Schemes, Coaching, and Players Learning

[canes21]

How would the community feel if EA were to take the existing schemes functionality in the game and expanded on it. This would include building the schemes out further, allowing more customization on the user side of things, and implementing mechanics within the game that allowed coaches to teach their schemes at varying levels of efficiency while the players learned the schemes at varying levels of speed.

Building out the schemes further means that they include things such as core concepts to help each scheme be more unique, tendencies both with play calling and personnel usage, aggressiveness, etc. This would help each scheme stand out more from one another than the current playbook system allows for. Instead of having individual plays being rated, you'd now see that a certain OC's scheme has them in 11 personnel 88% of the time and has inside zone and trap as their 2 core run concepts.

Allowing more customization would mean the user can create schemes from scratch, assign schemes(including created schemes) to coaches, pick what archetypes are preferred in each scheme, customize the tendencies for each scheme, etc.

Implementing mechanics that allow coaches to teach their schemes is a way to not only enhance the schemes system in the game but to also give the coach abilities even more depth to them. Now coaches have varying levels of teaching their scheme to their players meaning an elite teacher can get their players up to speed significantly faster which will have multiple benefits that we'll touch on next.

Players learning schemes at varying levels of speed is similar to what NFL Head Coach had back in the day. Players now have to come in and learn concepts and plays. A true freshman doesn't just show up and know the playbook inside and out like this game indicates. Players in real life, even at the NFL level, have to learn playbooks. They have to learn the language, why concepts are run the way they are, etc. Having a mechanic in the game similar to what Head Coach had would mean a players with a low comfort level in a system, like a true freshman as an example, might run the wrong route, block the wrong gap, drop to the wrong zone, etc. A QB with a low comfort in the system may not be able to make all pre-snap adjustments.

Obviously coaches needing to teach and players needing to learn schemes could be a polarizing feature, so I think in an idea world where this was introduced there would be toggles so those that have zero interest in that kind of depth can continue playing the game how it is now.

I do think that expanding the schemes feature like outlined above and introducing more coaching ability and player scheme learning would give dynasty mode a significant increase in the level of depth the mode has. It would team and staff management that much more important, which I always see as a good thing in games like this.

If player abilities were introduced for these mechanics as well, you could see some standout recruits could be quick learners leading to them coming in and being comfortable in a system as a true freshman allowing them to have an immediate impact. On the flip side, a 3-star average joe QB without any boosted learning ability may not be ready to take over the offense until their 2nd or 3rd year in the system.

It would introduce more dynamic "storylines" into your dynasty mode. Imagine you're 6-0 and have a big rivalry game on the road coming up but your starting QB is hurt for the week and you're stuck playing the redshirt freshman who isn't too comfortable in the system. Not only do you have to deal with their homefield advantage in that game, you may also be playing with a limited playbook as they may only really know 5-6 concepts well meaning half your playbook is essentially useless.

The pride you'd feel winning that game could be second to none. The pain you'd feel losing it leaving you wondering how things would have gone differently if your starter was healthy may haunt you the rest of that season or more.

And, with schemes getting more depth to them, EA could really take it further by bringing in a true simple but effective scouting system and assistant coach input system allowing you to see what looks and concepts your opponents run in various situations, and, that knowledge would be shared with you live in your games. An example is you saw in the scouting report that your opponent runs X concept out of Y look 80% of the time in 3rd and 4 or shorter. When that situation occurs, you either remember it or your virtual DC in game reminds you of it and you make a playcall based off that tendency of theirs.

The gameday chess match would reach a level it never has before if a system like this were implemented and expanded on.

I know us here on OS are more of a supposed niche group in the sports gaming world, so I wanted to see how the community felt about additions like these in general. Obviously they are my ideas, so I would welcome them with open arms, but I am curious to see how you all feel about any of the ideas and what you may like to see done a bit differently than what I outlined.

Sorry for typing up a novel here, but for any that read the entire thing, I do appreciate you taking the time to do so.

[DjPerzik]

This would be absolutely awesome and definitely a reason for me to buy the next game.

[PDuncanOSU]

I really like this idea for dynasty mode. Would definitely need to flesh out the schemes though. The extent that Lincoln Riley uses GT counter in his version of the Air Raid is quite a bit different than most other Air Raid teams for example. One teams 4-3 defensive scheme could base out of single-high and play a lot of cover-3 and cover-1. Another team could also base out of 4-3 but run mostly cover 4 match out of 2-high shells.

There could be an offseason step where you have to set your playbook for the next season. Your team would then learn those concepts and plays during the offseason. Any plays or concepts added after that point would take time for your team to learn. Maybe each week of the season you would have the option to add 1 new concept each on offense and defense.

Some thought would need to go into the details of this though. For example: say I have Power out of I-form as a base concept in my offense, would adding single-back power out of shotgun count as adding a new concept? What if I then added Power Read (aka Inverted Veer)?

[mate04]

This would be amazing. It’s sad an NFL Coach style experience is almost a pipe dream for these games 15 years after release. I’m a big scheme guy and love to make new playbooks to run in dynasty. Play calling and developing a scheme is a thing that should be encouraged, not just having a playbook of 10 different run schemes and loads of passing concepts. But unfortunately most want a casual experience where they can just select a playbook and run the jumbled money plays over and over again.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[canes21]

Quote: Originally Posted by PDuncanOSU

I really like this idea for dynasty mode. Would definitely need to flesh out the schemes though. The extent that Lincoln Riley uses GT counter in his version of the Air Raid is quite a bit different than most other Air Raid teams for example. One teams 4-3 defensive scheme could base out of single-high and play a lot of cover-3 and cover-1. Another team could also base out of 4-3 but run mostly cover 4 match out of 2-high shells. There could be an offseason step where you have to set your playbook for the next season. Your team would then learn those concepts and plays during the offseason. Any plays or concepts added after that point would take time for your team to learn. Maybe each week of the season you would have the option to add 1 new concept each on offense and defense. Some thought would need to go into the details of this though. For example: say I have Power out of I-form as a base concept in my offense, would adding single-back power out of shotgun count as adding a new concept? What if I then added Power Read (aka Inverted Veer)?

The type of identity you are talking about in the first paragraph is exactly why I want a feature like this. Your air raid example is a good one. Another is two teams based around cove 3 but Team A sits in 2-high looks all game and likes to supplement their base cover 3 with quarters and man blitzes. Team B sits in 1-high the majority of the time and mixes in cover 1 with fire zones as their typical pressure looks.

That's just a simple example of two defenses based out of 4-2-5 going with cover 3 bases but operating different. They may even lean on different match concepts at varying amounts adding another difference and that may cause them to go after slightly different players at a few spots.

This type of depth could be expanded with and supplemented by having a basic scouting mechanic in the game showing you each team's scheme, their core concepts, their tendencies, and other general analytics giving you an idea of how to attack them and how they plan to attack you.

Mix in the already existing adaptive AI and you can get certain teams reacting to your team's scouting report differently week to week, quarter to quarter, drive to drive making the chess-like experience that much more deep and fun.

With regards to the idea of how to implement schemes, here's an outline of how I think it could be implemented.

It's a pre-season task like setting up your recruiting board or creating your custom schedule.

When clicking on said task you're shown a listing of all existing schemes, either created by EA or yourself, plus you're given an option to create a new scheme.

When looking at each individual scheme you are presented with a brief description of the scheme, the positional archetypes, the # of core concepts, the # of formations/sets included, a bar showing the general simplicity/complexity of the scheme(based off the concept and formation/set count), plus timing expectations for implementing the scheme.

Factors that influence the timing expectations are the schemes complexity level, the coaching staff's teaching abilities if they have them, your players' awareness ratings, your players' traits boosting their learning if they have any, and the existing player familiarity with the concepts of the scheme.

What this means is if you take a very simple air raid scheme that has 7 core concepts and 5 formations, you can probably have the majority of your roster comfortable with the majority of the playbook in week 1. The downside is your scheme is so simple you may suffer from that if you don't have the talent level to just out execute everyone on a weekly basis.

On the flip side, if you going with a more complex scheme the timing expectations may show it will take til year 3 before your team is very comfortable running the scheme. You'll have hiccups in years 1 and 2 as you implement the scheme, but if you keep the roster turnover to a minimum and develop your players within the scheme, in year 3 you'll potentially have a complex scheme that is clicking and is hard for anyone to stop as you can do so many things efficiently.

Each pre-season you'll get to look at this scheme screen, but if you continue running the same scheme, your players will benefit as they will retain what they learn week to week, year to year. This can lead to things like having a less talented veteran team that is really efficient at what they do making them a tougher out than normal for you or the CPU. On the other hand, you or the CPU may have a very talented but very young defense that has a lot of blown assignments making them inconsistent, but by the end of the year things may be clicking better and heading into next year they will be playing significantly better ball and their talent level will be able to shine more.

Each team will have a unique identity year to year, week to week only giving the dynasty mode more depth to it.

What this can also influence is the transfer portal. If you or the CPU are looking at bringing in a one year rental at a certain position their familiarity with your scheme on that side of the ball can influence both their interest in your team and whether you/the CPU will go through with pursuing that player.

This would be something you'd uncover as you scout a player along with any learning traits they have. This would help you and the CPU decide if a player is familiar enough with your system or can potentially learn the new system fast enough to be worth bringing in. This gives recruiting both HS and portal players have more depth to it as you may want to potentially put more effort into getting better scheme fits, finding players that can learn more efficiently, etc. Or, you may run a Leach style offense that can be taught in 1 week and a player's learning ability won't really influence your recruiting decisions at all.

Quote: Originally Posted by mate04

This would be amazing. It’s sad an NFL Coach style experience is almost a pipe dream for these games 15 years after release. I’m a big scheme guy and love to make new playbooks to run in dynasty. Play calling and developing a scheme is a thing that should be encouraged, not just having a playbook of 10 different run schemes and loads of passing concepts. But unfortunately most want a casual experience where they can just select a playbook and run the jumbled money plays over and over again. Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

Exactly. This is why I think making it a toggle would be ideal, but for those of us wanting a deeper experience where we have to put more thought into what schemes we're running and how that will impact our roster management, I don't know of a set of features that could expand this area of the game more. There's not too much outside of an Athletic Director mode that I think could be added to dynasty that could give it as much depth.

[mate04]

Quote: Originally Posted by canes21

The type of identity you are talking about in the first paragraph is exactly why I want a feature like this. Your air raid example is a good one. Another is two teams based around cove 3 but Team A sits in 2-high looks all game and likes to supplement their base cover 3 with quarters and man blitzes. Team B sits in 1-high the majority of the time and mixes in cover 1 with fire zones as their typical pressure looks. That's just a simple example of two defenses based out of 4-2-5 going with cover 3 bases but operating different. They may even lean on different match concepts at varying amounts adding another difference and that may cause them to go after slightly different players at a few spots. This type of depth could be expanded with and supplemented by having a basic scouting mechanic in the game showing you each team's scheme, their core concepts, their tendencies, and other general analytics giving you an idea of how to attack them and how they plan to attack you. Mix in the already existing adaptive AI and you can get certain teams reacting to your team's scouting report differently week to week, quarter to quarter, drive to drive making the chess-like experience that much more deep and fun. With regards to the idea of how to implement schemes, here's an outline of how I think it could be implemented. It's a pre-season task like setting up your recruiting board or creating your custom schedule. When clicking on said task you're shown a listing of all existing schemes, either created by EA or yourself, plus you're given an option to create a new scheme. When looking at each individual scheme you are presented with a brief description of the scheme, the positional archetypes, the # of core concepts, the # of formations/sets included, a bar showing the general simplicity/complexity of the scheme(based off the concept and formation/set count), plus timing expectations for implementing the scheme. Factors that influence the timing expectations are the schemes complexity level, the coaching staff's teaching abilities if they have them, your players' awareness ratings, your players' traits boosting their learning if they have any, and the existing player familiarity with the concepts of the scheme. What this means is if you take a very simple air raid scheme that has 7 core concepts and 5 formations, you can probably have the majority of your roster comfortable with the majority of the playbook in week 1. The downside is your scheme is so simple you may suffer from that if you don't have the talent level to just out execute everyone on a weekly basis. On the flip side, if you going with a more complex scheme the timing expectations may show it will take til year 3 before your team is very comfortable running the scheme. You'll have hiccups in years 1 and 2 as you implement the scheme, but if you keep the roster turnover to a minimum and develop your players within the scheme, in year 3 you'll potentially have a complex scheme that is clicking and is hard for anyone to stop as you can do so many things efficiently. Each pre-season you'll get to look at this scheme screen, but if you continue running the same scheme, your players will benefit as they will retain what they learn week to week, year to year. This can lead to things like having a less talented veteran team that is really efficient at what they do making them a tougher out than normal for you or the CPU. On the other hand, you or the CPU may have a very talented but very young defense that has a lot of blown assignments making them inconsistent, but by the end of the year things may be clicking better and heading into next year they will be playing significantly better ball and their talent level will be able to shine more. Each team will have a unique identity year to year, week to week only giving the dynasty mode more depth to it. What this can also influence is the transfer portal. If you or the CPU are looking at bringing in a one year rental at a certain position their familiarity with your scheme on that side of the ball can influence both their interest in your team and whether you/the CPU will go through with pursuing that player. This would be something you'd uncover as you scout a player along with any learning traits they have. This would help you and the CPU decide if a player is familiar enough with your system or can potentially learn the new system fast enough to be worth bringing in. This gives recruiting both HS and portal players have more depth to it as you may want to potentially put more effort into getting better scheme fits, finding players that can learn more efficiently, etc. Or, you may run a Leach style offense that can be taught in 1 week and a player's learning ability won't really influence your recruiting decisions at all. Exactly. This is why I think making it a toggle would be ideal, but for those of us wanting a deeper experience where we have to put more thought into what schemes we're running and how that will impact our roster management, I don't know of a set of features that could expand this area of the game more. There's not too much outside of an Athletic Director mode that I think could be added to dynasty that could give it as much depth.

I love how forum users can fully flush out a great idea for this game. I’ve had my own ideas too like the lack of weekly game prep. I want a scouting report of my opponent first and foremost. A fleshed out practice system would be awesome. Choose maybe some drills to boost players in certain areas that week. Tackling drills, extra film, or conditioning could be ideas. Or be put into certain play calling situations like red zone or 2 minute. Maybe actual team period where on offense or defense you go against a scout team. Just like madden practice squad you can assign lower rated guys to this to develop them over the season(higher star guys might get pissed and want to leave so watch out). They will run the other team’s playbook but only a handful of plays(or maybe more plays based off a coaches ability to scout the opponent hmmm…) but obviously won’t exactly like the opponent as low rated scout guys will be running it. But we can only dream.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[canes21]

Quote: Originally Posted by mate04

I love how forum users can fully flush out a great idea for this game. I’ve had my own ideas too like the lack of weekly game prep. I want a scouting report of my opponent first and foremost. A fleshed out practice system would be awesome. Choose maybe some drills to boost players in certain areas that week. Tackling drills, extra film, or conditioning could be ideas. Or be put into certain play calling situations like red zone or 2 minute. Maybe actual team period where on offense or defense you go against a scout team. Just like madden practice squad you can assign lower rated guys to this to develop them over the season(higher star guys might get pissed and want to leave so watch out). They will run the other team’s playbook but only a handful of plays(or maybe more plays based off a coaches ability to scout the opponent hmmm…) but obviously won’t exactly like the opponent as low rated scout guys will be running it. But we can only dream. Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

You're preaching to the choir. If the game had schemes more fleshed out as well as coaches and their tendencies and a scouting and practice system was in place that allowed us to setup how we wanted our teams to practice and that also included going against your scout team truly running a representation of what you're going to see next gameday and the X's and O's in the game was at a point where that kind of practice felt necessary, then I'd be in gaming heaven.

I know not everyone wants a game like that and it is completely understandable why some people want to get in game after game as quickly as possible. However, if I could sit here and feel the grind from Sunday to Friday and Saturday felt like a reward for all the work I put in, that's the kind of dynasty experience I want.

[DjPerzik]

Im doing something like this myself, where I limit myself to basic concepts my first year at a team or when the team has a freshman QB. Then as the years progress and my team has more experience I implement variations on the first-year concepts (for example adding orbit motion-plays or in addition to a basic mesh I add mesh plays with wheel routes and motion) as well as some new stuff. If I somehow end up starting a freshman QB or WRs in a given year then it’s back to the basics again.

I do the same with run plays. I start with either gap or zone and as my OL gets more experienced I add some other stuff.

RPOs the same idea: start of with basic Alert Bubble and/or Slant and as my QB gets more experience I add more stuff, mostly RPO Read plays.

Would be cool if the game had a mechanic for scheme building and learning.