What is EA doing? (M24 defensive audible behavior post-Oct update)

[Coach Captures]

So now you can’t audible from a 23 dime to a 23will dime. It has the same personnel! But we already have playbooks that have set defensive formations that don’t allow you to fit an offensive formation. Now, the ones that did have some flexibility don’t. I mean what the heck. The offense which is OP anyway can come out in any formation it wants and audible. Example: flex a TE. Thus you’d think if you were in a 23 dime you’d have the ability to audible to a 23 will and for the formation. But now you can’t because of this patch. Root cause is freaking o line interactions it makes its way into defensive play calling. Never attack the root cause, just apply a band aid and break something else. Every year, same crap.

[CM Hooe]

Quote: Originally Posted by Coach Captures

So now you can’t audible from a 23 dime to a 23will dime. It has the same personnel!

I'm not entirely sure how Madden is checking personnel on defense for purposes of audibles following today's title update, but just looking at the playbook art of each formation it looks like the game might think Dime 23 has 2 RDTs, 2 RDEs, and 1 SUBLB, whereas Dime 23 Will has 1 RDT, 2 RDEs, and 2 SUBLBs.

In which case, no they aren't the same personnel.

[Coach Captures]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

I'm not entirely sure how Madden is checking personnel on defense for purposes of audibles following today's title update, but just looking at the playbook art of each formation it looks like the game might think Dime 23 has 2 RDTs, 2 RDEs, and 1 SUBLB, whereas Dime 23 Will has 1 RDT, 2 RDEs, and 2 SUBLBs. In which case, no they aren't the same personnel.

It is the same because I’ve done it for years.

[CM Hooe]

Quote: Originally Posted by Coach Captures

It is the same

No, they are not the same personnel.

Dime 2-3 is a four-down over front with two interior defensive linemen (RDTs), two defensive edge rushers (RLE / RRE), one off-ball linebacker (SUBLB), and six defensive backs (one of which is SS2 instead of CB4, if I recall correctly).


Dime 2-3 Will is a 3-down odd front with one interior defensive linemen (RDT), two defensive edge rushers (RLE / RRE), two off-ball linebackers (SUBLBs), and six defensive backs.

Quote:

because I’ve done it for years.

The title update changed defensive audible behavior to account for personnel, similar to how offensive audibles have worked for the past several years now to facilitate formation shifts. Previously, defensive audibles in Madden did not account for on-field personnel, rather they allowed a user to audible to any formation in a given set regardless of any formation subs. From the update notes:

Quote: Originally Posted by EA Sports

Previously users were only able to audible to different defensive sets within a defensive formation but we were not looking at substitutions that were made prior to the audible. Users will no longer be able to audible to a Set that puts their substituted Safety on the Defensive Line. Users will have the ability to audible from Nickel to Dime if they have substituted a Linebacker with a Defensive Back which they could not do before.

The change today specifically prevents a user from exploiting the game by calling Dime 2-3 Will with a safety placed at SUBLB, then audibling to Dime 2-3 which would force that safety down to defensive end.

[Coach Captures]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

No, they are not the same personnel. Dime 2-3 is a four-down over front with two interior defensive linemen (RDTs), two defensive edge rushers (RLE / RRE), one off-ball linebacker (SUBLB), and six defensive backs (one of which is SS2 instead of CB4, if I recall correctly). Dime 2-3 Will is a 3-down odd front with one interior defensive linemen (RDT), two defensive edge rushers (RLE / RRE), two off-ball linebackers (SUBLBs), and six defensive backs. The title update changed defensive audible behavior to account for personnel, similar to how offensive audibles have worked for the past several years now to facilitate formation shifts. Previously, defensive audibles in Madden did not account for on-field personnel, rather they allowed a user to audible to any formation in a given set regardless of any formation subs. From the update notes: The change today specifically prevents a user from exploiting the game by calling Dime 2-3 Will with a safety placed at SUBLB, then audibling to Dime 2-3 which would force that safety down to defensive end.

I guess I’m not understanding the “23” in each defense. 2 down lineman, 3 linebackers. It’s the way everything is labeled. It’s about the personnel. Look at 34 odd and 34 over Ed. They audible and it’s the same concept. Also, a 34 even with a SS sub will audible into a triple nickel. So explain that with the same logic used above. Thanks

[Gritblitzer]

I'll preface this with: I plan on getting the names of the audibles/formations later this evening..

I've been playing since the update and my audibles are ALL screwed up. When I swap formations in several different set audibles, my DT1 decides to run backwards and move to the FS position, while my FS decides to come up and play DT. It wasn't like this prior and has only been doing this since the changes made. Not sure why it's doing this.

I will make sure I get the formations and what audibles are causing this, but I've yet to find a fix for it. It's kind of maddening.

[CM Hooe]

Quote: Originally Posted by Coach Captures

I guess I’m not understanding the “23” in each defense. 2 down lineman, 3 linebackers. It’s the way everything is labeled. It’s about the personnel. Look at 34 odd and 34 over Ed. They audible and it’s the same concept. Also, a 34 even with a SS sub will audible into a triple nickel. So explain that with the same logic used above. Thanks

The "23" is holdover bad naming convention for defensive personnel from much older Madden games which more rigidly define defensive ends as only defensive ends and outside linebackers as only outside linebackers; i.e. older Madden games didn't support the concept of an edge defender.

In those older Madden games, "23" would indeed refer to 2 DLs and 3 LBs on the field, and multiple variants of the same formation were needed to accommodate "4-3" teams and "3-4" teams. Modern NFL defenses play multiple fronts and no one bases out of just 4-3 or 3-4 anymore. The distinction was entirely to allow teams EA Sports designated as "3-4" teams to place outside linebackers on the field in pass rushing situations, as opposed to defensive ends.

The addition of the RLE / RRE / RDT depth chart positions and the way they were shoe-horned into the existing playbooks makes this more confusing than it should be, and also makes some defensive formations redundant. For example, there's no reason for both Nickel 2-4 Dbl Mug and Nickel Double Mug to be in the game anymore, they are the exact same formation with the exact same personnel (2 edge rushers, 2 interior defensive linemen, two off-ball linebackers, five defensive backs). However, the two formations were necessary in older Madden games which didn't have the RLE / RRE / RDT depth chart positions, as they had to offer ways for 3-4 teams to put their OLBs on the field in pass-rushing situations.

You'll notice how shoe-horned the RLE / RRE / RDT positions are the moment you attempt to use right-stick package substitutions in any Nickel or Dime set. Any position which normally populates a RLE / RRE / RDT / SUBLB / SLCB reverts to however that formation populated personnel prior to the addition of those depth chart positions when package substitutions are used. For example, package subs in Nickel Double Mug would put LE / RE / DT1 / DT2 back into the game, while package subs in Nickel 24 Dbl Mug will put LOLB / ROLB / DT1 / DT2 back into the game.

The larger overarching point which one should take away from all of this is that defensive playbooks and formations in Madden are inflexible and archaic. The way everything is named using dated conventions only confuses people, they don't allow for creative and flexible personnel deployment, they don't replicate how modern defenses align to offenses, and they are long overdue for an overhaul. Like, an actual "throw-the-entire-thing-out-and-start-over" overhaul and not a sentimental "franchise mode needs an overhaul" overhaul.

[CM Hooe]

Quote: Originally Posted by Gritblitzer

I'll preface this with: I plan on getting the names of the audibles/formations later this evening.. I've been playing since the update and my audibles are ALL screwed up. When I swap formations in several different set audibles, my DT1 decides to run backwards and move to the FS position, while my FS decides to come up and play DT. It wasn't like this prior and has only been doing this since the changes made. Not sure why it's doing this. I will make sure I get the formations and what audibles are causing this, but I've yet to find a fix for it. It's kind of maddening.

I've noticed this too when audibling between formations EA Sports originally intended for "4-3" defenses and formations intended for "3-4" defenses. The way each position on the field is indexed relative to one another across different formations doesn't match up, which is causing players to reposition themselves in a way which is visually jarring and in some cases actively disruptive to playing sound football.

Again, the entire way Madden handles defensive playbooks needs an actual do-over.