Lets Dialouge - Ian's gangtackling challenge revisited

[StonesRunIt]

Remember this post by LBzrule?

Quote: Originally Posted by LBzrule

Ian, I am answering your request for some video of 2k gang tackling. I'll be using 2k5 today to show some things. I might get some 2k8 tackles up tomorrow or this weekend. I want to post your complete statement here. Given the antagonism between fans of both games and the disheartened 2k fans, and the Madden fans calling for EA to step up a little bit because it's next gen, this is a bold statement. Now I don't point that out as a negative. I point it out because, I like the boldness. No tip toeing here. I like that. But I have some inquiries. First, could you go a little bit into the implementation. Second, I have provided some video clips taken today from 2k5, that show something different than I experience in the tackling mechanics and engine in Madden up to this point. I say up to this point because 09 is a cloud of mystery for me right now until I play it. So let's look at some video. Video 1 Frame 1: Heeh just gotta point out I'm playing my favorite position here which I have not been able to play since 2k5 due to frustration. And that's not just Madden NCAA, I don't like it in 2k8 either but that's for another discussion. As the video plays I take Lewis and get to the outside. Now look at how I engage and get off the FB. No other game has allowed me to do that at MLB. Generally once I get touched it's over for that player. But anyways. Let's look at the tackling. The DE does a good job of playing contain and forcing Alexander back inside. I am there to meet him with Ray Ray. I make a waist tackle due to the angle but Alexander continues to fight and Demps comes over the top to finish. Thus there is a sense of teamwork here between me on the one hand and my A.I defenders on the other. Frame 2: Ed and Ray Same play Strong I HB toss. Reed crash the alley and is the first defender on the back. While it looks simultaneous it wasn't. Reed hit him first then I latched on. The key also on this is 2k gives me an assist on that something that has not been replicated. Video 2 Frame 1: Reed and Demps In this frame I control Lewis again but I miss Alexander . Anyways notice what happens. My DE (Weaver) again does a great job of stretching the run out but falls behind Alexander but makes a diving attempt at his feet and actually slows him down without tackling him. From my experience, in madden this would have been a tackle by the DE - suction tackling. Anyways, Alexander advances the ball. I switch over to Reed and grab ahold of him. While I grab ahold of him my A.I teammate comes in latches on and moves the runner out of bounds. Again, I haven't gotten this sense in Madden. Either Alexander (1) breaks my tackle, (2) I tackle Alexander with Reed, (3) Demps latches on to Alexander at the same time I do and the animation sequence plays out. But notice neither one of those happen here. I engage Alexander and have to hang on, he almost breaks out but Demps stops him. Frame 2: Weaver and Lewis - Clearest Demonstration IMO. To me this is the clearest demonstration and difference visually from 2k style tackling and Madden. Weaver again does a good job of stretching the run to the sideline. This time he gets off his block and grabs the runner from behind. He jumps on Alexander's back and begins to take him down. Now in Madden right now, this animation would be over. But look at what I do with Lewis. I come in and get in on the tackle. This is possible because even though Alexander is going to get tackled by Weaver, the animation is left open. It's not fixed. I could have just as easily with Lewis here chosen not to do anything but I chose to get in on the action. Again, I haven't gotten this sense in Madden/NCAA. Let me just say something quickly before people start jumping in. This is not a thread to bash Madden/NCAA. I'm answer Ian's request that he made on Madden Mania. This should be an open dialogue and not resort to bashing. He says the implementation is basically the same. Secondly he says he wants to beat 2k5/2k8 tackling. Frankly, I want you to beat it because if you beat that and then amp up the interaction on all levels we are playing football now. So without further delay, let's talk.

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...teraction.html


Ian was challenged to recreate and top the 2k5 gangtackles. He accepted and was later forced to open another thread to announce.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA

Hello everyone. I am here to admit defeat to 2k's gang tackling system. ... ... For Now

I was curious if he and Pro-Tak would like to take another shot at it. What do you say Ian, is Madden 20-10 man enough?

[The Lob Mob]

[TombSong]

I think the New Madden implementation is better in regards that more men can be involved.

Everything else(so far) 2K is still better. It looks more natural and believeable(even with some of the model clipping going on)

I dont know who or how 2k did their animations but who or however they did it, its still has not been replicated.

Do they have a better mo cap machine ?

[Netherscourge]

Wait a second - can "dialogue" be used as a verb?

[djordan]

Entiel that has nothing to do with this post...lol

[Netherscourge]

Quote: Originally Posted by TombSong

I think the New Madden implementation is better in regards that more men can be involved. Everything else(so far) 2K is still better. It looks more natural and believeable(even with some of the model clipping going on) I dont know who or how 2k did their animations but who or however they did it, its still has not been replicated. Do they have a better mo cap machine ?

I don't think it's a motion capture thing, it's a code-algorithm thing.

They designed a very flexible tackling system, that allowed for several branching possibilities.

I was playing 2K5 last night and lots of things happened that I haven't seen in a Madden game yet...


1. 1 tackler grabs a ball carrier's leg, slowing him down - then I run up with my charge meter maxed out and SMACK the ball carrier with a diving tackle. The ball carrier got flatten and Suzy Kolber was checking up on him a couple plays later

2. In the video above, a tackler wraps up a player but he doesn't go down right away - another player comes along and strips the ball out of his hands. That's freaking awesome because it's not just a random number generator making the guy fumble (at least not visually anyway) - you see another defender show up and "cause" the fumble.


It's the code, not the motion capture. 2K5's tackling-engine was astoundingly awesome. [And it's 5 freaking years old!] Those guys went in and came up with a very robust system that allowed for tons of possibilities that were represented VISUALLY in the game, not just using a SIM formula that created turnovers or whatever with random rolls of dice.

Now, looking at the new Madden '10 Pro-Tak system, it has some promise. They managed to get up to 9 players involved, which is good. And Hit-Stick functionality being able to affect the pile is good too. But they need to allow for some random results - like getting stripped in the pile, or someone actually knocking the ball carrier FREE from the pile so he can keep going while the rest of the pile falls flat on their faces. I think that's what they're putting into it at the moment - again, which is good.

It all comes down to making it look real AND allowing for multiple, random results - this keeps it fresh and interesting.

Good code combine with accurate, matching visuals makes it work.

[ngoulding]

Quote: Originally Posted by Netherscourge

Wait a second - can "dialogue" be used as a verb?

There are English all over the country crying at this heading

[Cryolemon]

Quote: Originally Posted by Netherscourge

Wait a second - can "dialogue" be used as a verb?

Well, he used it as one, and you knew what he meant,so I'd say "yes".