PES 2017 Demo Available on Xbox One, PS4, PS3 - Post Your Impressions

[Gnemi]

I think what Matt is generally pointing out is that, tactics aside, Barca have been programmed to play...weird.

They seem like a herd of 12 year-olds who've been told to press or snipers in the stadium will shoot them. As a result, it just stops looking like football. I especially think it's odd when they constantly double, triple team, made worse because human teammates don't find the gaps and spaces left by Barca's silly aggression. It just looks cartoonish.

[Gnemi]

Quote: Originally Posted by nunogomes

This (the bold part) didn´t really happened the last few times those teams met... Just messing around with Arsenal fans! Now, to counter this full out suicide press i can only think of spreading the team, play very wide so they can´t cover so much ground. Also, LWF and RWF and not LFM or RMF should be better to counter this. In Matt´s video, for example, Corinthians plays very through the middle, this is the worst against a team that presses in that crazy way Barça does on PES.

Yeah, I know what you're getting at, but the way Barca apply suicidal pressure in the demo, *any* professional club should be able to counter because the pressure is fundamentally counterintuitive and would only be possible if Lance Armstrong was supplying Barca with his personal supply of PEDs.

[Matt10]

Quote: Originally Posted by nunogomes

Im not with you in some points on this one Matt. For example: We are very far from a game where CPU "Big Team" realizes it´s playing a small team and changes the tactic acordingly. No game past or present (and dare i say near future) had/has this feature and PES 17 is no exception. You say, these are professional athletes, they don´t need to be told every step by tactics... i see your point of course, but again, we are very far from "that" game. I agree with you when you say PES community sees a flaw and always attributes it to tactics or form arrows and says this is easy to fix. But, it´s the same with sliders in FIFA. We had for two years straight 2 threads with FIFA sliders with almost 1000 pages and in the end, i think we would all agree the game is only marginally better than default. PES is the same, the game will be better with edited tactics but it won´t make the CPU change tactics based on the opponent, for example. I see this video more as a "generic AI problems in football games" and not so much as PES specific problems video (hope im making myself clear! ). Oh, and watch the stats, Superstar may put Barça players running around chasing the ball like crazy and giving you space, BUT... you had 1 shot the entire game (not even on target), so... that looks like a pretty "difficult difficulty". Keep those videos coming!

Hi Nuno!

Agree with you regarding FIFA, it was especially frustrating receiving as many gameplay updates that kept us further and further away from the proper base.

I completely understand what you mean about generic AI problems...to a point. Instead of looking at FIFA v PES, let's look at the older titles such as early as PES 2011. Specifically, and what will be in the next video, look at player rating/values as an indicator to what tactical adherence has created in the past and present. As the "founder" of global editing in PES, I can't help but look into the player ratings as being the culprit for what we see now.

There are some key player ratings that are no longer in the current PES, that made up the proper composition of a player - that actually allowed the players to vary their adherence to tactics, or overall teamwork. You guessed it, that value was "Teamwork" (there was also "Chemistry" in previous games).

Look here for Messi in PES 16 - http://www.pesmaster.com/l-messi/pes-2016/player/7511/

- No mention of "Teamwork", or "Chemistry"

Instead we have Attack/Defense Prowess:

Quote:

Attacking Prowess: The Ability to be involved with goal scoring chances (appropriate positioning when attacking, fast reactions to loose balls, getting into the right places for crosses). Defensive Prowess: The ability of defending by predicting the pattern of play. It includes how good his reactions are based on intelligent reading of the game when defending, rather than his physical reactions.

Now here Messi from PES PES 13 - http://www.pesmaster.com/messi/pes-2013/player/7511/

- Teamwork value of 83

To go into it deeper, see here, the "NexGen Pes Stats" - http://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/vi...p?f=11&t=35306

And the "Old-Gen Stats" - http://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/vi...p?f=11&t=27818

Quote:

Teamwork Teamwork relates to supportive off the ball movement. A player with high Teamwork (Xavi, for example) supports their teammates by moving around the field, making themselves available for potentional passes. Additionally, in the case of defenders, Teamwork effects a player's ability to work with his defensive teammates as a unit. Teamwork is not, despite previous beliefs, at all related to how good of a playmaker a player is.

So instead, the NexGen PES Stats have consolidated the likes of Teamwork, Menality, Tenacity, Chemistry, etc - into the value of "Prowess". Attacking/Defensive Prowess is the reason we are getting the game the way it is in this current gen. There is no more truly identifiable stat that controls the adherence level to the tactics, or even the nature of a game is played. It's all "under the hood" now.

One last point, the Attack/Defense ratings of old, is different than the Attack/Defense Prowess. I still highly believe the Prowess values are purely cosmetic, or an addition/subtraction, of the OVR value. The best way you can test this is load up PES 13 (or older), lower Attack and raise Defense. Play a ML, finish the match, go in and see the CPU scores. In PES 13 (or older) you will see very low scoring, in PES 16 you will see them completely untouched, there will be a range of scores.

Thanks again for watching the video, Nuno - I love your input, man. Always have. My mind sometimes thinks too fast for my mouth/keyboard, so it helps me regroup my thoughts when we all get into these discussions.

[PAPERNUT]

I just wonder how much the shortened demo time may have some effect on a lot of these issues you guys are mentioning. If it has any...Guess we will know more in a week.

[nunogomes]

Quote: Originally Posted by Gnemi

Yeah, I know what you're getting at, but the way Barca apply suicidal pressure in the demo, *any* professional club should be able to counter because the pressure is fundamentally counterintuitive and would only be possible if Lance Armstrong was supplying Barca with his personal supply of PEDs.

I wish Lance Armstrong would suplly Barça in PES, because maybe that would remove the thing that´s annoying me the most playing against Barça (it´s no the pressure): Messi or Suarez are subbed waaaaay too many times.

They probably tire out quickly because of pressure and i hate that honestly. It´s super rare to see Messi or Suarez subbed in Barça, but in PES i see it too frequently to my liking...

Quote: Originally Posted by Matt10

Hi Nuno! Agree with you regarding FIFA, it was especially frustrating receiving as many gameplay updates that kept us further and further away from the proper base. I completely understand what you mean about generic AI problems...to a point. Instead of looking at FIFA v PES, let's look at the older titles such as early as PES 2011. Specifically, and what will be in the next video, look at player rating/values as an indicator to what tactical adherence has created in the past and present. As the "founder" of global editing in PES, I can't help but look into the player ratings as being the culprit for what we see now. There are some key player ratings that are no longer in the current PES, that made up the proper composition of a player - that actually allowed the players to vary their adherence to tactics, or overall teamwork. You guessed it, that value was "Teamwork" (there was also "Chemistry" in previous games). Look here for Messi in PES 16 - http://www.pesmaster.com/l-messi/pes-2016/player/7511/ - No mention of "Teamwork", or "Chemistry" Instead we have Attack/Defense Prowess: Now here Messi from PES PES 13 - http://www.pesmaster.com/messi/pes-2013/player/7511/ - Teamwork value of 83 To go into it deeper, see here, the "NexGen Pes Stats" - http://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/vi...p?f=11&t=35306 And the "Old-Gen Stats" - http://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/vi...p?f=11&t=27818 So instead, the NexGen PES Stats have consolidated the likes of Teamwork, Menality, Tenacity, Chemistry, etc - into the value of "Prowess". Attacking/Defensive Prowess is the reason we are getting the game the way it is in this current gen. There is no more truly identifiable stat that controls the adherence level to the tactics, or even the nature of a game is played. It's all "under the hood" now. One last point, the Attack/Defense ratings of old, is different than the Attack/Defense Prowess. I still highly believe the Prowess values are purely cosmetic, or an addition/subtraction, of the OVR value. The best way you can test this is load up PES 13 (or older), lower Attack and raise Defense. Play a ML, finish the match, go in and see the CPU scores. In PES 13 (or older) you will see very low scoring, in PES 16 you will see them completely untouched, there will be a range of scores. Thanks again for watching the video, Nuno - I love your input, man. Always have. My mind sometimes thinks too fast for my mouth/keyboard, so it helps me regroup my thoughts when we all get into these discussions.

Yeah, i remember that teamwork value! Sorry it´s gone, it would be useful...

Right know i think that in Barça´s case, Konami over did things! They tried to show it like "Hey look! Look how we made Barça play like Barça", except they over did it, and now it doesn´t look like Barça, it looks like a Barça on steroids...

[KG]

Some great discussion in here fellas!

Regarding Barca, that's how they are in real life though. They subscribe to the 6 sec rule (after losing possession they MUST win it back within 6 secs or they drop into formation). It's why generally counter-attack focused teams (or teams that switch to that mentality) are the only one's to really have success vs them (2014 Real, 2012 Chelsea, Atletico). They also push so many #'s forward that they often have 2-3 players around the ball when in possession so when they lose it it's easy to swarm.

I've noticed that when playing them most of my matches are up & down because of their high pressure tactic which leaves their midfield over-exposed. When I'm playing with no assistance though, that press is lethal and I'm constantly just clearing the ball out of danger instead of trying to pass my way out of the back. I beat them for the first time this morning with Arsenal. They had 8 shots to my 2 (and 1 was from a FK) and I pretty much just soaked up pressure and tried to have 2 players around Messi and Neymar at all times.

In regards to tactics as a crutch, I'm guilty at times of that but my primary goal with tactics is to get different play styles by different teams. I hate repetitiveness, especially in video games when it comes to AI. It's why I prefer tactics to sliders BUT fully realize that a combination of both is the most we can ask for in a game.

Edit: Completely agree about those missing ratings Matt. I thought the old PES' had some of the best attributes in sports games. They really had an impact on the game and how you rated players.

[kinfolk]

Quote: Originally Posted by nunogomes

To keep possession: you can shield the ball (R1 without moving the left stick), but you can also press R2 to face the goal and get your ball really close to your feet. Try it while you have the ball on your defense and get used to R2.

"R1 without moving the left stick" doesn't work for me, the player doesn't protect the ball at all.

I saw the Bhatti and German guy youtube video in the other thread and they managed to dribble inside the box, I keep losing the ball all the time so I usually end up shooting from distance. Is there any video that explains how to control the ball? (Sorry for the noob questions)

[phillyfan23]

Just wondering, what was your biggest margin of victory against the cpu on top player or above ? Just worried that there is rubberbanding....up by 2 goals, and the cpu will at least score one back. Any 2-0 or 3-0 wins on the demo???


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