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iloveosalot · 07-05-2016, 08:40 PM

I just think it's hella weak that everything in this game is related to which animation triggers instead of skill.

If I do the same sequence of controls those animations should be concrete instead of the game deciding what I was trying to do.

Passing, shooting, layups, defense, everything in this game is predicated on which animation we get, regardless of correct input with the controller.

No other game in the WORLD would try and do this willingly to their clients. I wished we stopped the debate in all other nuances and simply say, NO MORE RANDOMATIONS.

PERIOD.

DakkoN · 07-05-2016, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iloveosalot


	I just think it's hella weak that everything in this game is related to which animation triggers instead of skill. If I do the same sequence of controls those animations should be concrete instead of the game deciding what I was trying to do. Passing, shooting, layups, defense, everything in this game is predicated on which animation we get, regardless of correct input with the controller. No other game in the WORLD would try and do this willingly to their clients. I wished we stopped the debate in all other nuances and simply say, NO MORE RANDOMATIONS. PERIOD.

Literally every sports game ever made with ratings have dice rolls to determine the outcome...

There have to be counters to each and every move in the game..

It's not as simple as a fighting game where you can just hold block button against an offensive attack..

Physics have to be taken into account, acceleration and speed have to be taken into account. And most importantly, balance has to be taken into account. If there's one move that is more successful that you can get to come out 100% of the time, nobody will ever do anything differently.. It's why so many people online just jack threes.. It takes no effort, it takes no skill, it goes in at a high success rate, and the worst that can happen is you miss the shot and get to try again in 24 seconds.

Ownal0t · 07-05-2016, 10:41 PM

there is nothing worst then with the game on the line, 2k picks the slowest dunk or layup package in the package so my opponent can "lebron" me

<_<

iloveosalot · 07-05-2016, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DakkoN


	Literally every sports game ever made with ratings have dice rolls to determine the outcome... There have to be counters to each and every move in the game.. It's not as simple as a fighting game where you can just hold block button against an offensive attack.. Physics have to be taken into account, acceleration and speed have to be taken into account. And most importantly, balance has to be taken into account. If there's one move that is more successful that you can get to come out 100% of the time, nobody will ever do anything differently.. It's why so many people online just jack threes.. It takes no effort, it takes no skill, it goes in at a high success rate, and the worst that can happen is you miss the shot and get to try again in 24 seconds.

Try again. Didn't say that I wanted MY DRIBBLE BEHIND THE BACK TO MAKE THE DEFENDER STUMBLE 100 PERCENT OF THE TIME OHHHH!!!

If I ever get a nasty dunk or a good cross it's because the game ALLOWS me to make those plays at times. And other times, regardless of the said input, it says DENIED and not for a reason that actually makes sense. Specifically, most of the time I'm not successful because there's a completely and utter break down in the animation. They just throw a wrench in the cog just cause, rather than having a viable explanation.

Essentially, every thread on this forum has something to do with a specific move or feature of this game that is deemed as "broken".

I'm saying that this WHOLE GAME is going to be hindered severely until there is an actual cause and effect engine in play, rather than some random outcome generator. The random number generator would be fine if it was STRICTLY for shot success, but it's not. Say I get the perfect opportunity to launch a 3, but the game gives me a horrible shot animation and the defense closes out faster than they should have been. That's not me losing that battle of wits vs the cpu or the opponent, that's just straight tampering. That's literally the laziest way a developer COULD have the outcome of said controller input ensue a result. 99.9% of the games today say "CONTROLLER INPUT 'X' DOES 'X'" not "CONTROLLER INPUT 'X' DOES 'X' UNLESS WE GIVE YOU ANIMATION Y INSTEAD THAT'S SOLE PURPOSE IS TO SAY 'YOU CAN'T ALWAYS HIT 'X' AND EXPECT IT TO BE 'X' EVERY TIME".

Say for instance God Of War. That game requires specific timing to be able to master the moves available to Kratos and that game and it's company have been lauded as masters of the action RPG genre for decades now and on 3 different consoles. Now, GoW has a development cycle of whenever the **** they want, 2K is an annual release. We're not saying we expect a cluster**** of new features every year, I'm just saying before next time when I press X can he pass the ball when I want him to pass it instead of 2K essentially throwing me a random "CHARGE UP" pass that 97% of the time that animation queues is STRICTLY to make me think "NEXT TIME I SHOULDN'T PASS RIGHT THERE" instead of giving me STRAIGHT UP CHEST PASS THAT'S THE EASIEST PASS TO MAKE IN THE GAME WHEN SWINGING THE BALL AROUND, BUT SINCE IT TOOK SO LONG TO GET THERE MY OPEN MAN IS NOW COVERED.

That's not combating the player in a fair and equal environment. That's essentially cheating by the CPU for the CPU or for an AI opponent.

How many people have lost bad games because of momentum swings when taking clearly uncontested, wide open layups or dunks, or shots, simply because the CPU said they wanted to score and even tho you've shut them down 3 possessions in a row there's a lid on the basket so they carry that whole momentum throughout the last 7 minutes of the game when it was tied? (HOF peeps where you at?!!?!)

That's not good programming my dude. And I wish actions had real consequences, concrete consequences, VS whatever the game feels like dishing out.

DakkoN · 07-06-2016, 02:12 AM

"Try again"? lol. Gave you a reason why you can't eliminate dice rolls from the game and you type an entire KJV bible that often contradicts itself. And randomly typing entire sentences in all caps doesn't help your cause, in fact it makes you come off as childish.

Getting a nasty dunk SHOULD be a dice roll, otherwise people would just be dunking on people nonstop.. There has to be a dice roll in there to initiate which contact animation comes out given the situation.. Choosing the appropriate analog stick direction for the correct dunk goes a long way as well.

Getting a good crossover however, isn't because the game "ALLOWS" you to as you say. Crossover animations are fixed based on your Iso Crossover package and the same crossover comes out every single time. If you don't know how to use the crossover to get by your man, then that's your own fault, considering on Superstar difficulty I can get into the paint damn near anytime I want. I'm sorry that you think the game should just hand you positive outcomes because you think you know the game or whatever. It's not hard to get by your man or get an advantageous position, and it's not hard to finish one on one versus the computer or a human on Superstar. Just ask 24th.

What's "hindering the whole game severely" is people that thinks every single thing in the game is broken and complaining because they can't score at will against the computer instead of actually learning the moves and in what context they should be used. If a defender closes out on you fast, guess what, you can very easily take them off the dribble by simply turboing towards the other angle that the defender is coming from, even on Superstar, and can get deep in the paint.

I'm sorry that you get slow pass animations, I don't seem to have that problem unless I'm doing something unnatural like running to the right and then passing to the left. Stationary swing passes and even in motion icon passes don't come out slow to me.

2K has even came out and said that the higher difficulty you play on, you should expect more CPU cheating. I don't know why you people continue act like it's something new that the CPU does things on high difficulties that make no sense. All Star difficulty with slider changes has always been the best experience to me for as many years as I can remember. That standing still dribble pull up in the paint the CPU often does almost never misses on Superstar, regardless of how good Defense is. They get the friendly roll almost every single time.

It's obvious that you disagree, but dice roll mechanics have to be in a game that is based entirely off of player attributes/ratings and badges that also affect ratings. In a game that is almost entirely meant to be played against another person, that has attributes that -directly- effect shot success rates/steal success rates/block success rates/how negatively impacted ratings are by defense, there absolutely HAS to be dice roll mechanics. It's up to the player to learn the mechanics of the game and to figure how to get advantageous animations to play in their favor.

Hooe · 07-06-2016, 02:39 AM

If you get rid of randomness in a sports game, you must also assume at least one of the following:

A: a higher rating always beats a lower rating, ex. a player with 97 3PT always misses his shot when guarded by a player with 98 On-Ball Defense and/or 98 Close-Out. This has to always happen because there is no way to influence the result so that the 97 shot sometimes goes in without randomness.

B: all player ratings are removed from the game, and the controls and game mechanics become more rock-paper-scissors esque. This is more common in fighting games or turn-based strategy games, and really doesn't make sense in a licensed sports game. It maybe could be done though: take the case of pump-faking a shot; maybe that always defeats a block attempt (to allow for a drive to the basket or a side-step, reset, and shoot), but also always loses to a steal attempt (which always knocks the ball out and a potential turnover). This also ensures no randomness and the outcome on the court is purely the result of user stick skills, but it also removes all individuality from every player on the court; individuality isn't possible because there are no ratings to trump the mechanics countering each other.

Neither of these makes sense for any licensed sports game in my opinion, which leaves weighted random dice rolls as the best solution.

iloveosalot · 07-06-2016, 02:46 AM

I still have not complained about random dice rolls being the determining factor of scoring success.

Once again, and I think I've said this in each of my posts and the TITLE of the thread.

I don't want random *** animations. Why is that such a foreign concept? Why are you talking about everything else besides what animation that plays out?

The examples I've given have all been to weight an argument on the ANIMATION. I've been describing situations having to do with bad ANIMATIONS.

I'm not at all talking about shot success, block success, defensive success in the sense of ANYTHING other than which ANIMATION they give me when attempting said action.

Some of you guys are in such denial... LOL

"That never happens to me, bro. Get gud."

I'm telling you, there's been thousands of threads this year talking about each incremental change that happened, and the reoccurring themes I keep reading are issues with the AN-NUH-MAY-SHUNS.

iloveosalot · 07-06-2016, 02:55 AM

unwanted hesitations in dribbles, or complete breaks in momentum
going for a dunk only to be morphed into a layup attempt that mostly thuds on the rim
shooting wide open and getting a slow or awkward release point
playing good defense all the way to the hoop only to get layupped on, dunked on, or a foul regardless of what's input
all the passing animations are awful with standard X, this has been discussed over and over and over
dunks being to slow
cockbacks when no cockbacks equipped
going for a dunk, raising the ball above your head, leaving your feet, BALL IS ABOVE YOUR HEAD, getting ripped from behind

I'm not talking about too many ankle breakers or stumbles when I'm spamming jamaal crawford, that isn't basketball and doesn't hinder my experience when others do it because i know how to defend and even if i stumble a bit, my buddies usually know how to help.

Idc if you think I'm childish, man. I'm just tired of people here acting like they're better than me and I don't know the game.

YOU AIN'T SEEN ME PLAY. But everyone I know knows exactly why I quit playing and haven't been back this year.

The game comes out in 2 months man, at least try and be a little constructive instead of "THIS GAMES PERFECT (it's not, I know that) BUT I STILL LOVE ITTTTTT"

07-05-2016, 08:40 PM	#1
iloveosalot Banned OVR: 0 Join Date: Apr 2016	No more random animation dice rolls plz... I just think it's hella weak that everything in this game is related to which animation triggers instead of skill. If I do the same sequence of controls those animations should be concrete instead of the game deciding what I was trying to do. Passing, shooting, layups, defense, everything in this game is predicated on which animation we get, regardless of correct input with the controller. No other game in the WORLD would try and do this willingly to their clients. I wished we stopped the debate in all other nuances and simply say, NO MORE RANDOMATIONS. PERIOD. born2playball, Ownal0t and Rockie_Fresh88 like this.

07-05-2016, 10:41 PM	#3
Ownal0t MVP OVR: 0 Join Date: Jul 2014	Re: No more random animation dice rolls plz... there is nothing worst then with the game on the line, 2k picks the slowest dunk or layup package in the package so my opponent can "lebron" me <_< blackninja likes this.

07-06-2016, 02:12 AM	#5
DakkoN All Star OVR: 37 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: London, KY Posts: 5,623	Re: No more random animation dice rolls plz... "Try again"? lol. Gave you a reason why you can't eliminate dice rolls from the game and you type an entire KJV bible that often contradicts itself. And randomly typing entire sentences in all caps doesn't help your cause, in fact it makes you come off as childish. Getting a nasty dunk SHOULD be a dice roll, otherwise people would just be dunking on people nonstop.. There has to be a dice roll in there to initiate which contact animation comes out given the situation.. Choosing the appropriate analog stick direction for the correct dunk goes a long way as well. Getting a good crossover however, isn't because the game "ALLOWS" you to as you say. Crossover animations are fixed based on your Iso Crossover package and the same crossover comes out every single time. If you don't know how to use the crossover to get by your man, then that's your own fault, considering on Superstar difficulty I can get into the paint damn near anytime I want. I'm sorry that you think the game should just hand you positive outcomes because you think you know the game or whatever. It's not hard to get by your man or get an advantageous position, and it's not hard to finish one on one versus the computer or a human on Superstar. Just ask 24th. What's "hindering the whole game severely" is people that thinks every single thing in the game is broken and complaining because they can't score at will against the computer instead of actually learning the moves and in what context they should be used. If a defender closes out on you fast, guess what, you can very easily take them off the dribble by simply turboing towards the other angle that the defender is coming from, even on Superstar, and can get deep in the paint. I'm sorry that you get slow pass animations, I don't seem to have that problem unless I'm doing something unnatural like running to the right and then passing to the left. Stationary swing passes and even in motion icon passes don't come out slow to me. 2K has even came out and said that the higher difficulty you play on, you should expect more CPU cheating. I don't know why you people continue act like it's something new that the CPU does things on high difficulties that make no sense. All Star difficulty with slider changes has always been the best experience to me for as many years as I can remember. That standing still dribble pull up in the paint the CPU often does almost never misses on Superstar, regardless of how good Defense is. They get the friendly roll almost every single time. It's obvious that you disagree, but dice roll mechanics have to be in a game that is based entirely off of player attributes/ratings and badges that also affect ratings. In a game that is almost entirely meant to be played against another person, that has attributes that -directly- effect shot success rates/steal success rates/block success rates/how negatively impacted ratings are by defense, there absolutely HAS to be dice roll mechanics. It's up to the player to learn the mechanics of the game and to figure how to get advantageous animations to play in their favor. Black Bruce Wayne, m29a and ViolenceFight like this. __________________ PSN: UK2K_Ch33k0 XBL: Ch33k0 Twitch: http://www.twitch.tv/Ch33k0 Last edited by DakkoN; 07-06-2016 at 02:17 AM.

07-06-2016, 02:39 AM	#6
Hooe Five Becomes Four OVR: 45 Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Culver City, CA Posts: 21,523	Re: No more random animation dice rolls plz... If you get rid of randomness in a sports game, you must also assume at least one of the following: A: a higher rating always beats a lower rating, ex. a player with 97 3PT always misses his shot when guarded by a player with 98 On-Ball Defense and/or 98 Close-Out. This has to always happen because there is no way to influence the result so that the 97 shot sometimes goes in without randomness. B: all player ratings are removed from the game, and the controls and game mechanics become more rock-paper-scissors esque. This is more common in fighting games or turn-based strategy games, and really doesn't make sense in a licensed sports game. It maybe could be done though: take the case of pump-faking a shot; maybe that always defeats a block attempt (to allow for a drive to the basket or a side-step, reset, and shoot), but also always loses to a steal attempt (which always knocks the ball out and a potential turnover). This also ensures no randomness and the outcome on the court is purely the result of user stick skills, but it also removes all individuality from every player on the court; individuality isn't possible because there are no ratings to trump the mechanics countering each other. Neither of these makes sense for any licensed sports game in my opinion, which leaves weighted random dice rolls as the best solution. sactown_13, NoLeafClover and bcruise like this.

07-06-2016, 02:46 AM	#7
iloveosalot Banned OVR: 0 Join Date: Apr 2016	Re: No more random animation dice rolls plz... I still have not complained about random dice rolls being the determining factor of scoring success. Once again, and I think I've said this in each of my posts and the TITLE of the thread. I don't want random *** animations. Why is that such a foreign concept? Why are you talking about everything else besides what animation that plays out? The examples I've given have all been to weight an argument on the ANIMATION. I've been describing situations having to do with bad ANIMATIONS. I'm not at all talking about shot success, block success, defensive success in the sense of ANYTHING other than which ANIMATION they give me when attempting said action. Some of you guys are in such denial... LOL "That never happens to me, bro. Get gud." I'm telling you, there's been thousands of threads this year talking about each incremental change that happened, and the reoccurring themes I keep reading are issues with the AN-NUH-MAY-SHUNS.

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07-06-2016, 02:55 AM	#8
iloveosalot Banned OVR: 0 Join Date: Apr 2016	Re: No more random animation dice rolls plz... unwanted hesitations in dribbles, or complete breaks in momentum going for a dunk only to be morphed into a layup attempt that mostly thuds on the rim shooting wide open and getting a slow or awkward release point playing good defense all the way to the hoop only to get layupped on, dunked on, or a foul regardless of what's input all the passing animations are awful with standard X, this has been discussed over and over and over dunks being to slow cockbacks when no cockbacks equipped going for a dunk, raising the ball above your head, leaving your feet, BALL IS ABOVE YOUR HEAD, getting ripped from behind I'm not talking about too many ankle breakers or stumbles when I'm spamming jamaal crawford, that isn't basketball and doesn't hinder my experience when others do it because i know how to defend and even if i stumble a bit, my buddies usually know how to help. Idc if you think I'm childish, man. I'm just tired of people here acting like they're better than me and I don't know the game. YOU AIN'T SEEN ME PLAY. But everyone I know knows exactly why I quit playing and haven't been back this year. The game comes out in 2 months man, at least try and be a little constructive instead of "THIS GAMES PERFECT (it's not, I know that) BUT I STILL LOVE ITTTTTT" born2playball, AgentZer0 and hanzsomehanz like this.

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No more random animation dice rolls plz...