Presentation Issues Continue To Haunt Madden Series

[Moegames]

Some issues i want to point out to EA Developers that may be reading these important kind of threads such as mine.

Yes time and time again some of us that really want good presentation try and try give some friendly advice to the developers only to be dismayed by the lackluster presentation. I had to bring up a beat'n dead horse but my oh my its been 7 years since i lasted played a NFL football game that had rock'n presentation that contributed to a fun playing game of pigskin...yup you guessed it.. ESPN NFL 2k5 was that gem of a game.

It does not require a genius, rocket scientist or even a measly old college degree to understand what it takes to make a fun playing football game..some of us average joes have some idea's that would help the game if idea's from us in here were actually used and hopefully they have in the past..

Yes solid game play is the utmost importance but believe it or not creating a NFL Football game that is "FUN" is "just as important" as good game play and presentation plays a major role in this.

1. Play by Play.. it MUST GO..i think it was better when you guys had madden's voice doing play by play honestly and i hated it back then. Look at NFL 2k5 or NBA2k11..yeah i know..from your worst enemy's work but put aside the pride and take a good look at how they implemented their play by play..yeah i know..they use a different engine and their code wouldnt work with your madden engine..but FIND A WAY TO COPY IT AS BEST AS YOU GUYS CAN for crying out loud..not to sound rude but its about time you guys get this darn presentation down pat.

2. The cut scenes...yup once again i see way too many cut scenes repeating in madden 12. Not to sound like a broken record but ...you need to add tons more cut scenes in order to make this game feel alive. I tried telling you guys some years ago that this is VERY IMPORTANT...no the answer is not to trim the amount of cut scenes down or cut down the amount that plays through a game .. that is NOT the answer....you MUST add heaps more of these cut scenes into the game.....believe it or not these cut scenes help make the game feel alive..but if your gonna do it..do it right..add tons of cut scenes to the game..the intro cut scenes are ok but once again they repeat way too much..more players on the field working out stretching, talking to trainers, signing autographs,etc would be better then having team specific cut scenes before each game..just have a ton of them so they dont repeat.....i think the in-game cut scenes is where you all should concentrate on though... before and after plays add many more on the field and sideline cut scenes.. coaches, coordinators, players, ankle tapers, water boys, news reporters, fans, photographers cleaning their lens,etc..the idea's are endless ..these little touches would totally make madden feel alive..but its sooooo important to have enough of them so they dont repeat..to this day it hasnt been done right ..the only game i played that got close was NFL2k5.

3. Half time show...we need a very informative halftime show..yeah like the real thing we see on fox half time show....once again NFL 2k5 did it right or i should say got close to getting it right... Who cares if you gotta use their halftime show.. i highly suggest you use it to the T if you have too. Do something with the half time stuff...

4. Playoff and Superbowl games dont feel much different then regular season games...the super bowl ending has some nice touches..yes good work on that but the playoffs are the heart and soul of NFL football. You guys gotta separate the playoffs from the regular season games. Cant you guys work on a separate set of cut scenes, commentary,etc just for the playoffs? Some "unique" in-game play by play commentary and cut scenes would really help this..some banners and other things plastered in the stadium to really spice up the playoff atmosphere would do wonders.

5. Midweek stuff - after sunday give us some things to do during the regular week when there are no games..its that immersion factor that sucks us gamers into the game. RPGish elements like this really do wonders for sports games. I remember stating years ago in here that i felt that sports games would eventually inherit RPG elements into their sports games..a few years later NFL 2k5 came out with some weekly midweek stuff into that game that made that game damn fun even off the field..while it was minimal it sure the hell made it fun to dig into the game..yeah i know that may take time to implement but its something you developers need to get into Madden. Some workout training during the week to increase stamina or help heal injuries,etc...trade offers, firing and hiring, game play adjustments that really affect sunday's games,etc..stuff like that which i considering Role Playing game elements would really make madden fun.

I really hope developers see this and realize that these presentation elements are just as important to sports games as is good game play elements are. You cant have one with out the other..well you can but the game wont feel complete unless both are there. I think the "fun" factor is sometimes more important then trying to perfect game play..yeah sounds odd saying this but when it comes to sports games...we want a fun playing game..sure some what statistical perfection... but the majority want a fun playing game of pigskin..and in order to achieve that...presentation is a major factor.


Some of my idea's of good cut scenes:

Note: Lets get some voices added to some of these sideline cut scenes...have some players saying "hi mom" into the camera during a cut scene of a team's sideline...or add some voices of assistant coaches explaining to be more aggressive,alert,etc while some offensive or defensive players huddled around these coaches,etc...the voices would add a new depth to some of these cut scenes. Not suggesting every cut scene have voice overlays but just some..again..varied but many cut scenes bring sports games alive. Even after touchdowns ..cant quite remember if there are any in current madden but voice overlays of players celebrating after a TD or hard hit would be nice.

Pre-game cut scenes

Tailgaters - yes i know you had it before but dropped it.. not every game this would be needed but sprinkle these tailgater cut scenes to happen once every handful of games..doing it every game would be horrific sorta like the Madden12 intro cut scenes are somewhat horrific because its a good idea but not for every game...they key is to mix it all up.

Locker Room scenes of players putting on their shoulder pad's

getting their cleats tied

watching the coach draw on the chalk board

player interviews from tv broadcasters

concession stands

vip ticket holders getting their seats

regular fans getting their seats

tv camera fly by's of fans, field, sidelines,etc

In-Game Scenes Scenes (before and after plays)

More scenes of players doing high 5's after a good play

Players getting ankles taped

Drinking Gatorade

Arguing with teammates

Arguing with opposing team players

Coaching personnel viewing the play field from the stadium upper level booths ....phoning coach on the field after a close play,etc

Group scuffles..not fighting but 3-4 players arguing after a rough play

After a TD ..more celebration cut scenes would be A HUGE BLESSING!! 3 players picking up their teammate that just scored the TD

Opposing coach slamming their playbook on the ground after giving up a touchdown.

Players picking off the grass from their face mask after being tackled hard

Bits of dirt and grass flying up after a hard tackle

NFL Legend's for specific teams watching tghe game from the sideline of the team they use to play for. NOTE: Not every game but once in a while show some NFL legends on the sidelines..obviously dressed in civilian clothing.

On hot sunny games have players in the spray mist machine cooling off

Players on the warm up bikes (yeah i know its been added before)

Players warming up kicking into nets on side lines (yeah i know its been added before)

Players saying "hi mom" into the camera with voice overlays, coaches talking to players,etc with voice overlays,etc

Half Time cut scenes/show:

Basically the stuff ESPN NFL2k5 did..just add a run down of all other games going on at the time. Some highlights of other games with actual video playing of these highlights. Have a 2-3 man crew for the half time show giving their input,etc on what changes needed to be done by each team,etc..make it just like the real deal.

Some fly by cam shots of fans,etc..players in locker room,etc

After Game cut scenes/show

Basically somewhat like half time show but not exactly the same. Interviews on the field with key players with voice overlays, run down of the day's scores, upcoming games,etc. Key player highlights from this game along with highlights of key players of other games,etc..stuff like that.

[burger13]

Quote: Originally Posted by Moegames

Some issues i want to point out to EA Developers that may be reading these important kind of threads such as mine. Yes time and time again some of us that really want good presentation try and try give some friendly advice to the developers only to be dismayed by the lackluster presentation. I had to bring up a beat'n dead horse but my oh my its been 7 years since i lasted played a NFL football game that had rock'n presentation that contributed to a fun playing game of pigskin...yup you guessed it.. ESPN NFL 2k5 was that gem of a game. It does not require a genius, rocket scientist or even a measly old college degree......

thank god you pointed out early on what an important thread yours is!! But my first question would be, if you haven't played an NFL game in 7 years, how do you know that none of this useless filler that you want isn't already in there??

[roadman]

You are preaching to the choir, but I don't see developers stopping by anymore like they did in the past.

Hopefully, it will get someone's attention again.

Some of the things are already in the game, though.

Players warming up on a bike, kickers kicking it in the net, post game show the took out the Extra Point and will be putting in a new one, players on the phone.

Sound technology will be improved on the next Madden, they have FIFA's sound technology.

Not sure how much group scruffles will get into the game or violent hits because the NFL looks that stuff over before it goes into the the game.

[TNT713]

Obviously, we all play for different reasons... I understand that 2K5 (not a player of the series) was hands down better in the presentation aspects, but as a 20 year vet of the Madden series, I care far less about presentation than I do about the game play.

In fact, I'm more likely to button thru or turn off presentation elements. Like any game that gets replayed hundreds of times, no matter what, the presentation will get stale. I prefer that the spectator experience when watching football on TV be separate and distinct from the coach/player experience. I use the field sounds and PA announcers as presentation elements - almost everything else gets turned off before I play the first game.

Many of use are hard-core game play guys and don't need cut scenes, replays, transitions, commentary, half-time shows, player introductions, etc to enjoy the game. We only need 22 men, a field, a ball, and a means to simulate the on-field portion of football.

Alas... This is the dilemma EA faces every year. They have to strike a balance between guys who want game play to be the focus of development while others want the presentation to be the focus.

Tough spot.

Later

[PacMan3000]

Really good thread, OP. Too bad you'll likely get bashed for it.

You have to be fair, though. As much as I like NFL 2K5, Madden 12 has some nice presentation touches.

Although horribly repetitive, I like how Collinsworth talks about the Player to Watch. He goes into depth and knows what he's talking about. And when you play a different team, you usually get new commentary depending on the player, so that keeps things fresh to me (especially if you sign a player that gets in-game specific commentary).

I like the close ups and stats of the QB when he runs onto the field.

I like the close-ups of the players in the huddle, or the fact that the Dawg Pound barks when you get a sack.

But I do agree with your points--they have to add an RPG element to Madden, and they have to make the game feel more alive. And that boils down to getting the "little things" done right.

Sideline reporters reporting on injuries. Guys getting hurt and coming back with arm or leg braces. CPU initiating trades. Analysts and fans breaking down and criticizing your draft or free agency moves. Owners putting the pressure on you to win games or be fired.

As it stands now, I have a hard to learning about major transactions and team moves in my current franchise because the game doesn't make it a priority to let you know that Mike Shanahan got fired, or that the Dolphins signed their #1 overall pick pick to a megawatt contract.

I've talked about this for years, but it all boils down to replay value, especially in single player/franchise mode. And to me, that comes down to seeing and hearing fresh new things in the game based on new, evolving situations.

So yes, we want better draft day atmosphere, but I also think gamers would like more of the little things--like if you trade an ailing Peyton Manning in your second year of franchise mode, when he comes back to play your Colts squad, that should be an consistent, on-going storyline that the commentators talk about as the game progresses. Or if your star RB goes down with an ACL injury in the wildcard of the playoffs, his ability to start the first week of the next season should be in serious doubt.

[adfletch71]

Madden presentation is stale compared too NFL2k5. It's looks better because of the upgraded graphics, but the overall package pales in comparison. The lack of a half-time show and real integration of stat categories, hurt madden in presentation. Trust, gameplay and presentation are equal. U can have great gameplay and bland presentation and the game will get trashed too, look at the SHOW. I really hope the focus on presentation next year, because intros and broadcast cameras don't cut it anymore.

[RGiles36]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Many of use are hard-core game play guys and don't need cut scenes, replays, transitions, commentary, half-time shows, player introductions, etc to enjoy the game. We only need 22 men, a field, a ball, and a means to simulate the on-field portion of football. Alas... This is the dilemma EA faces every year. They have to strike a balance between guys who want game play to be the focus of development while others want the presentation to be the focus.

I don't think there's any dilemma here -- there's no decision to be made. Sure, I'm a bit biased b/c I'm a presentation guy. But it's not like EA is taking some calculated risk; the standard for all sports games today is the implementation of broadcast presentation. It would be wise to continue in this direction.

They should provide appropriate on/off options to suit each gamer. But there's no dilemma at all. I think the Tiburon staff finally caught on last year as to what previously made their game pale in comparison to the 2K's and The Shows...

Quote: Originally Posted by PacMan3000

You have to be fair, though. As much as I like NFL 2K5, Madden 12 has some nice presentation touches.

I agree with your entire post PacMan. Very well said.

Like you, I think M12 does have nice presentation touches. The presentation (and default player models) are the reason I can't venture back to M11.

The key is to build on that. Audio presentation plays a major part in that, and it's already been well documented how poor it is this year.

I think the cutscenes this year are well put together, which you certainly couldn't say the past two years. I think the stat banners are presented well also. I usually gauge that by asking myself if I have to press pause in order to get the stats I want. With M12, I normally have a feel for how the players are performing with the banners alone. Post-TD stat updates FTW.

If I had to improve some things off the top of my head:

1) With the addition of hot/cold streaks, it's important to communicate to the gamer how the player played the previous week. When the QB's march on the field, we get the seasonal stats as a whole. That's good, that's how the pros do it. But that doesn't tell me that the QB snapped the prior week for 5TDs and a 140.2 passer rating. They've gotta seamlessly communicate why players find themselves on certain streaks from game to game. If done appropriately, I'll know that my RB is on a hot streak when the commentators say he went for 200 yards last week -- I won't have to press pause.

2) More TEAM stat banners. Let me know how my opponent's offense/defense stacks up with the rest of the league. That'll set expectations on whether I'm playing a stingy D or a potent offense.

3) When CPU players are injured, I need to know their timetable as well. I think this has been an oversight the past couple years. If I injure the CPU's QB, I'd like to know how long he's out for w/out pressing pause. Right now, we only get a prompt for user controlled injuries.

4) A better halftime and postgame show. I'd much rather see stats rather than the highlight package if I had to choose one.

5) I guess it falls under presentation, but we need a "Gameplanning" screen of sorts. It would be nice to have something like 2K5 had with the VIP thing. I want something that'll point out my opponents weaknesses without me having to scour through the depth chart. Tell me that the other team is hurt in the secondary. Tell me that the OLB is poor in coverage and I should look for ways to isolate him in space. Communicate that the QB has low awareness and gets confused by zone coverages.

^^I just want something in place that'll drive home the strategy of football, without me having to do so much manual work.

[Big FN Deal]

I honestly want anyone to correct be if I am wrong but I don't recall ever thinking " I hope ___ (sports game) fixes ___ this year and __ the next, before next-gen Madden. Whatever issues I had with whatever sports game, I expected those same issues NOT to be the exact same next year.

Maybe my recollection is off but this piecemeal approach, where presentation has to be addressed one year and gameplay the next, then online another year, etc, is something that has been propagated by EA. Madden 12 was the first time this gen that they improved almost the whole game and not just one area. Granted, online franchise got missed but I can understand that considering it's probably a big undertaking.

With all these confirmations of 'ghost teams", authenticity being the focus and a development team with some naturally hardcore football gamers, M13 should make the same rate of progression from M12, that M12 did from M11. Meaning, the areas of improvement should be multiple and whatever known problems in M12 shouldn't be returning in the exact same form in M13.

The NFL is a sum of it's parts and a NFL simulation game can not represent just some of those parts.