Let's Talk Infield Play (infielders and baserunners)

[Jolly Roger]

I was hoping we could get a discussion going about the overall dynamics of infield play in The Show and how it might be improved in the future.

In general, it seems to me that a combination of small fielding issues accumulate to create too many double plays. In reality, teams get about .5 to 1 double plays per game. In The Show, I'd estimate it comes out to about 1.5 to 2 per game. This may not seem like much, but even that small increment makes a big difference in the game when you consider what an impact it is to get two outs on one play.

Some of the factors I think I'm noticing are:

- Grounders seem to shoot through the infield too fast

- Fielders don't have to slow their momentum and set their body to throw as much as in reality

- Throws seem a bit too fast

- AI batters may not be programmed to avoid the double play by laying off low balls and trying to hit it in the air. Similarly, I'm not sure if the AI ever does any intentional hit and run plays.

- Baserunners don't seem to leap out toward the next base in anticipation of a hit as much as in reality. If you have a speedy runner on first and he takes a healthy shuffle toward second right before a ground ball, it's going to be awfully tough to get him at second and the fielder will often just go to first. I only see this in The Show when the man on first was flat out stealing before a grounder.

If some of these physics/momentum based issues could be improved upon for next year, The Show 13 would even closer to perfection. Does anyone else notice any of these issues?

[nomo17k]

Haha, good point... in fact, heroesandvillains and I did a fairly extensive test on what causes the inflated number of double plays. (We both agreed that a double play is such an effective rally killer that happening too often kinda kills the flow of the game.)

Here's what I think after the testing.

- Grounders seem to shoot through the infield too fast

This may or may not affect double plays, since bullets can leave infield before getting caught.

- Fielders don't have to slow their momentum and set their body to throw as much as in reality
- Throws seem a bit too fast


I most definitely think these are major culprits. I think the one of the things that the devs are working on is to add natural and organic imperfection to how the CPU fielders perform on the field. There has been a vast improvement in this regard (just go play MLB 10 a bit and you can see it). However, CPU still is a bit too perfect in certain plays. Like being able to make a well-aimed, strong throws after twisting his body on the throw, one-handed relay at the 2B well executed too often, generally making difficult plays more consistently, etc., etc.

- AI batters may not be programmed to avoid the double play by laying off low balls and trying to hit it in the air. Similarly, I'm not sure if the AI ever does any intentional hit and run plays.

H&V suspected this first, and played quite a few test games just to test this point. We put a man on first base, let CPU pitch against CPU hitter and recorded the results in terms of GB/LD/FB, to see if the grounders are induced more in double play situations than other hitting situations... we didn't see such a significant change in the fractions of batted balls, at least not to the extent that can explain the almost 50% increase in DPs compared to real life. So I think isn't a culprit, at least not a major one.


- Baserunners don't seem to leap out toward the next base in anticipation of a hit as much as in reality. If you have a speedy runner on first and he takes a healthy shuffle toward second right before a ground ball, it's going to be awfully tough to get him at second and the fielder will often just go to first. I only see this in The Show when the man on first was flat out stealing before a grounder.

Yeah, I think base running can be fine tuned a bit more... they are aggressive when they need not be, and quite often station to station when they should be going for an extra base. This should be balanced in relation to the CPU throwing decisions and throw strengths though.

[ELDoro]

I agree with everything you said.

I would also so that the short flips and tosses from say the 2B to SS are way to quick compared to real life.

[seanjeezy]

Quote: Originally Posted by Jolly Roger

- Throws seem a bit too fast

Quote: Originally Posted by nomo17k

- Throws seem a bit too fast

Funny that you guys mention this because I was at the Mariners game last night and throw speed on 5 was eerily similar to when Carlos Triunfel (who is known to have a rocket arm) was warming up between innings - effortless lasers from the grass at short... The problem is not every infielder can throw 90+, so maybe a greater disparity between arm strength is needed? Maybe combine that with some kind of ratings hit when performing off-balance throws, or even having powerful throws require an extra loadup frame or crow hop...

The other glaring issue (for me at least) is how poorly the batter gets out of the box. Players with 99 speed and Base running ability should have home to first times in the high 3's, but with the speed slider on default they are closer to the mid 4's. The culprit is the poor follow through animations where regardless of swing power has every batter swinging out of his shoes.

[nomo17k]

Quote: Originally Posted by seanjeezy

Funny that you guys mention this because I was at the Mariners game last night and throw speed on 5 was eerily similar to when Carlos Triunfel (who is known to have a rocket arm) was warming up between innings - effortless lasers from the grass at short... The problem is not every infielder can throw 90+, so maybe a greater disparity between arm strength is needed? Maybe combine that with some kind of ratings hit when performing off-balance throws, or even having powerful throws require an extra loadup frame or crow hop... The other glaring issue (for me at least) is how poorly the batter gets out of the box. Players with 99 speed and Base running ability should have home to first times in the high 3's, but with the speed slider on default they are closer to the mid 4's. The culprit is the poor follow through animations where regardless of swing power has every batter swinging out of his shoes.

I couldn't agree more with this... because if I agree more, my head will explode. It's that important IMO...

I'm a strong believer that the game will be much better and more fun if the player attributes are mapped to wider ranges in their on-field abilities. This is not just fielding (which as you mentioned is quite subtle though the difference is definitely there), but also for batting and pitching as well.

The wider dynamic ranges in abilities will also make it possible to create/simulate players with exceptional abilities. Right now, you cannot create players who perform exceptionally well in certain categories, like Greg Maddux, Barry Bonds, etc. A vast majority of players cluster around the average, even when some ratings are maxed or minimized.

Or I should mention players like Aroldis Chapman or Craig Kimbrel... otherwise people here would think my head is stuck at 90s baseball... My point is that we can never create players like them unless attribute ratings mean wider ability differences.

[seanjeezy]

I'm thinking of taking a look at the default roster that shipped with the game and compiling the fielding ratings so I can see if there are any similarities with Tango Tiger's (a.k.a. Fangraphs') fan scouting report. Does anyone have any ideas on how SCEA determines defensive ratings? I have a feeling errors are involved since Brendan Ryan only has a 58 fielding rating.

[nomo17k]

Quote: Originally Posted by seanjeezy

I'm thinking of taking a look at the default roster that shipped with the game and compiling the fielding ratings so I can see if there are any similarities with Tango Tiger's (a.k.a. Fangraphs') fan scouting report. Does anyone have any ideas on how SCEA determines defensive ratings? I have a feeling errors are involved since Brendan Ryan only has a 58 fielding rating.

You don't need to repeat this yourself, as I have done this for MLB 11 (as far as collecting ratings for all players at MLB level is concerned). If you want to take a look, I can send you the Excel file (or it should be found in one of my earlier posts).

I bet you cannot really "reverse engineer" how SCEA rates them though. There just are too many possibilities.

[Jolly Roger]

Quote: Originally Posted by nomo17k

Haha, good point... in fact, heroesandvillains and I did a fairly extensive test on what causes the inflated number of double plays.

You know, I actually found that thread you guys had going (read it front to back) right after I made this thread and felt a bit silly for not finding it first. Apparently the forum only keeps 4 pages worth of threads on display. Anyway, I was thinking the same thing you guys were thinking.

Quote: Originally Posted by nomo17k

Here's what I think after the testing. - Grounders seem to shoot through the infield too fast This may or may not affect double plays, since bullets can leave infield before getting caught.

True, but I don't see many slow, bouncing grounders in the game, which could definitely increase double plays. Slow bouncing balls will (a) slow down the play and give the runners more time to advance, and (b) prove troublesome to mediocre fielders, who might not handle a bad hop. I'd like to see more infielders getting "eaten up" in The Show.

Quote: Originally Posted by nomo17k

I'm a strong believer that the game will be much better and more fun if the player attributes are mapped to wider ranges in their on-field abilities. This is not just fielding (which as you mentioned is quite subtle though the difference is definitely there), but also for batting and pitching as well. The wider dynamic ranges in abilities will also make it possible to create/simulate players with exceptional abilities. Right now, you cannot create players who perform exceptionally well in certain categories, like Greg Maddux, Barry Bonds, etc. A vast majority of players cluster around the average, even when some ratings are maxed or minimized.

I really agree with this as well. I remember someone here (perhaps it was you?) did some stat/ratings calibrations and determined that it's hard to create a hitter that can consistently hit, say, .320.

With four different levels of pro ball represented in the game, it's hard to differentiate them properly with the current spread.



I tried something recently that really confirms the idea that infielders in the game don't have to slow their momentum and set themselves (like they should). As you've probably noticed, you can throw the ball as soon as your player fields it, or you can wait for him to slow down and set himself before throwing (as in reality). When I tried letting their fielding animation play out, it really cut down on the double plays I was making. Perhaps the developers could do one of two things in the future: (a) make it so you can't throw until the contextual fielding animation has played out and the fielder has set himself to throw, or (b) punish early, unnatural throws by greatly increasing the chance of a throwing error. Of course, the same would need to apply to the AI.

I think the outfielding could use some tweaks as well, but perhaps that's another matter. Eh, since I've mentioned it, does anyone else feel that both the human and AI outfielders don't back each other up responsively enough? I see a lot of balls hit to right center and left center where the corner outfielder misses the catch, falls down, gets up and chases the ball back to the wall. In reality, wouldn't the center fielder get there pretty quickly to back him up? I tend to think of triples only happening on balls in the corner where the center fielder can't help out on. I get a triple every game it seems.