Madden NFL 17 Player Ratings - Top 5 Wide Receivers

[Yazan Gable]

Quote: Originally Posted by msdm27

Thx for the input but as long as 40 time = SPD in Madden, then all that data is irrelevant to the discussion, unfortunately.

Obviously 40 =/= Speed since A.J. Green is slower than DeAndre Hopkins.

Quote: Originally Posted by msdm27

Show me where is the overreacting, please. This is the current issue on the forum with Madden, every time someone post a reasonable complaint or critique regarding something in the game, they are met with tangent arguments as to why the complaint doesn't matter (why does a 1 point different matter if they still run by <90 speed DB?, well then why have a 100 scale then if things are not going to be represented accurately); and after the you are met with the typical "that's nitpicking" line. Please tell me where the threadshold is for rating inconsistency for one to be able to point it out without being nitpicky? Bottom line, your statement that a one point ratings difference doesn't mean much is methodically wrong and goes against the logic of a 100 scale.

Quote: Originally Posted by msdm27

And if their reasoning is "game speed" then that is deeply disappointing because I, with all due respect to Kane, can't fathom how someone who was hired for his knowledge of equipment/uniforms suddenly became capable/experienced enough to go through NFL game tape and accurately judge how "game speed" works and then assign it to players.

Deeply, terribly disappointed that I cannot even FATHOM HOW ONE COULD THINK IN SUCH A WAY. Quite melodramatic over a single tiny point in a 0-99 scale that you yourself can edit and in the big scheme of things doesn't change much about both the player nor his effectiveness as a whole.

A nice way to not nitpick is to complain about their methodology of rating as a whole or the lack of transparency in the methodology, or perhaps about the lack of effective line interaction where stunting and looping would work as they do in real life versus just making a mess of the trenches and giving the QB all the time in the world to complete a pass, or perhaps that there should be a more involved pass rush system involving a variety of moves (with the offensive lineman having ratings that reflect their effectiveness at resisting those moves) so that you can set up certain moves with other moves, or perhaps making players be good at particular routes as opposed to all routes being treated equally by route running, or really any amount of gameplay or ratings-related thing that isn't "how is X slower than Y by 1 point even though he ran this once at a contrived exhibition of physical abilities?" Big picture stuff, gameplay things, not a particular rating on a player being a point or two too low.

Also, like I've said before, I am not bothered by a single speed point being lower than I think it should be because there are players that have been and will continue to be shafted by ratings because the person rating the player thinks they need to maintain some legacy of competence (85 OVR Peyton Manning) or because they cannot accurately represent the variety of issues that can make a QB or offense perform badly and penalize some players (Philip Rivers/Marcus Mariota/Teddy Bridgewater) but not others (Aaron Rodgers)

[msdm27]

Quote: Originally Posted by Yazan Gable

Obviously 40 =/= Speed since A.J. Green is slower than DeAndre Hopkins. Deeply, terribly disappointed that I cannot even FATHOM HOW ONE COULD THINK IN SUCH A WAY. Quite melodramatic over a single tiny point in a 0-99 scale that you yourself can edit and in the big scheme of things doesn't change much about both the player nor his effectiveness as a whole. A nice way to not nitpick is to complain about their methodology of rating as a whole or the lack of transparency in the methodology, or perhaps about the lack of effective line interaction where stunting and looping would work as they do in real life versus just making a mess of the trenches and giving the QB all the time in the world to complete a pass, or perhaps that there should be a more involved pass rush system involving a variety of moves (with the offensive lineman having ratings that reflect their effectiveness at resisting those moves) so that you can set up certain moves with other moves, or perhaps making players be good at particular routes as opposed to all routes being treated equally by route running, or really any amount of gameplay or ratings-related thing that isn't "how is X slower than Y by 1 point even though he ran this once at a contrived exhibition of physical abilities?" Big picture stuff, gameplay things, not a particular rating on a player being a point or two too low. Also, like I've said before, I am not bothered by a single speed point being lower than I think it should be because there are players that have been and will continue to be shafted by ratings because the person rating the player thinks they need to maintain some legacy of competence (85 OVR Peyton Manning) or because they cannot accurately represent the variety of issues that can make a QB or offense perform badly and penalize some players (Philip Rivers/Marcus Mariota/Teddy Bridgewater) but not others (Aaron Rodgers)

SPD in Madden is 40 time, adjusted by age regression (as has been discussed in this very thread after our last interaction) so yes, SPD = 40 time.

The issue is whether they modify speed based on "game speed" and/or age regression. And how maybe AJ Green might already be affected by the regression, which makes little sense. Would u agree with that?

Your second point is ridiculous imo, so because there PLENTY of big things Madden does not do well or lacks then it should not be possible to complain about other issues? Sorry but you don't get to decide what is big enough to complain about. Ratings run gameplay so ratings inconsistencies actually have an impact on the most important aspect of the game.

It is deeply disappointing indeed that they switch over from the Ratings Czar, and even go as far as looking at FBG for ratings, and we still sit here looks at wonky physical ratings. Besides, the part of the post you were quoting (deeply disappointing, can't fathom) was not even related to the one point SPD differential but rather using things like "game speed" to modify ratings. Reading.

I agree at large with your last point about not harping too much on ratings as things will to some degree be subjective or even legacy based. My original post only referred to why two relatively young players have a somewhat illogical SPD rating.

[Yazan Gable]

Quote: Originally Posted by msdm27

The issue is whether they modify speed based on "game speed" and/or age regression. And how maybe AJ Green might already be affected by the regression, which makes little sense. Would u agree with that? Your second point is ridiculous imo, so because there PLENTY of big things Madden does not do well or lacks then it should not be possible to complain about other issues? Sorry but you don't get to decide what is big enough to complain about. Ratings run gameplay so ratings inconsistencies actually have an impact on the most important aspect of the game. It is deeply disappointing indeed that they switch over from the Ratings Czar, and even go as far as looking at FBG for ratings, and we still sit here looks at wonky physical ratings. Besides, the part of the post you were quoting (deeply disappointing, can't fathom) was not even related to the one point SPD differential but rather using things like "game speed" to modify ratings. Reading.

You can complain about it, and I can criticize the complaint as being nitpicky. And you guessed that it 'might' be game speed that influenced it. And the issue is if "game speed" is being used to make AJ Green slower than Hopkins. To which my response was, it's a single point difference between the two which is negligible enough to not really matter when it comes to how effective these two players are. AJ Green has been getting nicked up for years now, and if that's what made them make AJ Green ever so slightly slower than DeAndre Hopkins then whatever. If they made him a single point under Hopkins because they just felt like it, I would both be not surprised and not bothered because he will still be one of the best wide receivers in the game and the closest we've come to how the ratings are put together is when that chart of how each rating is weighed for players. I think there is an arbitrary nature to these ratings anyway, so age regression right as he's hitting the peak of his abilities is not what I believe.

How about this, I just sent the ratings guy a tweet asking why AJ Green is slower than Hopkins. If he responds then you'll have your answer.

[briz1046]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

40 time does not equate to maximum velocity over the course of the run. There are three components to the 40 - the initial burst, the ability to maintain burst, and rate of deceleration. Many players in the league will start decelerating around 25-30 yards due to fatigue; they reach their maximum speed, hold for a bit, then slow down. If you do some calculus using the three data points generated from players' timed combine runs - 10-yard split, 20-yard split, and 40 time - you can determine a player's maximum speed, acceleration (ability to reach top speed), and stamina (ability to maintain top speed / keep accelerating). I'll do the math for some of the guys in question here later this evening if you all are interested.

As far as I know Madden does use both SPD & ACC to reflect 40 times but the stamina aspect isn't represented properly
There is data for track athletes that suggest peak age for sprinters is in the 24 to 25 area , several years after many WRs run their combine times so theoretically and ignoring injury they could progress until that point then regress according to a bell curve progression arc

[Yazan Gable]

Badoosh

[msdm27]

To that point, I still find it weird that age 28 is already a "speed declining phase" for players.

But at least the Green/Hopkins question is answered now.
I feel like there should be another way to represent speed decline, or at least start with the decline at a later stage?

[underdog13]

Quote: Originally Posted by msdm27

To that point, I still find it weird that age 28 is already a "speed declining phase" for players. But at least the Green/Hopkins question is answered now. I feel like there should be another way to represent speed decline, or at least start with the decline at a later stage?

Why whats wrong with 28? I think its very fair to say a football player is slower at 28 than they were at 24. They might be much better at running routes counter acting it but, I don't know many athletes that get faster as they get older.

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[mrprice33]

Quote: Originally Posted by msdm27

Do you have a link to the source of the graph? What exactly is involved in "aging"?

http://socalledfantasyexperts.com/ag...ingle-position

It's using Approximate Value as defined by Pro-Football Reference. Not a perfect metric by any means (as some, such as Pro Football Focus, track player grades and have determined that most players peak physically before they've played their first regular season down), but a consistent one.