Madden NFL 17 Has Ball Physics, New Ways to Eliminate Money Plays & Much More

[Trick13]

Quote: Originally Posted by 4thQtrStre5S

Sounding like you are wanting user control and timing to over-ride player ratings? The aggressive catch and possession catch and RAC, for example, are just indicating what type of catch the user wants the player to try, and then ratings determine the outcome.. To make user timing when pressing an action button a dominant action, would remove the effects of attributes, at least in the way you appear to be describing the INT scenario above; that would make the game more arcade than sim. Tackle Battle may seem like an arcade mechanic, on the surface, but I am reading into the description, as it being a "tie" breaker between 2 relatively equal players; which makes it more simulation based than a simple button mashing mode.

Wrong, wrong, wrong!!!

Ball carrier controls is doing exactly what I want out of ball in the air interactions - ratings control what you can do, timing and user input controls when you do it and what tier the action is (within that player's ratings).

The idea that you just hit a button somewhere, sometime before intended action is to take place and the cpu will decide when the action is to be done is, in a word, ridiculous. Can you imagine playing a FPS and just holding down the trigger only to have the cpu determine when you have a clear shot??? Doesn't sound like a very good mechanic for a football game either!!!

And yet, that is what some knuckle heads seem to think Madden should be. The user suggests an action and the CPU determines if you are in position to even attempt such an action. It is BS, the user (particularly at higher difficulties) should determine not only the type of action attempted but the precise timing of said action.

Let's take swat for an example.

You like holding a button the entire time after the ball is thrown, meaning the CPU steers your player, determines what arm he uses, and the timing of the attempt - just play coach mode.

I want a running swat button or type of input - let's say tap the button - the defender doesn't leave his feet and reaches out his hand (left or right depending on the button used LB/RB) the timing determined by the user, the effectiveness determined by position relative to the ball flight, and the players ratings - cth/awr and how long does he have to locate the ball. In other words, if the defender (even user controlled) is running along side the receiver but has not gotten his head around the then his attempt should be negatively impacted by that factor with AWR playing a big part of whether or not he can read the receiver's eyes, arm reach or what have you to get his arm in the right area to "maybe" swat that pass, where as if he his looking at the ball and the timing is correct he should have (within his ratings) a better chance of deflecting the pass.

Next I want a jumping swat, meaning the player leaps in the air and attempts to swat the ball away. The timing of the input (how long you hold the button) should determine how much of the player's vertical he utilizes (and for that matter how much the action slows his momentum as he must "gather" his feet to achieve the leap) and the timing within the context of the action should determine when the attempt is made. The success of such attempts will be then determined by the player's ratings - low cth/awr means a higher window for failure - ie the player's hand/arm and the ball don't meet. Jump rating would determine still how high the player can go.

With this kind of system you can have situations where I can completely whiff and take myself out of a play - poor timing - button hit early, or worng type of input (tapped when I should have held or vice versa or even using the wrong hand).

The system we have now sucks, period. You can hit buttons and get zero reaction out of a controlled player and that is unacceptable. If I dive 3 seconds too early, well tough. If I miss time a swat attempt well darn. This is no different than running the ball and waiting too long to juke, or hurdling way too early or even trucking at thin air.

There is no reason what so ever for the cpu to not allow me to attempt anything, anywhere at any time. It is absolutely dumb as heck to have ball carrier controls based on ratings and timing and not have all other actions based on ratings and timing...

[4thQtrStre5S]

Quote: Originally Posted by Trick13

Wrong, wrong, wrong!!! Ball carrier controls is doing exactly what I want out of ball in the air interactions - ratings control what you can do, timing and user input controls when you do it and what tier the action is (within that player's ratings). The idea that you just hit a button somewhere, sometime before intended action is to take place and the cpu will decide when the action is to be done is, in a word, ridiculous. Can you imagine playing a FPS and just holding down the trigger only to have the cpu determine when you have a clear shot??? Doesn't sound like a very good mechanic for a football game either!!! And yet, that is what some knuckle heads seem to think Madden should be. The user suggests an action and the CPU determines if you are in position to even attempt such an action. It is BS, the user (particularly at higher difficulties) should determine not only the type of action attempted but the precise timing of said action. Let's take swat for an example. You like holding a button the entire time after the ball is thrown, meaning the CPU steers your player, determines what arm he uses, and the timing of the attempt - just play coach mode. I want a running swat button or type of input - let's say tap the button - the defender doesn't leave his feet and reaches out his hand (left or right depending on the button used LB/RB) the timing determined by the user, the effectiveness determined by position relative to the ball flight, and the players ratings - cth/awr and how long does he have to locate the ball. In other words, if the defender (even user controlled) is running along side the receiver but has not gotten his head around the then his attempt should be negatively impacted by that factor with AWR playing a big part of whether or not he can read the receiver's eyes, arm reach or what have you to get his arm in the right area to "maybe" swat that pass, where as if he his looking at the ball and the timing is correct he should have (within his ratings) a better chance of deflecting the pass. Next I want a jumping swat, meaning the player leaps in the air and attempts to swat the ball away. The timing of the input (how long you hold the button) should determine how much of the player's vertical he utilizes (and for that matter how much the action slows his momentum as he must "gather" his feet to achieve the leap) and the timing within the context of the action should determine when the attempt is made. The success of such attempts will be then determined by the player's ratings - low cth/awr means a higher window for failure - ie the player's hand/arm and the ball don't meet. Jump rating would determine still how high the player can go. With this kind of system you can have situations where I can completely whiff and take myself out of a play - poor timing - button hit early, or worng type of input (tapped when I should have held or vice versa or even using the wrong hand). The system we have now sucks, period. You can hit buttons and get zero reaction out of a controlled player and that is unacceptable. If I dive 3 seconds too early, well tough. If I miss time a swat attempt well darn. This is no different than running the ball and waiting too long to juke, or hurdling way too early or even trucking at thin air. There is no reason what so ever for the cpu to not allow me to attempt anything, anywhere at any time. It is absolutely dumb as heck to have ball carrier controls based on ratings and timing and not have all other actions based on ratings and timing...

FPS's don't have ratings..Sounds like you misinterpret the current system..Madden is ratings based, not input based. Hitting Aggressive catch for example, merely tells the system which ratings to use; at least that is how it plays.

As you are stating it, you want the user to time everything, which removes ratings in many situations. Tiers of what a player can do are determined by ratings..User input shouldn't take over that system.

You are describing an arcade game; such as a FPS..

You do realize that the icon over a player, such as he "A" for aggressive catch, will be played out whether you hit "A" or not, correct? What you do have, is the option to select another catch action, RAC or Possession.

[z.arthur23]

Quote: Originally Posted by 4thQtrStre5S

FPS's don't have ratings..Sounds like you misinterpret the current system..Madden is ratings based, not input based. Hitting Aggressive catch for example, merely tells the system which ratings to use; at least that is how it plays. As you are stating it, you want the user to time everything, which removes ratings in many situations. Tiers of what a player can do are determined by ratings..User input shouldn't take over that system. You are describing an arcade game; such as a FPS.. You do realize that the icon over a player, such as he "A" for aggressive catch, will be played out whether you hit "A" or not, correct? What you do have, is the option to select another catch action, RAC or Possession.

I don't believe that's what he's saying at all. He's simply saying that the most sim thing to do would be to have it both ways. Where if you timed the "user input" correctly, then the "rating system" would go into effect.

If you didn't time it correctly, then why should a rating system matter? I personally love the idea as it adds more skill to the game. For your example, if hitting Aggressive Catch merely tells the game which ratings to use, then there should also be a timing based component to let the game know when the player attempts to make the catch. Once he's in the air going for it, the rating system goes into effect and the catch is determined at that point.

If anything, I think Trick13 is wanting ratings to play an even bigger role. Such as having a person's jumping and awareness rating matter more, etc.

[mrprice33]

I think that's all fine and dandy but control fidelity isn't even close to being able to provide that level of precision. We need new controllers to pull that kind of stuff off.

[z.arthur23]

I think the holding the jump button timing to determine how high someone jumps would certainly require a new controller. That's a bit much to be honest. But simply saying your receiver goes for the ball when you hit a catch button doesn't require anything new. It used to be that way in the ps2 and xbox days.

[Trick13]

Quote: Originally Posted by 4thQtrStre5S

FPS's don't have ratings..Sounds like you misinterpret the current system..Madden is ratings based, not input based. Hitting Aggressive catch for example, merely tells the system which ratings to use; at least that is how it plays. As you are stating it, you want the user to time everything, which removes ratings in many situations. Tiers of what a player can do are determined by ratings..User input shouldn't take over that system. You are describing an arcade game; such as a FPS.. You do realize that the icon over a player, such as he "A" for aggressive catch, will be played out whether you hit "A" or not, correct? What you do have, is the option to select another catch action, RAC or Possession.

Then how come I have timing control on running plays - I can skipp the correct gap and bounce outside, I can truck stick thin air - why should the passing game be any different than the running game.

What you are describing is a fantasy role playing game, or pokemon.

Look, I am not saying you should be able to play like Prime Time D. Sanders with a scrub 67 rated player, but if the user doesn't have control over what type of attempts are made (and particularly when) then you might as well not even play. You can have 99 rated W. Payton and hit the stiff arm early or late and be completely ineffective - why would you not have that same control when playing the ball in the air.

This whole CPU determination thing all materialized out of Randy Moss being "unstoppable" back in the day because weak sauce cats playing online refused to double team him and shade a safety at him. News flash, back then NFL offenses had to double team him and shade a safety his way.


By your logic, when running the ball we should just hold a button and the cpu should determine which move the ball carrier should make, what direction he runs, and if or when he should cut back. Do see how dumb that would be.

I am not talking about overriding the players attributes or ratings. I am saying that within his ratings the user should have to time out the actions just like you do in the running game...

[mrprice33]

Quote: Originally Posted by z.arthur23

I think the holding the jump button timing to determine how high someone jumps would certainly require a new controller. That's a bit much to be honest. But simply saying your receiver goes for the ball when you hit a catch button doesn't require anything new. It used to be that way in the ps2 and xbox days.

Two words:

rocket catching

[4thQtrStre5S]

Quote: Originally Posted by z.arthur23

I don't believe that's what he's saying at all. He's simply saying that the most sim thing to do would be to have it both ways. Where if you timed the "user input" correctly, then the "rating system" would go into effect. If you didn't time it correctly, then why should a rating system matter? I personally love the idea as it adds more skill to the game. For your example, if hitting Aggressive Catch merely tells the game which ratings to use, then there should also be a timing based component to let the game know when the player attempts to make the catch. Once he's in the air going for it, the rating system goes into effect and the catch is determined at that point. If anything, I think Trick13 is wanting ratings to play an even bigger role. Such as having a person's jumping and awareness rating matter more, etc.

Adding user timing, takes out player ratings, such as awareness, from what I am reading, also man coverage and zone coverage; if you time when a player is to attempt an action, then you are left with jumping and catching, generally speaking; thus less ratings...

Obviously I am making a basic example, only.

Not to mention timing is very difficult in a game, just from a perspective/visual from user to screen, not to mention lag online; which is why many in FPS games use automatic weapons or things with larger splash damage..