MLB The Show 16: Gameplay Taking Steps Forward

[Bobhead]

Quote: Originally Posted by kehlis

Arm speed for the above two pitches (97 mph fastball/83 mph changeup) is the same. If a pitcher adjusts his arm speed for a change up he's doing it wrong.

That's exactly it, a lot of them are doing it wrong. They aren't slowing their arm on purpose, but they are still slowing their arm. That's where The Show goes wrong.

A lot of pitchers don't even have the same release point for a changeup. Source:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...st-of-the-pack

Just because a pitcher attempts to throw a changeup, and calls it a changeup, doesn't mean he's doing it correctly. Entire articles are written about the few that do it correctly:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/03/sp...tana.html?_r=0

The implication and conclusion being that everyone else is not doing it correctly. For most pitchers, there are noticeable differences between the delivery of a changeup and a delivery of a fastball. See Jason Giambi's quote for more information.

Quote:

Giambi said some pitchers “choke” the ball (grip it more tightly) when uncorking a changeup, so it is easy to detect what they are throwing.

And that is all just on changeups. Curveballs have even more volatility here
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/201...-release-point

This isn't just my opinion I'm giving. It's a fact. There is a very small number of pitchers who can throw a changeup or curveball with a 15 or 20 mph differential, respectively, without changing their delivery in some way.

The Show needs to account for this, and the easiest way to do that is to simply add a few mph to everyone's changeup and curveball, except for the elite pitches of those types.

If the differentials seem too big in The Show, it's because, all else being equal, they actually are.

[kehlis]

Quote: Originally Posted by Bobhead

A lot of pitchers don't even have the same release point for a changeup. Source: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...st-of-the-pack

If that's your source for proving that "a lot of pitchers" don't have the same release you may want to re-read the article or find another story. I do agree with you that there are pitchers that do tip their changeups (and other pitchers) but don't agree that it's a lot of pitchers as your post suggests and that article certainly doesn't back you claim in any way.

But saying "A lot of" and then posting a story about one pitcher who doesn't share the same release point isn't exactly a discussion point.

[Bobhead]

Quote: Originally Posted by kehlis

If that's your source for proving that "a lot of pitchers" don't have the same release you may want to re-read the article or find another story as I agree with you that there are pitchers that do tip their changeups. But saying "A lot of" and then posting a story about one pitcher who doesn't share the same release point isn't exactly a discussion point.

Well... most articles are written about one pitcher at a time, and no one is writing an article on Dallas Braden or JA Happ. Furthermore, only pitchers that use their changeup frequently are going to get an article written about it... no one cares if Joe Schmo is tipping his changeup that he only throws once per game... so there is going to be a disproportionately low number of articles on individual pitchers, to begin with. Not sure how many more you are looking for.

Fernando Rodney: http://www.lookoutlanding.com/2015/7...ng-his-pitches
Zack Wheeler AND Drew Storen tip pitches with differing deliveries: http://www.nationalsarmrace.com/?p=7080

I think we can agree Clayton Kershaw is pretty good at pitching, and this is even a noteworthy concern for him:
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/pi...-best-pitcher/

Quote:

but he has to work on keeping the same arm speed he uses to throw his fastball; he has to do a better job of selling the pitch

It's a conscious action, on every pitch, to increase your arm speed on an offspeed pitch, to disguise the pitch. It's not an automatic thing.

This article is on a unrelated topic, but David Ortiz gives a relevant quote which should give you an idea that it happens fairly often: http://m.mlb.com/news/article/4597054/

Quote:

Sometimes there's guys tipping their pitches out there, and I still won't hit it because I can't focus on that.

David Price used to tip his changeup, he just recently increased his changeup velocity to correct it: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/anato...-hit-disaster/
But then he relapsed: http://www.si.com/mlb/2015/10/24/roy...clinch-pennant

Quote:

Both confirmed it: Price tipped his changeup—maybe not 100% of the time, but enough for Kansas City to buy in.

Not tipping his pitches was Greg Maddux main key to success
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...5f6_story.html

Jamie Moyer: http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/eye-...book-radar-gun

Also see this quote about Marco Estrada:

Quote:

On average, Estrada drops nearly 11 mph off his four-seam fastball with every changeup, giving him the largest difference of any right-handed starter in baseball.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/marco...iest-changeup/

A lot of this is inference. We know that pitcher Y is successful because of X, and we know a lot of pitchers are not successful. Therefore, does it not hold highly probable that X is not true for a lot of pitchers?

Somewhere between the 8 or so links I've shared, I think it's safe to say that if a pitcher is highly successful, it is usually because they have eradicated any and all indicators for their pitches.
For the rest of the pack, 100% autonomy just doesn't exist.

[kehlis]

Quote: Originally Posted by Bobhead

Well... most articles are written about one pitcher at a time, and no one is writing an article on Dallas Braden or JA Happ. Furthermore, only pitchers that use their changeup frequently are going to get an article written about it... no one cares if Joe Schmo is tipping his changeup that he only throws once per game... so there is going to be a disproportionately low number of articles on individual pitchers, to begin with. Not sure how many more you are looking for. Fernando Rodney: http://www.lookoutlanding.com/2015/7...ng-his-pitches

Yep, he's tipping his pitches but it has nothing to with his arm slot which unless I'm mistaken was your point.

Quote:

Zack Wheeler AND Drew Storen tip pitches with differing deliveries: http://www.nationalsarmrace.com/?p=7080

As I agreed with you, there are pitchers who tip there pitches.

Quote:

It's a conscious action, on every pitch, to increase your arm speed on an offspeed pitch, to disguise the pitch. It's not an automatic thing.

As someone who pitched at a college level I will agree to disagree with this statement. I lived off of my changeup and splitter. Keeping my release and arm speed was key in that.

Quote:

Somewhere between the 8 or so links I've shared, I think it's safe to say that if a pitcher is highly successful, it is usually because they have eradicated any and all indicators for their pitches. For the rest of the pack, 100% autonomy just doesn't exist.

None of the links you've posted have shown that at all. You've shown cases of individuals to prove your argument. I've seen nothing that proves your original argument which was a majority of pitchers change their arm speed and release to throw a changeup.


And please, for the sake of you and I, don't post anymore links. You and I aren't going to agree on this and that's okay.

You've proven nothing to me that will make me change my mind and I haven't said anything to you that will make you change your mind.


At the end of the day we are talking about a video game. I don't really think they need to worry about the depth of this discussion at all.

[BillBixbe]

I don't run the bases, play the field, or throw. I pitch and hit. The problem for me is I don't walk enough AI batters in classic pitching. That kills a lot of the drama for me. The AI hitters are to hit happy. They don't work counts to draw walks. For me, the AI needs to become more intelligent at the plate.

[ajblithe20]

Quote: Originally Posted by BillBixbe

I don't run the bases, play the field, or throw. I pitch and hit. The problem for me is I don't walk enough AI batters in classic pitching. That kills a lot of the drama for me. The AI hitters are to hit happy. They don't work counts to draw walks. For me, the AI needs to become more intelligent at the plate.

I pitched more walks on MLB 15 than I did on any of the former games, but I'm with you on this. A few more walks per game (pitched by me) would make the stats of my games reflect actual baseball almost perfectly.

My other minor issue with gameplay are pitch counts. I'm sure it has something to do with there not being enough foul balls per at bat. I knoq some slider tweaking could help this, but maybe the default sliders this year will accurately represent the number of foul balls hit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[nomo17k]

Quote: Originally Posted by BillBixbe

I don't run the bases, play the field, or throw. I pitch and hit. The problem for me is I don't walk enough AI batters in classic pitching. That kills a lot of the drama for me. The AI hitters are to hit happy. They don't work counts to draw walks. For me, the AI needs to become more intelligent at the plate.

Quote: Originally Posted by ajblithe20

I pitched more walks on MLB 15 than I did on any of the former games, but I'm with you on this. A few more walks per game (pitched by me) would make the stats of my games reflect actual baseball almost perfectly. My other minor issue with gameplay are pitch counts. I'm sure it has something to do with there not being enough foul balls per at bat. I knoq some slider tweaking could help this, but maybe the default sliders this year will accurately represent the number of foul balls hit.

Not that I really know exactly how things will change with the new precision input engine given that I haven't tried the final implementation, but my concern with making accuracy more easily attainable (without correspondingly making harder for the gamer to be accurate to begin with) is exactly how this may affect the dynamics of walks.

It is my opinion that The Show has been the only baseball video game in which walks can naturally occur (as opposed to most other games in which walks almost never occur and/or only happen in rather contrived ways), and even then when you actually control pitching, the game has been rather unfriendly to walks (and hit-by-pitch, which almost never occur).

I think there are a couple factors as to why this is so, but one major reason has been that user input for pitching in the game allows still much higher accuracy than what real-life pitchers are able to achieve. If you know that you can always throw one in the strike zone somewhere, any time in the game, then the only time you issue walks would be when you actually do not mind issuing one. So in video games where walks do not naturally happen, typical pitch location chart looks like this:



where the variation of pitch location fluctuates only a little bit away from the intended target. In an arcade video game like this, walks are mostly not part of the game.

A real-life pitch location chart looks more like this



The Show simulates the pitch location scatter of real-life baseball reasonably well



but I don't know if this continues to be the case.

Making the outcome of user input more "deterministic" does not necessarily need to translate to the kind of results we see in the arcade game above, but I think input interface needs to be made a lot harder to hit exactly the timing/location a gamer wants, in order to simulate how difficult for real-life pitchers to hit the spot they want.

[Broomy88]

Can anyone tell me if they are bringing over the ball physics improvements from mlb 15 to mlb 16, i really liked that there were more doubles/triples in mlb 15. I really hope they don't change too much batting wise from mlb 15, anyone agree??
Or anyone think it could be even better????