Axis Football 2015 Announced, July 15 Release Date on Steam

[mvb34]

Reminds me of FBpro series.. I could get onboard with this if they willing to expand multiples season, player draft and devolvement..

[fistofrage]

I'll support it for nothing else than it gives me an option besides Madden. Ideally modders will get access to enough tools to do some things with it as well. Get a good modding community together and the skies the limit.

I don't really care about graphics as much as gameplay and realism. I'll have to see how the game plays and what stats and scores look like, but at least its a start.

[roadman]

I would normally support the effort, but only have XP on my machine.

[Hooe]

Quote: Originally Posted by roadman

I would normally support the effort, but only have XP on my machine.

A bit OT, but - I strongly suggest that you upgrade to a newer operating system if you are able to do so; Microsoft stopped issuing security updates for WinXP and support of XP in general as of April 2014.

[Travan]

This basically looks like Madden 2002 only not as good.

[roadman]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

A bit OT, but - I strongly suggest that you upgrade to a newer operating system if you are able to do so; Microsoft stopped issuing security updates for WinXP and support of XP in general as of April 2014.

I know, but probably won't for about 6 months to a year.(2 kids in college before dad upgrades)

[bringbacksimfootball]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

I've said it before, and I'm sure I'll say it again in the future - Kickstarter is not a charity.

No one said or implied it was a charity...

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

I get rooting for the underdogs, and I wish things worked out for them more often. I was once in a similar position. When I was working as a developer with SRRN Games, an independent game studio in Richmond VA, we were having a rough fiscal year in 2012 and were hoping for a turnaround hinging on a game design we were trying to kickstart. However, the KS campaign failed. It wasn't the video game community's fault that it failed, it was ours.

I'm also sure the game you were working on wasn't in a genre where there was only one solitary game to choose from... for 10+ years. I'm sure the game wasn't in a "community" where thousands of videos were made complaining and finding flaws with that one game, thousands more comparing that one game to old games of the same genre that were better, and thousands of posts all doing the same, year, after year, after year after year.

So it makes more sense for something to fail when it's not desperately needed due to their being plenty of other options. It's a totally different thing for something to fail because the same people who complain every single day for years on end won't spend a penny, tear it down because it doesn't look as good as a big budget AAA title, and then go back to complaining that they have no options.

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

We didn't have enough of the game ready to show the world for the KS campaign as to inspire confidence in our product, even having successfully launched games - and reasonably well-reviewed games at that - published by known names in the industry such as Konami and 7-Sixty (a subdivision of SouthPeak Games) and/or independently. We also didn't get the word out strongly enough to draw the attention needed to succeed. It was our first time trying a KS campaign, and we learned a lot from that failure.

Sure, and yet there were KS campaigns that showed plenty and got the word out well, and still didn't get funded.

The reality is that most people who claim to be hardcore and part of the so-called "community" are simply apathetic complainers who enjoy complaining rather than helping bring about a solution, and they won't spend a dime unless the game is on the graphical level of Madden, because as much as many claim they're all about gameplay, at the end of the day eye-candy and brand names really are more important to them (you said it yourself). After all, if all of those people were all about sim gameplay as they claim, then All-Pro Football wouldn't have sold a mere 430,000 copies, because to date, no football game has ever had better sim gameplay than All-Pro Football. I knew APF didn't look great, and still I was first in line when the game dropped and I still play it to this day. Why? Sim gameplay.

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

That I'd never heard of Axis Games before yesterday is ********* of the problem; I never knew Axis Football was a series until yesterday, I certainly didn't know of any Axis Football crowdfunding campaign on Kickstarter. Is that really the community's fault? Or is it the studio's fault for not doing everything it can to effectively get attention for its brand?

I don't know. Seems hard to not have run into Axis at some point over the years, but even something popular isn't going to be known by everybody.

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

Looking at the 2013 Axis Football Kickstarter itself (I found it with a Google search), the 2D game prominently shown has crude visuals and gameplay as well. Whether we like it or not, graphics absolutely matter, and the 2D game was on the low end of the graphics quality scale and wasn't attempting any particular retro aesthetic either; it just looked bad. Games can be 2D and look good, just look at Dave Murray's successfully-Kickstarted Gridiron Heroes, for example.

I don't feel like Dave Murray's thing is any shining example of anything quite frankly. Just a derivative whatever that he got thousands of dollars for and never turned out a finished product. I also don't think it looks good at all. It's just a total non-factor in my eyes. If I wanted to play Tecmo Bowl, I could already do that and play a complete working version at that.

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

Further, Axis didn't provide nearly enough footage of the 3D game in the KS information to inspire confidence in the new product; it's basically all stills of 3D geometry in the Unity editor. The KS campaign we attempted with SRRN had far more than that - concept art, in-dev screenshots and videos, a free retro-styled game alongside the KS campaign to promote the KS effort - and even all that wasn't enough because we didn't have a full game to show and my boss's name wasn't Tim Schaefer to make up for that fact.

While I agree that his page was thin, I honestly doubt more would've made much of a difference. It seems like the only stuff that gets funded there football-wise are goofy knock-offs of Tecmo-style/Blitz-style games (Gridiron Heroes, Football Heroes, Gridiron Thunder) and even though Mutant League didn't get funded, it sure got a ton of money/pledges. Arcade/nostalgia gamers show up and spend money, sim gamers sit on their hands and complain waiting for the perfect golden goose to be served to them. The numbers bear out that reality.

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

I'm all for backing indie game developers - I am one. However, there also has to be some personal accountability when things don't work out. It's absolutely not the community's fault that there aren't other compelling options in the football gaming space.

It's been so long and there have been so many different efforts, as far as I'm concerned, everyone is accountable now.

But I'll tell you this; I'd put my money on Danny Jugan any day of the week. People like him create for a living, yes, but there is a labor of love there, and people who are talented AND love what they do can make something special. All they need is backing, and that usually is the one barrier to their greatness being realized.

[Hooe]

Long post warning.

tl;dr - I don't think there are truly that many "sim" football gamers completely disillusioned with Madden NFL to the extent of the Operation Sports forum population, I don't think "sim" gameplay is a kingmaker or the only measure of quality in the sports video game space, and I don't think the expectation that dissatisfied consumers support an alternative to Madden NFL just because the alternative exists is reasonable.

---

Quote: Originally Posted by bringbacksimfootball

No one said or implied it was a charity...

Then what of this idea that gamers should give their money to something just for the sake of having an alternative, if not an implication of charity?

That's effectively your premise here - that the sim community has an obligation to give this or some other non-Madden simulation-style football game money solely because these other games aren't Madden and it's your opinion that the market needs something that isn't Madden. I don't think that expectation of consumers a reasonable one. Why should any gamer, sim or not, fork over money to a game he doesn't think will hold his interest for a reasonable period of time or for a product he doesn't think is worth his cash? Why should anyone fork over their money to something he feels is an inferior product compared to the one he already knows (however many gripes he has with it)?

The idea behind buying a game is to play said game and to enjoy it on its own merits, not to take down some false bogeyman. This is recreation and leisure, not a war.

Quote:

I'm also sure the game you were working on wasn't in a genre where there was only one solitary game to choose from... for 10+ years. I'm sure the game wasn't in a "community" where thousands of videos were made complaining and finding flaws with that one game, thousands more comparing that one game to old games of the same genre that were better, and thousands of posts all doing the same, year, after year, after year after year.

You are correct, the game SRRN Games was attempting to kickstart was not attempting to serve the simulation sports genre. That does not mean the same lessons don't apply or that my experience with Kickstarter is not relevant.

If there's anyone else out there who has experience running a video game Kickstarter, perhaps someone with more relevant experience running a sports game Kickstarter, I invite him or her to chime in to add a second data point.

Quote:

So it makes more sense for something to fail when it's not desperately needed due to their being plenty of other options. It's a totally different thing for something to fail because the same people who complain every single day for years on end won't spend a penny, tear it down because it doesn't look as good as a big budget AAA title, and then go back to complaining that they have no options.

That Madden keeps selling copies and other console and PC football simulation-style football games enter and leave the market without gaining any traction tells me that there is no desperate need for an alternative.

I don't think this "sim" audience demanding an alternative is as big as you say it is. I think it's a small number of dedicated people who feel personally wronged by things entirely outside of their control and won't leave good enough alone. I say that while readily admitting that I don't like the exclusivity business either, but there's nothing I can do about it and I have gotten my money's worth out of Madden NFL the past few years so instead I suppose I'm part of the problem.

Quote:

The reality is that most people who claim to be hardcore and part of the so-called "community" are simply apathetic complainers who enjoy complaining rather than helping bring about a solution, and they won't spend a dime unless the game is on the graphical level of Madden, because as much as many claim they're all about gameplay, at the end of the day eye-candy and brand names really are more important to them (you said it yourself). After all, if all of those people were all about sim gameplay as they claim, then All-Pro Football wouldn't have sold a mere 430,000 copies, because to date, no football game has ever had better sim gameplay than All-Pro Football. I knew APF didn't look great, and still I was first in line when the game dropped and I still play it to this day. Why? Sim gameplay.

All-Pro Football was at-worst competent graphically in stills, and animation-wise it was quite fluid. It was certainly AAA quality and graphically could easily stand up to any of its contemporaries at the time. It didn't fail because of not being shiny or not having real players, it failed on its own gameplay merits; the game was as shallow as a puddle once the on-field football part was done with very few options, and presumably many on the fence about it didn't justify the $60 purchase on that accord.

I would begin to suggest that "sim" gameplay isn't a kingmaker in the football space, or even the sports space in general given the successes of games like NBA JAM, Blitz: The League, or more recently Super Mega Baseball. I offer the alternative and in my opinion more reasonable reality that anyone who truly cared about "sim football" bought All Pro Football (it's the only notable "sim" style post-exclusive alternative to Madden to-date) and no one else did.

Quote:

I don't know. Seems hard to not have run into Axis at some point over the years, but even something popular isn't going to be known by everybody.

I suppose experiences vary, but looking at their portfolio I have heard of literally zero games they have made. Perhaps more telling, SRRN Games has more games listed on Metacritic than Axis Games (eight to one, and they're missing the one that we did which Konami published). Were SRRN Games big shots? No, absolutely not. But we apparently got our name out there much better than a studio with more released titles (and we enjoyed at least one well-received title with one of our games cracking six-figure downloads and winning a few awards from smaller outlets) and a six-year head-start (SRRN was founded in 2009, Axis Games claims a founding of 2003).

Quote:

I don't feel like Dave Murray's thing is any shining example of anything quite frankly. Just a derivative whatever that he got thousands of dollars for and never turned out a finished product. I also don't think it looks good at all. It's just a total non-factor in my eyes. If I wanted to play Tecmo Bowl, I could already do that and play a complete working version at that.

My point in bringing up Gridiron Heroes - despite having crude 2D graphics like Axis Football, Gridiron Heroes had a distinct and consistent aesthetic which every asset in the game adheres to; it absolutely was trying to be a love letter to the old-school arcade style football game. The designer of the interface, game art, music, sounds, game mechanics, and game balancing - presumably Murray for all of that - quite obviously took a lot of care into replicating the retro feel of the older games. Quite frankly, in my opinion he nailed that feel. There is plenty of value in unity of design, and just because something has retro stylings and obvious influences does not make it a rip-off or rob it of any potential value.

Conversely, Axis Football doesn't have that same sense of unity of design; the original 2D game doesn't necessarily look bad, but it looks overwhelmingly generic and there is nothing in the visual department to write home about. Other one-person indie games have done much better in this aspect, Gridiron Heroes among them.

Tangentially related, I don't think it's logically consistent on your part to commend the passion and craft of one independent game developer for attempting to make a football game and not offer those same regards to another. They have different approaches, but they are pursuing the same ends.

Quote:

While I agree that his page was thin, I honestly doubt more would've made much of a difference. It seems like the only stuff that gets funded there football-wise are goofy knock-offs of Tecmo-style/Blitz-style games (Gridiron Heroes, Football Heroes, Gridiron Thunder) and even though Mutant League didn't get funded, it sure got a ton of money/pledges. Arcade/nostalgia gamers show up and spend money, sim gamers sit on their hands and complain waiting for the perfect golden goose to be served to them. The numbers bear out that reality.

Again - perhaps there aren't as many "sim gamers" as you thought.

Even still, if a sim gamer is unhappy with Madden, why would he buy something where the AI looks like it's running at the level of a PSX game, being generous? Isn't the on-field CPU intelligence one of the most important components of the simulation football experience?

I applaud the effort of the single-man team - I really do, he's certainly ambitious - but if the idea is to top Madden, Axis Football doesn't begin to approach the lofty standards set either Tiburon or Visual Concepts, and a single person is never going to be able to meet that bar. It's asking way too much.

Quote:

I'll tell you this; I'd put my money on Danny Jugan any day of the week. People like him create for a living, yes, but there is a labor of love there, and people who are talented AND love what they do can make something special. All they need is backing, and that usually is the one barrier to their greatness being realized.

You don't have to tell me that game development is a labor of love. I actively know it at present and I've known it for going on a decade now between class and club projects, professional labors, and personal time spent. I most certainly respect the effort.

That said, a game developer will only receive commercial backing when he produces something people want to buy. That's how any entertainment product business works. There are no hand-outs, and it's not a charity.