Formation Subs vs. Custom Packages

[Senator Palmer]

I know that formation subs have been on the community wishlist pretty much since Madden came to Gen 3 platforms. Now I have no idea whether they will be available in Madden 17, but I wanted to expand on the difference between formation subs and custom packages and why I think custom packages is the way to go.

As many of you know, the NFL more than ever is a game up matchups driven by an eclectic mix of personnel. Take a team just as an example like the Atlanta Falcons who have 246 lb. Vic Beasley playing as their open-side end. Now obviously at that weight you don't want to run him out there crashing into 300 plus pound tackles 65 snaps a game. You want to specialize his role, you want him to play in certain packages and not in others.

Now this is where Madden comes in. In a formation sub, as it worked in NCAA at least, you could place a player in a formation but the problem was that he would stay in that ENTIRE formation and all of its sets no matter what. So if I put a player in a position in Nickel that player would stay in that same spot in Nickel Normal, Wide-9, Nickel Strong, Nickel 3-3-5, whatever. And the player didn't move or sub even when you accessed the packages on the right stick. The only way to take the player out was to manually sub, which to me went against the point of formation subs in the first place.

I may want Vic Beasley as a 3rd down rusher in a Wide-9 set, but I may not want him to play in Nickel Strong because that's more of a run stopping set. But with formation subs you're stuck with Beasley in every Nickel set.

This is where custom packages comes in because I can create my own packages within the sets. Now I can have Courtney Upshaw who is listed as an OLB on Atlanta's roster, but is 272 lbs. -- now I can create a run-stopping package in Nickel Normal where he plays defensive end, along with Tyson Jackson, another stout run defender with no pass rush traits as a defensive tackle and have Derrick Shelby as the other defensive end. Then when I want to get after it and close a game out I got my pass rushing Nickel Normal package with Beasley on one edge, Derrick Shelby slid inside as a tackle in place of Tyson Jackson, with Adrian Clayborn coming off the bench as the other end... (pretty much the way Dan Quinn has indicated).

Now Madden has done a really good job the past few years of adding default packages to reflect actual personnel, but it has hit a wall and isn't able to keep up with what's going on. Like the Raiders defense. One week Khalil Mack is a defensive end, the next he's an OLB.

Now all of this may seem like a bit much and I know this isn't something everyone will get into, but the potential addition of formation subs indicates there is thought in the design of this game toward players who immerse themselves in this type of strategy, so I'm just saying let's go all the way. Formation subs are great, but they are a half-measure. Custom packages truly offer more control.

[Ueauvan]

there is a place for both, for example if i want to keep in 3-4, in a 3rd and 10 vs 3 wr 1 te because my nickel is injured and dime isnt good enough and my safeties are poo (or whatever) the sub package i want in is my best zcv or mcv lbers.

doesnt help if you dont know fatigue levels

i also want non starters on special teams, thats not a package

can i have formation subs like madden 08 or hc06, and custom package overlay/ that way you can use one, both or none

ps can i have a hands package

[Senator Palmer]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ueauvan

there is a place for both, for example if i want to keep in 3-4, in a 3rd and 10 vs 3 wr 1 te because my nickel is injured and dime isnt good enough and my safeties are poo (or whatever) the sub package i want in is my best zcv or mcv lbers. doesnt help if you dont know fatigue levels i also want non starters on special teams, thats not a package can i have formation subs like madden 08 or hc06, and custom package overlay/ that way you can use one, both or none ps can i have a hands package

I don't disagree.

May come off like I want one over the other. I don't. They both should be in the game, but I see a lot of posts asking for formation subs and rarely see packages mentioned at all. Just wanted to expound on the differences between the two and why I think custom packages are just as imperative.

[DeuceDouglas]

Obviously both would be better but I would personally use Custom Packages more. Formation Subs would be great for kickoffs and special teams but I think anything I wanted to do offensively or defensively could be done with Custom Packages. I really, really hope these both got in. The only bummer is that the CPU doesn't use packages at all so that's one thing formation subs would do a lot better.

Just thinking about possibilities of a 3rd RB or Short yardage back package, moving receivers around, drafting guys for potential roles would have me excited for this so I'm hoping they both got in but if I had to choose it'd for sure be custom packages.

[Ampking101]

Honestly they just need to completely rehaul the depth chart set up. We already have a 3rd down back option. Why don't we have 3rd down or pass vs run options? If you add in the ability to choose to sub in one set of players or the other in each category I see no reason why that wouldn't be beneficial, I mean they should give us the ability to do all three but if they allowed us to build our depth chart as our base and then allowed us to package players in and out as a whole.

For example, as the original post states, you wouldn't want Beasley in a strong formation because it is better for run stopping; say for instance though that all game you have used it as a formation to stop the run with your run stopping guys, you want to try to catch the offense slipping though so you call a strong formation again but this time you package in your pass rush guys and make it look like you are running a blitz, if you can catch him not paying attention to the players subbed, he might audible to a pass and bam you have an advantage now.

This would be so much easier to do with the little amount of time you have to sub players in, let alone pick a play after the offense has chosen. We should also be able to choose who we want in specific formations beforehand but I believe a more in depth, depth chart would help flesh out defense completely. Imagine being able to set up a coverage strong safety and a run stop strong safety (or heck even being able to package a linebacker at strong safety while you move your coverage strong safety to nickle corner to stop the run) these options along with what others have suggested would be an awesome to be able to make defenses unique, give each team and each player a personality while also adding into the additions they are talking about with making defense matter again.

[Big FN Deal]

Granted it's been a long time since I was actually able to utilize the feature in any football game but if I recall correctly, "custom packages" could be achieved with "formation subs" once upon a time. I seem to remember when the formation sub ability, possibly even in Madden, allowed the User to go through every formation and variant, so the User could do exactly what the OP is describing as "custom packages". I think the only limitation was for individual plays but that might have been achievable then too in team management.

I think the specific issue with "custom management" in Madden was with Users using that as a workaround to put any player, anywhere, which becomes an exploit due to the games programming. That said, I don't think it's a big deal to just limit "formation subs"/"custom packages" to the same restrictions as the general depth chart, ie only players from certain "positions" can be interchanged.

Anyway, the general consensus with regard to this stuff is, add it back to team management/pregame, not just the gametime menu/sideline version.

[downundermike]

Quote: Originally Posted by DeuceDouglas

Obviously both would be better but I would personally use Custom Packages more. Formation Subs would be great for kickoffs and special teams but I think anything I wanted to do offensively or defensively could be done with Custom Packages. I really, really hope these both got in. The only bummer is that the CPU doesn't use packages at all so that's one thing formation subs would do a lot better. Just thinking about possibilities of a 3rd RB or Short yardage back package, moving receivers around, drafting guys for potential roles would have me excited for this so I'm hoping they both got in but if I had to choose it'd for sure be custom packages.

I used to go crazy with custom packages. Moving my faster recievers to the inside on 4 wide sets, having specific pass rush packages for dime defense. Also just using them for mass substitution.

[RogueHominid]

I think both could have a place. I don't see either actually making it into Madden, though.

I think the packages idea is really compelling because that's how today's NFL strategy is organized.

The problem I think Madden will have in implementing such a concept is coming up with a set of options for both sides of the ball that mimics what we see on Sunday. They haven't been able to do so for playbooks, game plans, or the current player and scheme type system, so I don't think there's reason to believe they could execute a robust package sub system.

I think an additional problem would be that they would need to be more restrictive than we might like because of how such a system could be abused in online play.

I suppose if I had to choose one, I'd choose formation subs because that's the option I think they could implement at least reasonably well, and that's the option that the sim community has been asking for year after year.