NBA 2K16 Player Ratings - Top 10 Players

[rudeworld]

Quote: Originally Posted by McG

He is a great scorer, but that doesn't make him a great OVERALL player. He is a star in the NBA, no doubt about it. I just think the majority of people who know their stuff, think he doesn't do enough other than score to be considered a legit, top ten player. For a player that constantly demands double teams, his 3.1 career AST average is entirely too low, for someone who has the ball as much as he does. His defense, well we don't need to go there, but lets just say it's very average. He is a good rebounder, but that is generally because he doesn't play tight defense on the perimeter, so he's usually hovering around the paint. I think what is most obvious about Melo, in regards to overall play, is his lack of consistent effort of the defensive end. My personal opinion is this, if he got his weight down to around 220 and was in better shape, his overall game would be able to come to life. Although, at 30 and coming off of an injury I doubt after 12 years in the NBA that he is going to change now.

Not saying his assist totals shouldn't be much higher but.... the players that have surrounded him has NOT been the most consistent with the J or layups on the 1st attempts. As a knick fan I've watched him play and he's not that bad of a defender too. He plays help d and his man skills aren't as bad as people make it to be.

[cbpo]

Quote: Originally Posted by ojandpizza

I get that, but you can't measure every defensive possession and if the opponent scores or not without the other 4 players having an impact. DRPM doesn't even have its own formula, it's simply RPM - ORPM. Parker has a RPM of -3.15, and an ORPM of 0.18, that's why his DRPM is -3.33. The entire formula is based heavily on opponent points and the scoring margin. You can't dismiss the other 4 defenders on the court because there is no possible way to eliminate them from the other teams scoring output. This isn't simple statistics, you can't just eliminate 4 players impact against how many points an opposing team scored while they are on the court. The Parker example still relies on team defense, his DRPM would probably be even lower without Duncan, Kawhi, etc. because overall it's still trying to measure one players impact based on the teams defense. Because the entire stat relies purely on point differential, not individual defensive capabilities. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No man, I'm really not trying to be rude but you don't understand it at all. Also the picture you posted, taking into account teammates is the simple way of stating that it adjusts for teammates. I specifically posted what it does from the creators and I also understand statistics. Like, there's no point in arguing if you don't even believe it from their own words lol. Being able to separate the affects of teammates is entirely possible and there are many more real world situations far more complex than this, where statisticians have to develop models to eliminate variables that would otherwise skew the data. It is impossible to be perfect, but the margin for error on these things is really low.

Also what you said about DRPM being RPM - ORPM , no offense sort of elaborates on this point lol.

Of course DRPM is going to be RPM - ORPM -.-. The RPM is going to be determined by the addition of the DRPM and ORPM.... The ORPM is calculated and let's say its 1.5, and the DRPM is calculated and let's say its 2... then the RPM(real plus minus) is going to be 3.5. So obviously if you subtract the ORPM from that you're going to get DRPM... lol

It's w.e though, no point in debating, I posted elaborating from the Creator's words what the statistic does. It was the only reason why it was created since traditional BPM is skewed by teammates. It works on the opposite end of the spectrum as well. If you were to go to NBA. com and do a proper comparative analysis, you would see that the Warriors Offensive rating is like 117 with steph on the court but 103 without him. In this traditional sense that means curry would be "worth" 14 points offensively. However, this traditional stat is indeed skewed by the teammates he has on the floor.
Then if you go to ORPM which takes into this account, you get a Completely different number, much lower, with curry's being like 7.5 because it removes the skewing from his teammates that would otherwise be there.

And with your parker example its quite the contrary. Parker's DBPM is -2.2, his DRPM is -3.3

There is a difference in these two metrics. His DBPM is higher than his DRPM because his DBPM is skewed and aided by his teammates so it suggests tony parker is a better defender than he actually is. Where as his DRPM, adjusts for the affect of his teammates and shows parker is an even worse defender.

To give One last example, then im really completely done with this lol. Rockets were 6th in defensive efficiency. Harden plays 38 min a game so with his defensive numbers being skewed by the defensive strength of his teammates, having ariza, dwight, josh smith etc his Defensive Box Plus Minus(DBPM) is 1.0 suggesting harden is a good defender. Now while, he definitely improved alot vs the previous year where he was abysmal he still isn't a good defender. Now if you take a look at his DRPM, it's -.16 suggesting he's a below average defender like he is. Once again, literally the only purpose of the creation of DRPM was to eliminate the variables of teammates as much as humanly possible.

Its why someone like Michael-Kidd-Gilchrist has a DRPM of 3.6 and meanwhile Kemba Walker has a DRPM of -2, despite them both playing a majority of their minutes together but then if you look at their DBPM MKG is only 1.3 while Kemba Walker's is .1 This is WORLD's apart, If you looked only at their DBPM the difference between the two in defensive value would be only 1.2 but if you look at their DRPM it's 5.6 because once again it eliminates the skew of strength of teammates/opponents.

If that doesn't demonstrate what it does then it's impossible to convince you lol. It appears you just don't understand "how" they're able to eliminate the affects of teammates, which is indeed a complex process but creating a model for that wouldn't be that difficult for a statistician especially with the technology the NBA has it's disposal now.

[Jonjon22]

You guys can argue all you want about curry being a good defender but the fact of the matter is he almost never guards the opposing teams best point guard. When he goes up against the likes of John wall, Derrick rose, Russell Westbrook, Chris Paul, Mike Conley etc 9/10 times klay is on them. Curry's defense gets expose when he goes up against those guards. It's easier to get steals/gamble when one of the best defender on your team ( klay Thompson) is doing your job. I don't like bashing curry because he's one of the top 3 best point guards in the game. But to say he's an above average defender is ludicrous. He Has Improved On That End On The court no doubt about that. But he's average at most Chris paul and Westbrook are better on that end of the floor.

[cbpo]

Quote: Originally Posted by Jonjon22

You guys can argue all you want about curry being a good defender but the fact of the matter is he almost never guards the opposing teams best point guard. When he goes up against the likes of John wall, Derrick rose, Russell Westbrook, Chris Paul, Mike Conley etc 9/10 times klay is on them. Curry's defense gets expose when he goes up against those guards. It's easier to get steals/gamble when one of the best defender on your team ( klay Thompson) is doing your job. I don't like bashing curry because he's one of the top 3 best point guards in the game. But to say he's an above average defender is ludicrous. He Has Improved On That End On The court no doubt about that. But he's average at most Chris paul and Westbrook are better on that end of the floor.

The main issue is that, as an observer we are really only paying attention to 1 on 1 basketball. Curry "overall" is an above average defender but if we're talking about strictly on ball defense or 1 on 1 defense then yes he is slightly below average and the data shows that. If you look at defensive iso stats curry is like in the 47th% for guards. Where he makes up for this though is his off-ball and team D. On ball D is only one aspect of defense and unless you're playing against westbrook, there's only a handful of situations that the point guard is going to be isolating 1 on 1. Ability to guard the pick and roll, denying your man, recognizing and making the right rotations are all apart of defense and even more important and you don't have to be very athletic to do so you just need high IQ. Aka Tim duncan being an elite defender despite being the most physically ungifted bigman. Curry is definitely a below average - average at best on ball defender due in part to his athleticism and size, and klay is a solid on ball defender so it makes sense for him to guard the best opposing guard.

Where curry makes up for it though is his team defense IQ.

People literally only think about on ball D when talking about defense for guards which is a huge problem. Someone like chris paul, is an elite on ball defender but then if you follow him off-ball he often loses his man and overplays the passing lanes. And the data shows where CP3 is #1 among PG's in Defensive ISO PPP but not the case for his overall defensive body of work.

[Real2KInsider]

Quote: Originally Posted by Jonjon22

You guys can argue all you want about curry being a good defender but the fact of the matter is he almost never guards the opposing teams best point guard.

1. This is not factually accurate.
2. There is more to NBA defense than playing 1v1. This is not the 90s, it isn't even the 2000s. Curry's overall defense improved because he reads passing lanes much better (significantly better than someone like Tony Parker ever did).

Quote:

But to say he's an above average defender is ludicrous.

I don't think you have much of a concept of what an "average defender" at the PG position looks like. The vast majority are NEGATIVE defenders.

Quote:

He Has Improved On That End On The court no doubt about that. But he's average at most Chris paul and Westbrook are better on that end of the floor.

Paul is a bit overrated defensively. He might be the best SMALL defender in the league due to his IQ/toughness, but at the end of the day he still has all the same limitations as Ty Lawson, Isaiah Thomas, J.J. Barea, Aaron Brooks, Tony Parker, etc (the bad side of that spectrum)...

Westbrook did not defend very well this year given that he exerted more energy on offense than usual. Of course, Curry took a leap on BOTH ends this year so it's not exactly a great excuse.

[ojandpizza]

But my point is that the DRPM doesn't actually calculate anything he does individually on defensive. Whatever they do to remove his teammates impacts still doesn't change the fact that the stat itself is point differential based.

It still just gives the impact of how much better/worse the TEAM defense is with Curry on the court. Which like I said before doesn't always correlate to Curry being a great individual defensive factor. It could be due to offense, runs, momentum, etc. the stat is so largely skewed on point differential, and GS averaged the largest differential in the league.





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[ojandpizza]

Quote: Originally Posted by cbpo

The main issue is that, as an observer we are really only paying attention to 1 on 1 basketball. Curry "overall" is an above average defender but if we're talking about strictly on ball defense or 1 on 1 defense then yes he is slightly below average and the data shows that. If you look at defensive iso stats curry is like in the 47th% for guards. Where he makes up for this though is his off-ball and team D. On ball D is only one aspect of defense and unless you're playing against westbrook, there's only a handful of situations that the point guard is going to be isolating 1 on 1. Ability to guard the pick and roll, denying your man, recognizing and making the right rotations are all apart of defense and even more important and you don't have to be very athletic to do so you just need high IQ. Aka Tim duncan being an elite defender despite being the most physically ungifted bigman. Curry is definitely a below average - average at best on ball defender due in part to his athleticism and size, and klay is a solid on ball defender so it makes sense for him to guard the best opposing guard. Where curry makes up for it though is his team defense IQ. People literally only think about on ball D when talking about defense for guards which is a huge problem. Someone like chris paul, is an elite on ball defender but then if you follow him off-ball he often loses his man and overplays the passing lanes. And the data shows where CP3 is #1 among PG's in Defensive ISO PPP but not the case for his overall defensive body of work.

But you can't play great overall team defense without being on a great defensive team. Curry definitely benefits from that.

And defense is definitely more than just on ball man defense and off ball team defense. Westbrook playing passing lanes, versatility on two positions, forcing turnovers, and defensive rebounding all play factors as well.


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[cbpo]

Quote: Originally Posted by ojandpizza

But my point is that the DRPM doesn't actually calculate anything he does individually on defensive. Whatever they do to remove his teammates impacts still doesn't change the fact that the stat itself is point differential based. It still just gives the impact of how much better/worse the TEAM defense is with Curry on the court. Which like I said before doesn't always correlate to Curry being a great individual defensive factor. It could be due to offense, runs, momentum, etc. the stat is so largely skewed on point differential, and GS averaged the largest differential in the league. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

To an extent this is true but it's the only possible way to measure. Something that measures individually would be like defensive win shares or some crap. But over the course of an 82 game season it does extract his "individual" contribution. The stat actually isn't largely skewed by point differential at all lol. It's w/e though don't really care anymore. It is def by far by far the best metric for measuring defense we have today. I have said I completely agree curry is below average on ball defender but that makes up such a small part of defense and all people seem to pay attention to. Both from advanced stats and the eye test if you watch curry off the ball, he's working hard and playing good D, much better than most point guards.

Curry forces as many turnovers as westbrook all while not gambling and losing his man often like westbrook does. Westbrook is NOT a good defender, and his DRPM is negative and typically is despite thunder usually being top 6 defense. I was the biggest iverson fan yet he was in no way a good defender despite getting an insane amount of steals. Part of the reason he gets rebounds is because of this as well lol. It's like the kevin love affect on T-wolves, there was a bunch of data and videos showing how kevin love would get a ridiculous amount of rebounds because he simply wouldn't contest shots. Part of it is definitely westbrook's motor and athleticism but it def is aided by him just roaming around on D. Does westbrook have the tools to be a better defender? Obviously, but really doesn't mean anything if he's not applying them.

An example of westbrook off-ball effort - http://www.sbnation.com/2015/4/8/837...-injuries-2015

He literally just completely leaves harden and stands under the basket trying to get a rebound without any care. Free 3 points giving up.