Double Team Blocking

[Deltron]

What's the word on this feature for Madden11?

Can we finally use d-line stunting to take away running gaps by forcing a double team (whether 3-4 or 4-3)?

(i.e. Can we finally use realistic defensive fronts and run fits?)

[shttymcgee]

Quote: Originally Posted by Deltron

What's the word on this feature for Madden11? Can we finally use d-line stunting to take away running gaps by forcing a double team (whether 3-4 or 4-3)? (i.e. Can we finally use realistic defensive fronts and run fits?)

I would love to know why some people think you can "force" a double team. Double teams happen for one of two reasons, either there is not enough defenders in the box (think of a defense in a 6 man box vs 21 personnel) or it used to slow play which OL is going to block a LB (zone schemes). Yes, there certainly are some defenders who do a better job of holding their ground or controlling their area of responsibility (gap), but offenses will not commit two blockers to one defender if that means leaving another free.

Secondly, I feel that run fits should be a little better, due to the offensive assignment feature, but until there are truly force and fit/plug/alley/whatever you want to call it defenders implemented into each scheme, this is always going to be a little off.

[Deltron]

A lot of fronts are based on drawing a double team on the d-line level. Take the 4-3 Miami over for example. I've heard it straight from coaching experts that in that front, unless you can draw a double team somewhere on the d-line you are going to get run over. 2k allowed defenses to protect their LBs through stunting and shifting into fronts that attack gaps. Without the ability to draw a double when appropriate, this game is always going come up short in allowing realistic defensive strategy.

I'm hoping LBzrule sees this and chimes in.

[shttymcgee]

First of all, no one runs the true "miami 4-3" at the professional level. Not evern the Cowboys of the 90's with Jimmy Johnson as their coach (who designed the defense along with Tuberville) ran it. The reason is that the defense was designed with the wishbone in mind. By the way, the wishbone will NEVER double double team DL when running the triple option.

Just for History's sake, the Miami front helped stop the wishbone because of the block down/step-down techniques played by the DL, which in effect would always give a pull read for the QB, thus spilling him to the outside, where the more athletic defenders would be to stop the play on the perimeter. The Will LB in the old Miami front was more of a safety-type player.

Over defenses today really aren't the Miami front, because the Mike lines up in the strong A gap and the Will is responsible for fitting in the Weak B-Gap vs fast-flow weak.

Semantics aside, I agree that a very important cog of the modern over defense is the three technique tackle. A dominant three technique can make the running game extremely difficult, but that fact alone doesn't "force" a double team. For example, let's say the offense is in a normal pro formation and the defense is in an over front with even-shelled secondary structure. If the offense is passing with a six-man protection and the defense rushes 6, there will be no double team; there can't be. If the defense rushes 4, then there can be a double. It's numbers. The same thing holds true in the running game.

I do agree, that line play needs to be improved, but to expect that certain players get doubled (not combo'd) on every play is unrealistic.

[Deltron]

Quote: Originally Posted by shttymcgee

I do agree, that line play needs to be improved, but to expect that certain players get doubled (not combo'd) on every play is unrealistic.

Show me where I said this? I believe I said "when appropriate" -- meaning when the combination of offensive scheme and defensive scheme merits a double team occuring somewhere at the point of attack.

The entire point is that defensive schematics function in ways to protect their linebackers. With the 1-on-1 suction blocking techniques, running a 7-man front isn't feasible in this game if the offense knows what they are doing. In particuler, I like to user-control the linebacker. Having no protection from my dline because they don't demand attention from the oline renders that strategy moot. Most madden players use the safeties and are conditioned as such by the way the game's blocking engine operates.

Regarding the 4-3 Miami and double teams, I've heard it from someone who coached under Jimmy Johnson, and if you want me to dig up the quote I will. I've posted it before on this forum.

[LBzrule]

McGee is right in that a lot of the teams in the NFL run th Over defensive front, which definitely has some different principles at play. However, I think what they NEED to do is actually have more defensive fronts in Madden even ones that are not being ran now like the Miami (put it in generic playbooks). Also a lot of the problem is the DL on run plays still tend to sit back and catch linemen rather than firing gaps. There are no run fits in this game and that's a huge problem. When there are no run fits and your DL is letting the OL get in their chest and sitting back and catching you have to do more work than you should as a 2nd and 3rd level defender. Then add pro tak runs on top of that and you got a problem. I can say from the NCAA demo, there are at least 4 runs that are straight BEAST MODE. 10-12 yards a pop even if the D showed blitz and put everyone in the box..

[shttymcgee]

Quote: Originally Posted by Deltron

What's the word on this feature for Madden11? Can we finally use d-line stunting to take away running gaps by forcing a double team (whether 3-4 or 4-3)? (i.e. Can we finally use realistic defensive fronts and run fits?)

My point is that you can not force a double team.

[shttymcgee]

Quote: Originally Posted by LBzrule

McGee is right in that a lot of the teams in the NFL run th Over defensive front, which definitely has some different principles at play. However, I think what they NEED to do is actually have more defensive fronts in Madden even ones that are not being ran now like the Miami (put it in generic playbooks). Also a lot of the problem is the DL on run plays still tend to sit back and catch linemen rather than firing gaps. There are no run fits in this game and that's a huge problem. When there are no run fits and your DL is letting the OL get in their chest and sitting back and catching you have to do more work than you should as a 2nd and 3rd level defender. Then add pro tak runs on top of that and you got a problem. I can say from the NCAA demo, there are at least 4 runs that are straight BEAST MODE. 10-12 yards a pop even if the D showed blitz and put everyone in the box..

This is a big problem. I think there are two main reasons for this, and it has to do either with a lack of understanding how defense is played, or its just some sort of programming issue (inability to have if a-do b, if c-do d). Underneath zone defenders should always be involved first and foremost with stopping the run. LB's should not back up on the snap, instead they shoud step towards their gap and then confirm their key.

The other reason is that there is no ability whatsoever to use a 1/4 field safety. The quarters safety should actually be responsible for forcing the run and should thus play flat-footed at the snap, reacting to the release of the TE or the pad level of the Tackle, but in the game, the safety retreats no matter what, thus slowing down his involvement in the run fit.