Are we heading towards a physics-based, data-driven football simulation game?

[guaps]

Recently there has been many posts about the many missing features and issues with Madden 11. A great number of these posts deal with [the lack of] defense and player interaction (tackling and OL/DL interaction etc.) This post is my theory of where Madden is heading, and when the series will arrive.

Before I start rambling, I have to stress that I am convinced that EA Tiburon is doing their very best. Ian Cummings seems like he is in tune with the community and want to create the most realistic Madden possible. But things take time. When you have to deliver on a yearly basis you need to make a roadmap and use a more incremental approach. This is what we have been seeing with the NHL, FIFA and NBA Elite series. Past editions of these games have been animation-driven, but they are now moving towards a physics-based, data-driven simulation.

Beside the fact that these games are being developed by EA Sports, Madden shares many things with the other series, most importantly the animation engine called ANT. The main problems with the animation engine across the board has been 1) while the animations look realistic, they did not respect real life physics, thus ended up looking unrealistic, 2) to compensate for the lack of certain animations warping/suctioning has been a big part of the gameplay for years.

To eliminate the above mentioned issues, the other series have introduced physics-based simulation as part of long term strategy. The first EA Sports game to feature physics-based gaming was Fight Night Round 4, which was in development for three years. It featured an improved collision detector and created much more realistic gameplay.

The most obvious thing Madden needs to address to create realistic gameplay is to remove two player animations. Many gamers, including myself, are discouraged by poor linemen interaction and unrealistic tackles. The days of players getting pulled/sucked/warped into two player animations, while others robotically bounce off has hopefully come to an end with Madden 11 and a more organic gameplay will see the light of day from Madden 12.

What would physics-based, data-driven mean for many of the current issues
With the new locomotion engine, EA has created some glaring holes on defense. The addition of "real physics" would create even bigger issues. EA Tiburon would therefore need to address this before they were to release the game to the public. This probably means that the defensive systems would need to be rebuild from ground up, which they are hopefully doing

Furthermore, strength and weight would suddenly come into play and gameplay as we know it will be change forever. Not only in terms of on-the-field tackling, but also how you play franchise mode. Take linemen interaction as an example. There is, as it is now, no real emphasis on weight and strength, but on blocking and block shedding skills. If weight and strength matters you'd have to account for this through the draft and free agency. Things like a 4-3 defensive end in a 3-4 system or a 275 lbs center in front of a 350 lbs nose tackle would automatically create a new kind of mismatch, based solely on weight and strength.

Potential stumbling block
Madden is unlike the other games as multiple collisions take place on every play and in all considerable situations. This happens when linemen interact and when people tackle each other. There are several issues that EA Tiburon has to account for compared with the other games. In Fight Night Round 4, NHL, FIFA and NBA Elite are mainly two to three players interacting at once. However, Backbreaker has already shown it can be done, but that game is base on entirely different engines. For Madden and its current engines this issue might prove to be the biggest stumbling block towards physics-based, data-driven simulation gameplay.

Overall, EA Tiburon has some issues that needs to be solved before Madden is ready for physics-based gameplay, but I do think they are heading there. Rebuilding the defensive system and providing realistic gameplay with 22 players interacting are only a few of the issues I can foresee with "real physics". I hope we will begin to see EA Tiburon implement physical aspects from Madden 12, but probably not full-fleshed physics-based gameplay before Madden 13 or 14.

I like to hear your opinions on "real physics" in Madden, what problems you envision and whether or not you think would be possible to implement "real physics" in the near future (Madden 12 or 13)?

[SA1NT401]

Real Phjysics are 100% needed in madden...Something that should have been implemented quite some time ago....

I honestly dont have much hope we will see anything like that on this generation of consoles.

[BezO]

Depends what time frame you're talking about. I think it will get there eventually, of course, but not soon.

Though I agree Ian & staff are doing their best, their priorities are different than most of ours. They have more important people to answer to... executives, their perceived fan base, ect. This is made obvious by additions I've never seen suggested while suggestions repeated year after year are ignored.

So, while many of us are crying for real time physics, I doubt EA sees it the way we do. I'm guessing they'll analyze some data and react from a Madden perspective.

[DaveDQ]

The only evidence we have that would give us an answer is what they have done with Madden so far; therefore, I'd say no, EA Sports doesn't seem to be concerned with a proper physics based football game.

However, f EA wants sales of this franchise to truly increase and not run about even to years passed, they will address this game's engine and incorporate an authentic and genuine physics based system. Gameflow/Gameplan, Gus Johnson and blah blah blah did nothing to make this game propel itself into groundbreaking sales. I'm certain that if they had a system where tackling was truly represented, this FOOTBALL game would produce a great means of hype that would booster sales and produce anticipation that no other "feature" has done or could do.

The only feature that sells this game is the NFL License. Outside of being able to boast the NFL and NFLPA, what exactly does this current version of Madden do that makes us say, "Now that...that will sell copies?" Should EA rely on the NFL's selling power? Sure. But, if they want this game to show better sales they will start truly innovating and compliment the NFL license with an appropriate representation of the sport.

[adembroski]

I imagine once we start seeing real time physics they'll take an approach similar to NHL by making a 3 year process.

Personally, I'm much more interested in physics based blocking than tackling. The Pro-Tak does a better job of mirroring NFL tackling than the engage/disengage blocking system does of mirroring NFL blocking. I can live with Pro-Tak for a year or two if blocking is addressed first.

I don't think there are any inherent "engine" problems that prevent the use of RTP. The phrase engine primarily comes from FPS gaming in which many games are built on top of the same basic code... an FPS "template", if you will. Madden is not built on a "template", but rather, it's a collection of customized, Madden specific systems that can be modified independently (as we've seen with run blocking and locomotion this year), though not without an effect on other systems (as Locomotion has had on defense this year).

One thing I'm not happy about with the existing locomotion system is that it wasn't done "all the way". There's still an arcadiness too it in order to maintain responsiveness. That responsiveness means that offensive players have a distinct advantage as the defense must react more quickly than in real life.

Personally, were I to create a "3 year plan" from here, I'd begin with expanding Real Assignment AI to all positions and situations, and then start looking into RTP. I believe comparing BackBreaker to NCAA 11 clearly shows that AI is a bigger roadblock to creating a great football game than is physics.

[BezO]

Quote: Originally Posted by adembroski

Personally, I'm much more interested in physics based blocking than tackling. The Pro-Tak does a better job of mirroring NFL tackling than the engage/disengage blocking system does of mirroring NFL blocking. I can live with Pro-Tak for a year or two if blocking is addressed first.

I could do without it for either. I think both can be addressed with more animations, better AI and more reliance on ratings.

Quote: Originally Posted by adembroski

One thing I'm not happy about with the existing locomotion system is that it wasn't done "all the way". There's still an arcadiness too it in order to maintain responsiveness. That responsiveness means that offensive players have a distinct advantage as the defense must react more quickly than in real life.

Yup!

Quote: Originally Posted by adembroski

Personally, were I to create a "3 year plan" from here, I'd begin with expanding Real Assignment AI to all positions and situations, and then start looking into RTP. I believe comparing BackBreaker to NCAA 11 clearly shows that AI is a bigger roadblock to creating a great football game than is physics.

And yup!

But we need animations. Engaged players need mobility & a bigger variety of outcomes, and there's still too much warping & suction.

[ch46647]

Quote: Originally Posted by adembroski

I imagine once we start seeing real time physics they'll take an approach similar to NHL by making a 3 year process. Personally, I'm much more interested in physics based blocking than tackling. The Pro-Tak does a better job of mirroring NFL tackling than the engage/disengage blocking system does of mirroring NFL blocking. I can live with Pro-Tak for a year or two if blocking is addressed first. I don't think there are any inherent "engine" problems that prevent the use of RTP. The phrase engine primarily comes from FPS gaming in which many games are built on top of the same basic code... an FPS "template", if you will. Madden is not built on a "template", but rather, it's a collection of customized, Madden specific systems that can be modified independently (as we've seen with run blocking and locomotion this year), though not without an effect on other systems (as Locomotion has had on defense this year). One thing I'm not happy about with the existing locomotion system is that it wasn't done "all the way". There's still an arcadiness too it in order to maintain responsiveness. That responsiveness means that offensive players have a distinct advantage as the defense must react more quickly than in real life. Personally, were I to create a "3 year plan" from here, I'd begin with expanding Real Assignment AI to all positions and situations, and then start looking into RTP. I believe comparing BackBreaker to NCAA 11 clearly shows that AI is a bigger roadblock to creating a great football game than is physics.

I agree with everything stated here Adem. However, I have been a fan of the Madden series since '92 and this game is flat out WAY behind where they should be. I know Ian said there is no real "engine" but this is EA's top game. I know you have played the new NHL demo. How can that game with a small "market" and I would assume much smaller dev team be light years ahead of Madden from a gameplay and atmosphere stand point?

The gameplay in the NHL series (apparently FIFA as well) is just flat out phenomenal! Everything flows great and the game is incredibly fun to play, even for people who arent fans of the sport. I just recently became a hockey fan about three years ago but the NFL is still my favorite by far. The introduction of physics in the "hitting" engine is unbeleivable. I know you stated Backbreaker's is better but just pop in NHL 10 after playing a few games of the demo and you literally can not go back to the animation based hits in NHL 10.

My point is I am a huge Madden fan and supporter. However, they really need to pick up their game in EVERY area. I loved that they added the new locomotion system but it wasn't completed making the defense the worst in this series in a long time. If Madden could be on par with NHL and FIFA (both under the EA umbrella) the game would be amazing. The community, myself included, has grown more and more disgruntled with this series. Obviously, no matter what we will always have the trolls and EA haters but I am not talking about them. I am talking about the people who grew up playing Madden and have been loyal supporters of them since the series began.

I have faith in Ian and believe he is doing the best he can to right this ship. I understand he is probably hancuffed by building on top of poor code (pushing that horrible game out in 06' for XBOX 360 is probably the biggest reason why the game is the way it is) and a lot of pressure from the CEO and other top people to make the game accessible to new gamers. But this game is just taking baby steps year after year IMO. Even when they do introduce something that peaks my interest (locomotion, gang tackles, Gus johnson) the feature is always only half done. I am starting to get the impression that we will not get the Madden we want until the new generation of consoles, whenever that may be. This generation of Madden will be considered the "dark days" of this franchise IMO.

[lofeazy]

Quote: Originally Posted by ch46647

The gameplay in the NHL series (apparently FIFA as well) is just flat out phenomenal! Everything flows great and the game is incredibly fun to play, even for people who arent fans of the sport. I just recently became a hockey fan about three years ago but the NFL is still my favorite by far. The introduction of physics in the "hitting" engine is unbeleivable. I know you stated Backbreaker's is better but just pop in NHL 10 after playing a few games of the demo and you literally can not go back to the animation based hits in NHL 10.

Just like you I was never a hockey fan.But after hearing about the NHL11 having physics in it I was going to give it a try.(I love the demo and went and preorder the game.)I love the hitting in it.The shooting seems random. Animations are great.To me this seems like its the best EA sports game.To me Madden never seem to have a randomness to it.Like NHL11 demo and BB.