The Problem With Pass Rushing and The Pocket

[tennesseetitans]

The pocket forms way too wide in the videos. It should be a lot tighter.

The entire problem with the pocket deals with what happens as the ball is snapped. The motion of the line coming off the ball is way too orchestrated. It's like everybody on the entire line is on a string. When the string is pulled, everybody on that side of the line moves at once, so the guards move at the same time the center does, when in reality there should be a little bit of a delay.

Furthermore, the defensive linemen are not anticipating the snap. In the NFL, defensive linemen are so athletic that a skilled pass rusher can have the tackle beat around the corner before the tackle is out of his stance. Also, the d-line's first move is straight up. They pause upright for a split second, reacting to line movement. The d-line should be trying to dictate what the o-line does, not vice versa. If d-linemen play like that in the NFL, they'd get manhandled due to a lack of leverage and momentum.


Look at how low Kampman comes out of his stance.



Gaining leverage, running the arc, and collapsing the pocket. This doesn't just happen on sacks.

The 4-3 defensive ends should be a lot quicker off the ball on passing downs and should immediately move upfield, bringing the tackles with them (any running lanes should open up underneath). Once they've gained the outside, they should collapse the pocket inside (running the arc) The 1 technique tackle should be blowing up the A-Gap (unless he's stunting), and the good ones should demand help from the guard (who should post him without sacrificing too much position. A center by himself is not going to block the Albert Haynesworths of the league. They just wouldn't be in position quick enough and with enough leverage). The 3 technique should be taking advantage of the seperation created by the end (opening up a lane between the guards and the tackles). Or he should eat up space to take pressure off the end. In the 4-3, at least one defensive linemen should be able to reach out and touch the QB even if it's right after the ball is thrown. The pressure is almost always there, even if it's not in your face.




This is right after the ball is snapped. Look at where the rightend is. This isn't the best example, since it lookes like the end and the tackle are engaging in an X-Stunt, which never fully developed since Warner hit dumped the ball to the running back.


But even though he missed the tackle, you can see #79, who started in the 3 technique, assumed the outside positioning.


The 3-4 would operate similarly, but the defensive linemen would be operating sort of like lead blockers for the linebackers, who would play a greater role in pass rushing. On most blitzes in most 3-4 defenses, the down linement would be engaging offensive linemen, opening up lanes for the linebackers to rush. But even then, there should be a stronger push upfield than what we are seeing in the videos.

Here's the Madden Pocket

This is the Titans, KVB is an elite defensive end. Tony Brown is an above average starter. Kearse is being driven downfield? No one is getting much pressure.


It looks like the pass rushing lane to the left is developing as it should, but there's no real pressure coming from the line.

[PantherBeast_OS]

Yea from the videos I have seen the pocket is a little to wide. But Ian and his crew is trying their best to make it the size of the real nfl pocket. This is only some much you can do with it. But the pocket can be a little small in size. But it's ok for this year.

[tennesseetitans]

Don't get me wrong, it's a huge improvement over last year. But it is so close to being right that it would be ashamed if it just felt like an advertisement for what it could've been and probably will be in the future. A start would be to make the defensive line react quicker and gain ground more aggressively (the code is probably not terribly involved but the side effects on other aspect of the game could pose an issue).

However, if something is not done, prepare to get picked apart online by quarterbacks throwing short and middle routes, and be prepared to see guys put it Pat White, Vince Young, and the like running through the huge lanes that develop in the middle of the pocket (where the 1 technique should be).

[D0NTSH0OTME]

My thread got closed, but since I have notcied the same problem I'll throw it in here.

Blocking Logic Still Broken

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Even after watching the new videos, it is obvious the blocking issues are not solved. On run plays, blockers routinely push their opponents the wrong way, shoving them further into the backfield and into the face of the runner; that is if they even engage their opponent at all. All too often a blocker just runs past the player lined up opposite of him, allowing that player to get into the backfield untouched. Linemen also tend to move horizontally once engaged, instead of pushing vertically like their real-life counterparts. Combined with the fact that linemen never seem to break out of their engagements, pass plays often cause the linemen to move horizontally across the line, therefore deforming the pocket.

In order to solve these problems, EA needs to do two things:

1. The offensive line's AI needs to be improved. In the NFL (before the snap), linemen read the defense's alignment, interpret the number of rushers, and call an audible that creates blocking assignments. The offensive line in Madden needs to be able to do the same.

2. Defensive linemen need to have gap assignments. For those of you that don't know defensive gaps are labled like this:

C----B----A---A----B---C : Gaps
--LT---LG---C---RG---RT : Offensive Line

At any level of football, a defensive linemen would be assigned to guard one of these gaps and would be expected to stay in it while rushing the quarterback or stopping the run (depending on the type of play). By staying in their gap assignment, defensive linemen minimize the number of lanes the opposing team can run through, thereby downplaying the effectiveness of a run play or a QB scramble.

In order for Madden to create realistic line interactions, all the factors that attribute to lineplay in the NFL need to be implemented, and the two things I mentioned above are extremely important to that.

[Thirty3 Degrees]

Fix the pocket, run animations, and the ******** AI.

That's what I need in order to buy Madden 10.

[tennesseetitans]

Quote: Originally Posted by D0NTSH0OTME

Even after watching the new videos, it is obvious the blocking issues are not solved. On run plays, blockers routinely push their opponents the wrong way, shoving them further into the backfield and into the face of the runner; that is if they even engage their opponent at all. All too often a blocker just runs past the player lined up opposite of him, allowing that player to get into the backfield untouched. Linemen also tend to move horizontally once engaged, instead of pushing vertically like their real-life counterparts. Combined with the fact that linemen never seem to break out of their engagements, pass plays often cause the linemen to move horizontally across the line, therefore deforming the pocket. In order to solve these problems, EA needs to do two things: 1. The offensive line's AI needs to be improved. In the NFL (before the snap), linemen read the defense's alignment, interpret the number of rushers, and call an audible that creates blocking assignments. The offensive line in Madden needs to be able to do the same. 2. Defensive linemen need to have gap assignments. For those of you that don't know defensive gaps are labled like this: C----B----A---A----B---C : Gaps --LT---LG---C---RG---RT : Offensive Line At any level of football, a defensive linemen would be assigned to guard one of these gaps and would be expected to stay in it while rushing the quarterback or stopping the run (depending on the type of play). By staying in their gap assignment, defensive linemen minimize the number of lanes the opposing team can run through, thereby downplaying the effectiveness of a run play or a QB scramble. In order for Madden to create realistic line interactions, all the factors that attribute to lineplay in the NFL need to be implemented, and the two things I mentioned above are extremely important to that.

I totally agree. I actually play some offensive line at my high school, even though my heart has always been in defense. And that's how we do things, based on who's in the numbered gap and the like. I can't imagine it'd be terribly difficult to code. I've played with guys that failed 7/8 classes but could carry out blocking assignments.

Now in the NFL, some teams use different blocking logic, but just to have a basic and then a zone would be more than adequate. It would make the running game in general much more realistic and interactive (finding lanes and cutbacks). Maybe for M11...

[iBlievN5]

i heard they made it too large on purpose in order to ease the users into sim play.

[JMD]

Ian and Co. are already addressing the pass rush issue:
http://www.operationsports.com/forum...tice-mode.html

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