The problems with defense

[ggsimmonds]

Okay so we all know that defense is a little under powered in this game, but why? Well here are few things on the defensive side of the ball that are not replicated in Ma**en:

1. In real life defenses read/react/alter coverage based on what the offense does.
Here are a few examples : http://blitzology.blogspot.com/2013/...with-read.html
http://blitzology.blogspot.com/2013/...-blitz-vs.html
http://blitzology.blogspot.com/2012/...-new-york.html
This is not in Madden. What we have are static plays.

2. In Madden all QBs have perfect footwork, mechanics, and timing with their WRs. Watch a Patriots or Broncos game this season. At some point I am fairly confident you will hear the commentator praise Brady/Manning's footwork. This is not a meaningless cliche, their superb footwork helps them to shred zone defenses. I will not go into a lengthy discussion as to why, instead see for yourself by watching them and then the lesser QBs. Footwork is part of the reason why they are so skilled at going through progressions. Not that it matters because...

3. All QBs are experts at going through progressions. Ever here the phrase "one read QB?" Not in Madden, they all are like Montana.

4. WR route running matters, but not as much as it should. Short version: Even "bad" route runners run good routes.

5. Zone coverage is limited. Ever hear of Pattern-matching defense? Well apparently the folks over at EA have no clue what it is. Here is a very brief rundown: The zone coverage in game is the basic "spot-watching" coverage. The defender drops back to a predefined spot and watches the QBs eyes. When the QB releases the ball, the defender makes a break on the ball. So all the talk you hear from some posters of how defenders ignore players in their zone is correct. They do do that, but they are suppose to. Breaking on every WR who enters your zone is how you get out of position, and this what disciplined defense references. Here is the problem: As previously mentioned every QB has excellent footwork and and is great at going through his reads. The result is that zone defense kinda sucks because every QB gets the ball out as quickly as the elite real life QBs do and they can read defenses equally as well (even Tebow for crying out loud). Can you ever remember the AI QB missing (i.e. not seeing) a open WR? And spot watching is the only type of zone in the game. Three cheers for EA! Ever call cover three only to see your SS/OLB covering nothing but grass in the flats while the offense runs 4 verts? Sucks doesn't it?

Read: http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...ics-zone-blitz

That does better job of explaining it than I ever could. Basically against that 4 vert play your 3d coverage became Cover 1 man. But again, defenses in Madden are static and don't adapt to the offense.

6. Familiar with the phrase CBs need a short memory? EA took it to heart because in Madden CBs have no memory at all. You can call Curl Flats 10 straight times and the tenth will work just as good as the first. Coupled with this is the whole atrocious play calling problem. Imagine it is 3rd and 11 for the Baltimore offense. Any football fan knows to protect the sidelines because rumor has it Joe is one of the best at throwing to the sidelines/deep out. What does the AI do? Why they come out in cover 1 with the corners playing off. That is a completion every time (as it should be). But then people scream that DBs can't cover, so what do we do? We adjust sliders to make up for the limited AI but now lining up in trips against a cover 2 and going to the Smash concept doesn't work because we had to sup up the DBs. That is not an acceptable outcome.

There are more problems, but I don't want to write an entire novel. A short story is enough for one night

[friscob]

I can live with some of the coverage problems even though I'd like to see it get tightened up. My biggest problem is the lack of control i have over a defender when I'm controlling him. I can be strafing w/ a safety in coverage and see a TE break his route off towards the middle of the field and I just can't seem to get my player in position to make a play.

[ggsimmonds]

Quote: Originally Posted by friscob

I can live with some of the coverage problems even though I'd like to see it get tightened up. My biggest problem is the lack of control i have over a defender when I'm controlling him. I can be strafing w/ a safety in coverage and see a TE break his route off towards the middle of the field and I just can't seem to get my player in position to make a play.

By make a play do you mean get interception? Just swat the ball or flick the hit stick. I've noticed (in NCAA at least) that if I switch to a corner and go for the hit stick the chances that the WR drops the pass increase drastically even if I whiff on the hit. It is like the game tries to reward players for getting on the sticks similar to what NBA 2k does. It is kinda funny, my corner will be 3 yrds away and lunge to the ground and the ball will bounce right off the WR's hands.

[aspengc8]

Quote: Originally Posted by ggsimmonds

Okay so we all know that defense is a little under powered in this game, but why? Well here are few things on the defensive side of the ball that are not replicated in Ma**en: 1. In real life defenses read/react/alter coverage based on what the offense does. Here are a few examples : http://blitzology.blogspot.com/2013/...with-read.html http://blitzology.blogspot.com/2013/...-blitz-vs.html http://blitzology.blogspot.com/2012/...-new-york.html This is not in Madden. What we have are static plays. 2. In Madden all QBs have perfect footwork, mechanics, and timing with their WRs. Watch a Patriots or Broncos game this season. At some point I am fairly confident you will hear the commentator praise Brady/Manning's footwork. This is not a meaningless cliche, their superb footwork helps them to shred zone defenses. I will not go into a lengthy discussion as to why, instead see for yourself by watching them and then the lesser QBs. Footwork is part of the reason why they are so skilled at going through progressions. Not that it matters because... 3. All QBs are experts at going through progressions. Ever here the phrase "one read QB?" Not in Madden, they all are like Montana. 4. WR route running matters, but not as much as it should. Short version: Even "bad" route runners run good routes. 5. Zone coverage is limited. Ever hear of Pattern-matching defense? Well apparently the folks over at EA have no clue what it is. Here is a very brief rundown: The zone coverage in game is the basic "spot-watching" coverage. The defender drops back to a predefined spot and watches the QBs eyes. When the QB releases the ball, the defender makes a break on the ball. So all the talk you hear from some posters of how defenders ignore players in their zone is correct. They do do that, but they are suppose to. Breaking on every WR who enters your zone is how you get out of position, and this what disciplined defense references. Here is the problem: As previously mentioned every QB has excellent footwork and and is great at going through his reads. The result is that zone defense kinda sucks because every QB gets the ball out as quickly as the elite real life QBs do and they can read defenses equally as well (even Tebow for crying out loud). Can you ever remember the AI QB missing (i.e. not seeing) a open WR? And spot watching is the only type of zone in the game. Three cheers for EA! Ever call cover three only to see your SS/OLB covering nothing but grass in the flats while the offense runs 4 verts? Sucks doesn't it? Read: http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...ics-zone-blitz That does better job of explaining it than I ever could. Basically against that 4 vert play your 3d coverage became Cover 1 man. But again, defenses in Madden are static and don't adapt to the offense. 6. Familiar with the phrase CBs need a short memory? EA took it to heart because in Madden CBs have no memory at all. You can call Curl Flats 10 straight times and the tenth will work just as good as the first. Coupled with this is the whole atrocious play calling problem. Imagine it is 3rd and 11 for the Baltimore offense. Any football fan knows to protect the sidelines because rumor has it Joe is one of the best at throwing to the sidelines/deep out. What does the AI do? Why they come out in cover 1 with the corners playing off. That is a completion every time (as it should be). But then people scream that DBs can't cover, so what do we do? We adjust sliders to make up for the limited AI but now lining up in trips against a cover 2 and going to the Smash concept doesn't work because we had to sup up the DBs. That is not an acceptable outcome. There are more problems, but I don't want to write an entire novel. A short story is enough for one night

Great info man. I've been preaching this stuff for a long time. This is what happens when you have people working on a football game that either don't understand the intricacies of football or never really played beyond pop warner level. APF 2K8 did a pretty good job at this but EA is nowhere close. Nowhere.

[Rezzo503]

Good stuff

I was just talking about this in another thread.

But in my honest opinion, I don't think it's EA not wanting to do things such as Pattern Matching, I believe they don't have the A.I to do so.

Like I said, everyone praises Nba 2k... But no team in that game can run the Triangle offense AS IT SHOULD BE. It's simply because we would need super advanced AI. LoL

Maybe next Gen.

[ggsimmonds]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rezzo503

Good stuff I was just talking about this in another thread. But in my honest opinion, I don't think it's EA not wanting to do things such as Pattern Matching, I believe they don't have the A.I to do so. Like I said, everyone praises Nba 2k... But no team in that game can run the Triangle offense AS IT SHOULD BE. It's simply because we would need super advanced AI. LoL Maybe next Gen.

Its a little of both. Programming the AI to use pattern matching defense would be difficult, but there is also the problem of user control. The vast majority of Madden users would not understand or know the assignments so that would discourage user control.

[ggsimmonds]

Quote: Originally Posted by aspengc8

Great info man. I've been preaching this stuff for a long time. This is what happens when you have people working on a football game that either don't understand the intricacies of football or never really played beyond pop warner level. APF 2K8 did a pretty good job at this but EA is nowhere close. Nowhere.

It is not that the people at ea don't understand the intricacies of football, the issue is that they are trying to develop a casual friendly football game. Another way of putting it is that it is the gamers who don't understand the intricacies of football.

[dghustla]

Great Post OP.

In regard to point 5. and zone coverage. I don't mind spot watching but I think Here is where ratings need to come into play and be a BIG factor.

75> players should be spot watching.
76-90 those players need to be reading and reacting and covering guys in their zones.

90< these are elite coverage guys. They should be recognizing route combinations and running with guys when they realize their is no threat. You gave a great example of some one running 4 verts. elite zone defenders should recognize when their is no underneath threat and continue to stretch with the WRs.