as the enter mount postured down.

Backmount

The SUB transitions to half guard are always interrupted by a strike to the same side as the escape attempt, if input during the denial window.

Back Side Mount

The SUB transition to guard is always interrupted by a hammer fist, if the strike is input in the denial window.

Back mount flat and Back Mount Flat Up

The SUB transitions to half guard are always interrupted by a strike to the same side as the escape attempt, if input during the denial window.

Stacked Guard

The SUB transition cannot start if the strike on the opposite side is already being thrown

The SUB sweep to guard cannot start if any strike is being thrown.

This fixes the problem where it was impossible to land any strikes in stack
because all transitions interrupted strikes.




I've updated the first post with some thoughts which are based on some practice but mainly on GPD's posts.

STRIKING in CLINCH/GROUND:
1) Strike SPEED depends on:
- my Stamina
- not depends on my fighter’s attributes (the same Strike speed for all over all divisions/weights)
- not depends on my striking limb’s Health
1) Total Strike DAMAGE depends on:
- both fighter’s attributes (“Clinch power” in Clinch, “Ground and Pound” in Ground)
- my Stamina (more Stamina – more damage & FBHR)
- opponent’s Stamina (less Stamina – more damage & FBHR)
- not depends on my striking limb’s Health
- final Total Strike damage NOT depends also on additional Damage multipliers from: 1. Combo multiplier (CM) 2. Counter window (CW) 3. Momentum - physics driven damage with the right timing (when opponent is moving toward my strike) – because in Clinch/Ground does NOT exist 1, 2, 3.
> The best conditions for my Strike is [when I have SA over the opponent – the more Stamina difference/advantage amount the better].

1) STRIKING CONTROLS:
(may holding)L1 + strike - Elbow
(may holding)Lup + strike - Hummer fist
(may holding)Ldown + strike - Hook

2) STRIKE CRUSHING GM:
[While SUB Stamina is < 75% and DOM Stamina is > 30%, from Dominant position (dom MT, dom FM Posture up, etc)] Strike - will interrupt any GM attempt by the opponent with a special Mid Transition Hit Reaction (MTHR).
[When SUB fighter Stamina >75% or DOM fighter Stamina is <30%] SUB fighter begins his GM (w/o risk of DOM strike crushing).
[When SUB fighter Stamina <75% + DOM fighter Stamina is >30%] DOM fighter perform Strikes (for crushing SUB fighter’s GM).
During my Strike I am in GDA - so be aware of your Stamina and always consider re-establishing control [before my Strikes].
IN CLINCH:
Dominant MT Knee to head/Body – intercept opponent’s GM if landed during filled TM; may not intercept, depends major on SA (changing intercepting window of filled TM).
In ALL Clinch positions:
- Punches - does not crush at all
- Kicks, Knees - crush when strike is landed (hit) during his TM (denial window).
In ALL Cage Clinch positions:
- the same
- except one: Cage SC - any strike (even Punch) interrupts opponent's GM.
In Clinch and Cage Clinch – use Punches (for dmg), Kicks/Knees (for interrupts and dmg).
In Cage SC – use Punches (for dmg and interrupts).

IN GROUND:
1. FM Postured up – SUB transition to sub HG:
[SUB <75%, DOM >30%, during Denial window] DOM Strike crush SUB GM
In Postured FM: SUB fighter starts his GM only after opponent’s Strike start; DOM fighter start his Strike just after SUB fighter starts his GM.
2. FM Postured up – SUB transition to FM not postured up (break Posture):
[SUB <75%] DOM Strike crush SUB GM
[SUB > 75% and DOM no matter] DOM Strike will NOT crush SUB transition to Posture down (and gives GA as break Posture up).
3. FM Postured up – SUB transition to sub Back Mount:
[SUB <75%, DOM > 30%, during Denial window, Strike the same side of rolling to] DOM Strike crush SUB GM
4. Back Mount (BM) – SUB transition to sub HG:
[SUB <75% or DOM>30%, during Denial window, Strike the same side] DOM Strike crush SUB GM.
5. Back Side (BS) – SUB transition to sub FG:
[SUB <75% or DOM>30%, during Denial window] DOM Hummer Fist ONLY crush SUB GM.

Posture up strike – (any Posture up strike) intercept opponent’s GM if landed during filling TM:
- in dom FM: may not intercept, depends minor on SA (changing intercepting window of filled TM)
- in dom HG: may not intercept, depends on SA (changing intercepting window of filled TM)
In dom FG: may not intercept, depends major on SA (changing intercepting window of filled TM)
In more dominant Posture up position: Strike intercepting is less depending on Stamina differences (SA) between 2 fighters (but for ex in dom FM with large Stamina disadvantage strike will not intercept opponent’s GM).
In more dominant Posture up position – use more/often any Posture up strikes (for intercepting opponent’s GM), but do not drop Stamina too low (0-30%).



VS STRIKE CRUSH GM:
Block his Strike > immediately perform GM (his Strike will not crush my GM).


1) In Clinch/Ground striking does NOT exist: Combo multiplier (CM), Counter window, Physics driven damage (i.e. momentum, when opponent is moving toward my strike).
(Example: Standing (Stand up) hook, and hook in Single Collar land about the same amount of damage. But Standing hook can be buffed by being thrown in a combo (for CM), or as a counter, or by physics damage with the right timing. None of those conditions & damage bonuses exist in the Clinch/Ground).
2) Reasons to switch Left-Right strikes in Clinch/Ground:
- mix ups to avoid Arm traps in Posture up
- target specific side to damage specific arm during opponent’s Blocking (to break Block sooner)
> Switch/mixing up Left-Right Strikes in Clinch/Ground for: avoid Arm trap in Posture up, and to strike the most damaged opponent’s Hand to break his Block sooner.
3) GnP strike speed - is determined by Stamina only, not attributes!

In Posture up use:
1. Hooks > Hammer fists – to weaken his Block quickly
2. Straights – (fastest GnP strike, but weaker) use when Block is weakened to evade Arm traps.
In Posture up do NOT use:
1. Elbows – (slow and weak) do not use in any position.


Crushing Stand up TAKEDOWN attempt:
[If strike landed on initial phase of TD’s startup] ALL Strikes – will crush TD attempt.
Exception: Jab, Straight, Leg kick – can not interrupt TD by default, but If they land in a way that would naturally cause a Stun (i.e. charged by CM at the end of a Combo), they can still do it.
[Just TD begins] Uppercut, Knee or other fast enough Strikes (but NOT Jab, Straight, Leg kick).
[VS not charged by CM, CW basic Strikes - Jab, Straight, Leg kick] attempt TD.
[VS others Strikes – only when I have enough Striking advantage (his Strike will not hit on my initial wind up TD phase) when I get CW after successful Dodge/Side step, Sway, Parry, FBHR] attempt TD.

Crushing Stand up CLINCH attempt:
[If strike landed during any phase of Clinch attempt] ALL Strikes – will crush Clinch initiation attempt.
No exceptions.
[Just Clinch attempt begins] Jab, Straight, Leg kick or other fast enough Strikes.



#2 - Strike crushes GM if his input was during its TM (denial window) or his Hit was landed?

#3 - SUB has <30% Stamina and DOM has > 80% Stamina OR only SUB has < 75% stamina - and then Strike crushes... what is right?

#4 - Back Side Mount. The SUB transition to guard is always interrupted by a hammer fist, if the strike is input in the denial window.
Only by Hummer fist but not by other strike types?

#5 (main) - What about Strike interrupting GMs for OTHER Ground positions? What rules/conditions for this?

[SUGATA]

Am i the only one who dont know such things (question #1-5) ? =)
Then please teach me.

[SUGATA]

After some testing - but may be i am wrong:
#2 - input, not hit
#3-4 - different for different positions.
Examples:
1. FM Postured up – SUB transition to sub HG:
[SUB <75%, DOM >30%, during Denial window] DOM Strike crush SUB GM
In Postured FM: SUB fighter starts his GM only after opponent’s Strike start; DOM fighter start his Strike just after SUB fighter starts his GM.
2. FM Postured up – SUB transition to sub Back Mount:
[SUB <75%, DOM > 30%, during Denial window, Strike the same side of rolling to] DOM Strike crush SUB GM
3. FM Postured up – SUB transition to FM not postured up (break Posture):
[SUB <75%] DOM Strike crush SUB GM
[SUB > 75% and DOM no matter] DOM Strike will NOT crush SUB transition to Posture down (and gives GA as break Posture up).
4. Back Mount (BM) – SUB transition to sub HG:
[SUB <75% or DOM>30%, during Denial window, Strike the same side] DOM Strike crush SUB GM.
5. Back Side (BS) – SUB transition to sub FG:
[SUB <75% or DOM>30%, during Denial window] DOM Hummer Fist ONLY crush SUB GM.

[SUGATA]

I have a question:

GPD said here:
http://www.operationsports.com/forum...d-changes.html

Quote:

-we fixed it so strikes now follow the stamina priority system like transitions. This means in positions like crucifix, side saddle and stacked guard, where you cannot strike once a transition starts, you can first deny, which will give you priority to throw a strike after the denial animation finishes if you queued up a strike and your opponent queued up a transition.

But this still not works!

Side saddle, Crucifix, Stack guard - DOM successfully deny SUB transition, but then he still can not to launch his Strike because of 2nd SUB transition which interrupts his strike. So transition spam by SUB in this positions does not allow to use them...

Or i am doing something wrong?

[Bigg Cee]

You need a friend to share all of this data with. Know one cares anymore.


Also do you play this game online or offline? Just wondering if you even play this game or just test game mechanics out?

[thelasthurtknee]

Awesome stuff suguta, your post always make me better.

Big cee, rough day?

[Bigg Cee]

Quote: Originally Posted by thelasthurtknee

Awesome stuff suguta, your post always make me better. Big cee, rough day?

not really, lol

actually I have been roaming around OS like a mad man posting everywere. Today for the most part I've been hanging out in the madden forums. Fun!

[SUGATA]

I've updated the first post with some thoughts which are based on some practice but mainly on GPD's posts.

STRIKING in CLINCH/GROUND:
1) Strike SPEED depends on:
- my Stamina
- not depends on my fighter’s attributes (the same Strike speed for all over all divisions/weights)
- not depends on my striking limb’s Health
1) Total Strike DAMAGE depends on:
- both fighter’s attributes (“Clinch power” in Clinch, “Ground and Pound” in Ground)
- my Stamina (more Stamina – more damage & FBHR)
- opponent’s Stamina (less Stamina – more damage & FBHR)
- not depends on my striking limb’s Health
- final Total Strike damage NOT depends also on additional Damage multipliers from: 1. Combo multiplier (CM) 2. Counter window (CW) 3. Momentum - physics driven damage with the right timing (when opponent is moving toward my strike) – because in Clinch/Ground does NOT exist 1, 2, 3.
> The best conditions for my Strike is [when I have SA over the opponent – the more Stamina difference/advantage amount the better].

1) STRIKING CONTROLS:
(may holding)L1 + strike - Elbow
(may holding)Lup + strike - Hummer fist
(may holding)Ldown + strike - Hook

2) STRIKE CRUSHING GM:
[While SUB Stamina is < 75% and DOM Stamina is > 30%, from Dominant position (dom MT, dom FM Posture up, etc)] Strike - will interrupt any GM attempt by the opponent with a special Mid Transition Hit Reaction (MTHR).
[When SUB fighter Stamina >75% or DOM fighter Stamina is <30%] SUB fighter begins his GM (w/o risk of DOM strike crushing).
[When SUB fighter Stamina <75% + DOM fighter Stamina is >30%] DOM fighter perform Strikes (for crushing SUB fighter’s GM).
During my Strike I am in GDA - so be aware of your Stamina and always consider re-establishing control [before my Strikes].
IN CLINCH:
Dominant MT Knee to head/Body – intercept opponent’s GM if landed during filled TM; may not intercept, depends major on SA (changing intercepting window of filled TM).
In ALL Clinch positions:
- Punches - does not crush at all
- Kicks, Knees - crush when strike is landed (hit) during his TM (denial window).
In ALL Cage Clinch positions:
- the same
- except one: Cage SC - any strike (even Punch) interrupts opponent's GM.
In Clinch and Cage Clinch – use Punches (for dmg), Kicks/Knees (for interrupts and dmg).
In Cage SC – use Punches (for dmg and interrupts).

IN GROUND:
1. FM Postured up – SUB transition to sub HG:
[SUB <75%, DOM >30%, during Denial window] DOM Strike crush SUB GM
In Postured FM: SUB fighter starts his GM only after opponent’s Strike start; DOM fighter start his Strike just after SUB fighter starts his GM.
2. FM Postured up – SUB transition to FM not postured up (break Posture):
[SUB <75%] DOM Strike crush SUB GM
[SUB > 75% and DOM no matter] DOM Strike will NOT crush SUB transition to Posture down (and gives GA as break Posture up).
3. FM Postured up – SUB transition to sub Back Mount:
[SUB <75%, DOM > 30%, during Denial window, Strike the same side of rolling to] DOM Strike crush SUB GM
4. Back Mount (BM) – SUB transition to sub HG:
[SUB <75% or DOM>30%, during Denial window, Strike the same side] DOM Strike crush SUB GM.
5. Back Side (BS) – SUB transition to sub FG:
[SUB <75% or DOM>30%, during Denial window] DOM Hummer Fist ONLY crush SUB GM.

Posture up strike – (any Posture up strike) intercept opponent’s GM if landed during filling TM:
- in dom FM: may not intercept, depends minor on SA (changing intercepting window of filled TM)
- in dom HG: may not intercept, depends on SA (changing intercepting window of filled TM)
In dom FG: may not intercept, depends major on SA (changing intercepting window of filled TM)
In more dominant Posture up position: Strike intercepting is less depending on Stamina differences (SA) between 2 fighters (but for ex in dom FM with large Stamina disadvantage strike will not intercept opponent’s GM).
In more dominant Posture up position – use more/often any Posture up strikes (for intercepting opponent’s GM), but do not drop Stamina too low (0-30%).



VS STRIKE CRUSH GM:
Block his Strike > immediately perform GM (his Strike will not crush my GM).


1) In Clinch/Ground striking does NOT exist: Combo multiplier (CM), Counter window, Physics driven damage (i.e. momentum, when opponent is moving toward my strike).
(Example: Standing (Stand up) hook, and hook in Single Collar land about the same amount of damage. But Standing hook can be buffed by being thrown in a combo (for CM), or as a counter, or by physics damage with the right timing. None of those conditions & damage bonuses exist in the Clinch/Ground).
2) Reasons to switch Left-Right strikes in Clinch/Ground:
- mix ups to avoid Arm traps in Posture up
- target specific side to damage specific arm during opponent’s Blocking (to break Block sooner)
> Switch/mixing up Left-Right Strikes in Clinch/Ground for: avoid Arm trap in Posture up, and to strike the most damaged opponent’s Hand to break his Block sooner.
3) GnP strike speed - is determined by Stamina only, not attributes!

In Posture up use:
1. Hooks > Hammer fists – to weaken his Block quickly
2. Straights – (fastest GnP strike, but weaker) use when Block is weakened to evade Arm traps.
In Posture up do NOT use:
1. Elbows – (slow and weak) do not use in any position.