MLB The Show 17 Gameplay Livestream Breakdown

[theu715]

Quote: Originally Posted by tessl

https://youtu.be/b2D7SfO5Bgk?t=179 I believe in the previous blog Russell addressed your concern about fielders taking too much time. I saved the video at the appropriate place. I disagree with you assertion runners never beat out "routine" ground balls IRL. As I stated in a previous post I watched Lou Brock for many years and he was a line drive hitter but one way he got to 3,000 hits was by bouncing the ball to the shortstop and if the ball bounced twice Brock was safe. The pressure he put on infielders with his speed generated hits by forcing the fielder out of his normal routine. Any bobble or failure to perfectly transfer the ball from glove to throwing hand = base hit for Brock. I believe they have cleaned up the "lazy" fielding animation which is good but fast hitters do get infield hits on "routine" plays because the pressure on the infielder generates mistakes. My preference would be for ground ball to infielder not 100% of the time result in an out. It's nearly impossible in a video game to replicate the pressure speed can put on the defense. Once the speedster gets on base sometimes the pitcher gets distracted. For example in 1971 Torre won the mvp - a big reason was Brock on base distracting the pitcher which resulted in the pitcher paying more attention to Brock than Torre. I don't know how they would ever program that dynamic into a video game but IRL it is a very real dynamic. Pitcher covering first was in the video. I believe the main problem remaining is the relay throw from second base on a 3-6-1 double play and from memory I think the devs discussed this last year. The problem is the fielder doesn't throw the ball until the pitcher is close to the bag. I'm confident they will clean up this problem but as with the "routine" ground balls IRL there are miscues with the pitcher covering first base. People in St Louis can tell you about a world series which hinged on such a play. Regarding pitchers not covering home plate on passed balls or wild pitches I completely agree. That needs to be cleaned up. It's sometimes as if neither the catcher or pitcher realize there is a runner on third base. As a manage mode player I'm aware of issues with runners making very poor base running decisions and being out by 30 feet. Both of those issues could use some work.

I will agree and disagree with you here. Yes, in the initial video they address the problem, but in the "deep dive" they only showed slower runners going down the line. You mentioned Lou Brock as the example of beating out infield hits. He is from the era of players who hustled and played out every play. Guys like that, few and far between these days, will beat out a ball that is a slow two hopper to the SS, but still not the 2b. A slow two hopper to SS is also not the plays I'm thinking of. I'm thinking of the balls hit where the SS or 2b that are hit decently hard and then the fielder taps his glove a couple of times, and throws a soft side arm throw to first and the runner (55 and under speed rating) beats it out because they are busting it down the line. I don't want to see that, but if Billy Hamilton or Kevin Keirmaier hit one like that and beat it out now and then, I wouldn't complain. The problem is we'll see those guys get thrown out every time to make up for the problems of it happening too much last year, and guys like Buster Posey or Matt Kemp will be the ones beating plays out from time to time.
As far as the pitchers covering first, yes there are miscues, but 80% of the time in game the runners are safe. In real life, it's probably 20% of the time that runners beat out 3-6-1 double plays or balls hit to first where the pitcher covers.

[tessl]

Quote: Originally Posted by theu715

I will agree and disagree with you here. Yes, in the initial video they address the problem, but in the "deep dive" they only showed slower runners going down the line. You mentioned Lou Brock as the example of beating out infield hits. He is from the era of players who hustled and played out every play. Guys like that, few and far between these days, will beat out a ball that is a slow two hopper to the SS, but still not the 2b. A slow two hopper to SS is also not the plays I'm thinking of. I'm thinking of the balls hit where the SS or 2b that are hit decently hard and then the fielder taps his glove a couple of times, and throws a soft side arm throw to first and the runner (55 and under speed rating) beats it out because they are busting it down the line. I don't want to see that, but if Billy Hamilton or Kevin Keirmaier hit one like that and beat it out now and then, I wouldn't complain. The problem is we'll see those guys get thrown out every time to make up for the problems of it happening too much last year, and guys like Buster Posey or Matt Kemp will be the ones beating plays out from time to time. As far as the pitchers covering first, yes there are miscues, but 80% of the time in game the runners are safe. In real life, it's probably 20% of the time that runners beat out 3-6-1 double plays or balls hit to first where the pitcher covers.

I think one thing we all agree on is how fantastic it is for the show to put live steams of the upcoming version featuring developers of the game. What other game does that? And what other website has a guy like Millennium taking the time to create a video looking at the developer video?

I understand on the deep dive they didn't use a fast batter and millennium mentioned it on the stream but on the split screen I posted earlier in this thread they showed a comparison between Zack Cozart and Billy Hamilton and a different animation branched for Hamilton. Hamilton, arguably the fastest man in MLB, hit a slow ground ball to shortstop which bounced 3 times - and he was out by 3 steps.

Concern would be overstating it but we have the opposite concern regarding ground balls and pitcher covering. I wonder if they will "clean it up" too good LOL.

One thing we both agree on is wild pitches/passed balls with a runner on 3B. That needs to be cleaned up.

Thanks for the reply - I enjoyed the conversation.

[El_MaYiMbE]

To piggy back off the guys talking about different throws depending on runner....

It would have been cool if they took it a step further and made the runners run slower/faster depending on where the ball was hit to make the two kinda click together.

As someone mentioned, there are times where players don't even run out the ball when its hit directly at a fielder, and I would like to see that realism in the game as well. Now for those of you thinking "well I do not want to be robbed of a hit a because the game decided I should run slow".....

MLB 2K solved that problem a few years back, they had a button that could be pressed when no one was on base ahead of you and they allowed you to try and beat out a ground ball. I think introducing something like that here would be cool.

If there is not a runner on base, or in DP situations, they could introduce "tapping on O button" (since you are running to first) to try and beat out the throw. This will accomplish a few things:

1. Get players controlling the team on offense more involved on routine plays after the ball is hit
2. Resolve issue where runners are not running fast enough for your liking (provided they introduced what I am proposing, and its also...again...giving more control to player)
3. Extends "Cat and Mouse" game they introduced to catching to fielding, as you now have to rush your throw or not based on HOW the player chose to run out the box, and not only based on whether that player is ALWAYS fast or slow.

Example: Mike Trout was up in the 1st inning and hit a screamer to the 3B who fielded it cleanly and tossed it to first, Trout chose (player controlling Trout) to not run it out. Second time up he does same thing, but this time is busting it down the line (user is tapping O Button) now fielder had to rush to make throw and its now a bang bang play, or he makes an error, or Trout beats it out, or anything else. Point is there is now variety in two similar plays all because the runner chose to play it different, causing the fielder to also react differently.

Now if a player is SLOW, him busting it up the line will help little, but it could be the difference if the fielder bobbled or threw a lollipop over, or whatever. It certainly extends the "game within the game".

So while I think the introduction of how players field the ball is a welcomed improvement, the same level of detail should be placed on other side of the ball. It kinda doesn't make 100% sense when the baserunner will always run the same speed no matter what.

[tessl]

Quote: Originally Posted by El_MaYiMbE

To piggy back off the guys talking about different throws depending on runner.... It would have been cool if they took it a step further and made the runners run slower/faster depending on where the ball was hit to make the two kinda click together. As someone mentioned, there are times where players don't even run out the ball when its hit directly at a fielder, and I would like to see that realism in the game as well. Now for those of you thinking "well I do not want to be robbed of a hit a because the game decided I should run slow"..... MLB 2K solved that problem a few years back, they had a button that could be pressed when no one was on base ahead of you and they allowed you to try and beat out a ground ball. I think introducing something like that here would be cool. If there is not a runner on base, or in DP situations, they could introduce "tapping on O button" (since you are running to first) to try and beat out the throw. This will accomplish a few things: 1. Get players controlling the team on offense more involved on routine plays after the ball is hit 2. Resolve issue where runners are not running fast enough for your liking (provided they introduced what I am proposing, and its also...again...giving more control to player) 3. Extends "Cat and Mouse" game they introduced to catching to fielding, as you now have to rush your throw or not based on HOW the player chose to run out the box, and not only based on whether that player is ALWAYS fast or slow. Example: Mike Trout was up in the 1st inning and hit a screamer to the 3B who fielded it cleanly and tossed it to first, Trout chose (player controlling Trout) to not run it out. Second time up he does same thing, but this time is busting it down the line (user is tapping O Button) now fielder had to rush to make throw and its now a bang bang play, or he makes an error, or Trout beats it out, or anything else. Point is there is now variety in two similar plays all because the runner chose to play it different, causing the fielder to also react differently. Now if a player is SLOW, him busting it up the line will help little, but it could be the difference if the fielder bobbled or threw a lollipop over, or whatever. It certainly extends the "game within the game". So while I think the introduction of how players field the ball is a welcomed improvement, the same level of detail should be placed on other side of the ball. It kinda doesn't make 100% sense when the baserunner will always run the same speed no matter what.

I use manage mode so I'm from Venus while most people are from Mars and I realize that - I see runners not always running hard to first base. I'm fine with the way that is currently animated.

What I would suggest for the new animation where a fielder goes to a different branch to throw out a fast runner would be an increased chance of the fielder not getting the ball out of his glove cleanly - double clutching - and the runner sometimes getting an infield hit. I doubt they have advanced far enough to include that in the game this year but perhaps in future years it might make it into the game to add a level of realism.

[El_MaYiMbE]

Quote: Originally Posted by tessl

I use manage mode so I'm from Venus while most people are from Mars and I realize that - I see runners not always running hard to first base. I'm fine with the way that is currently animated. What I would suggest for the new animation where a fielder goes to a different branch to throw out a fast runner would be an increased chance of the fielder not getting the ball out of his glove cleanly - double clutching - and the runner sometimes getting an infield hit. I doubt they have advanced far enough to include that in the game this year but perhaps in future years it might make it into the game to add a level of realism.

Runners run the same to first no matter the situation.

When you see a runner not running hard to first its because that is that player's animation, but they run the same no matter the situation.

A player with a 99 speed rating, will get to 1B in the same amount of time every time. That should not be the case. They slow down after the out is recorded, but out of the box and until the out is recorded the player runs the same no matter how far/hard/soft the ball was hit.

[BlacknBlue]

Quote: Originally Posted by El_MaYiMbE

Runners run the same to first no matter the situation. When you see a runner not running hard to first its because that is that player's animation, but they run the same no matter the situation. A player with a 99 speed rating, will get to 1B in the same amount of time every time. That should not be the case. They slow down after the out is recorded, but out of the box and until the out is recorded the player runs the same no matter how far/hard/soft the ball was hit.

That isn't true. They changed that last year. They added casual animations out of the batter's box on hit balls where the runner is likely to have no chance to beat the throw.

They showed this off extensively in a vlog last year. It is in 16. I'm not sure why it wasn't on display for this session's vlog, but it is from an early build and they did have a lot of widgets tuned, so that may be impacting what we saw.

But most of what is being complained about was addressed in the last release.

[El_MaYiMbE]

Quote: Originally Posted by BlacknBlue

That isn't true. They changed that last year. They added casual animations out of the batter's box on hit balls where the runner is likely to have no chance to beat the throw. They showed this off extensively in a vlog last year. It is in 16. I'm not sure why it wasn't on display for this session's vlog, but it is from an early build and they did have a lot of widgets tuned, so that may be impacting what we saw. But most of what is being complained about was addressed in the last release.

I do not remember this, and there is no evidence of this in MLB 16 or the gameplay shown so far in MLB 17.

There are a few things added to MLB 16 that give this illusion, but is not implemented the way I explained it should.

1. There are different run animations that can be assigned to players (this was new to MLB 16). There is one that is typically assigned to slower runners (David Ortiz, Prince Fielder, other big guys). The jogging animation COMBINED with the fact these guys are slow, makes them look slower. However, this is not situational....they run like this NO MATTER WHAT, because that is their animation no matter where the ball is placed

2. Different Swing Types produce different ways the batter drops bat and runs out of the box. Slap hitters tend to fall to one side and drop the bat quickly and almost ready to run. Big guys, with long swings tend to hold the bat and drop it as they run (Ortiz again). Again this gives the illusion they are coming out of the box different but once they hit their stride (this is the difference) they run the same no matter where the ball is placed. And by the same I do not mean the same as each other, but they run like their assigned animation regardless of ball location.

3. What is done properly MLB 16 is the baserunner does not run through the bag when out at first by a big margin. So if its a bullet to one of the fielders, and you toss it across the to 1B and the player is out by a mile, he will break down his run and casually jog and sometimes not even make it to first. However this happens AFTER the out is recorded, not in anticipation of the out.

All these 3 things together give the illusion that the runner "knew" he had no chance to beat it out. It works well in the context of the game as a whole, but it is not on the same level as the fielding logic being introduced in MLB 17.

When both the fielder and runner throw and run the same in all scenarios (respectively) like they did in MLB 16, its okay. But if you improve the fielding to make fielding animations situational, they should do the same on the base paths.

[El_MaYiMbE]

Perfect example....Go to minute 25:00 of the Deep Dive Gameplay on Twitch.

Kipnis is at the plate, he has a long swing, and hits ball to SS.
He has a 67 speed rating.

SS fields ball, takes his time, and Kipnis is running out of the box the same way he would've had it been a double in the gap (there is no difference between a double he hits, and ground ball out...he would have ran out the box the exact same way). The SS throws to first and its a bang bang play.

As per MLB 17's new fielding logic, the SS had plenty of time to throw to 1B, and he did because he got him out. But the runner was running at the same speed as he would have had there been a DP opportunity. As far as the baserunner is concerned it only took one thing into account......Kipnis has a 67 speed rating, and it will take him "x" amount of seconds to get to first....nothing else. Yet with the new fielding logic, the SS took the following into account:

1. Kipnis is a 67 rating
2. Ball was sharply hit
3. SS has a decent arm
4. His feet are set
5. I have plenty of time to throw him out

Why is the SS (all fielders) smarter than the runner? The runner should have taken all that into a account as well, and not ran at the same speed he would have ran had it been a double in the gap.

In the context of a video games it means nothing. An out is an out....but for realism sake it does mean something. The player would take numbers 1-5 that I referenced above into account, and would decide it is not worth exerting that much energy if I am going to be out, so let me just jog. The fielder made the same analysis and decided to not rush and make a clean throw....why wasn't the runner granted the same "logic"?

Like I said above, what they did with the fielding is an improvement and more realistic, but they forgot about the other side of the ball.

Here is link: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/120907599 (minute 25-26).