If NBA Live Has a Future, It Has to Look Radically Different

[23]

...and for the record coming in here with more 2k stuff has no bearing on the article at hand and its off topic.

This game has enough issues within itself and im sorry WTF... there are a ton of things that have been shown already that isnt fixed with synergy that are expoloitable in itself that shouldn't be there.

You guys can keep picking on other games and ignoring the flaws in this one all day, but the truth of the matter is, this one is the only nex gen game in danger of falling off the map at this point.

[WTF]

Quote: Originally Posted by Boilerbuzz

Kingpnp drive video shows ball and legs warping through defenders. How can you claim you don't see it? I wouldn't BEGIN to claim the game is perfect. But, again, you make it a point to post this stuff about 2K, but none of any such posts on Live. THAT is my issue. And you can't tell me this does happen in Live. You continue to qualify that statement by just stopping at animations and graphics. And anyone actually PLAYING the game knows it goes much further than visuals. But you guys keep painting this as people that don't like the game only care about visuals. And that's bs. I do see the good. But I don't ignore the bad. You seem to be doing that. Again, outside of visuals, you've yet to acknowledge the bad in gameplay that is STILL there and just as bad, if not worse, than what you'd see in 2k. Again, this feels like an emotional vendetta. By the way, if toe games have a goal to simulate basketball, then by nature, they have mirroring goals. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

I'll respond to this, but that's basically it. I'll continue to tell what I see, and provide my input to those who may be interested in trying it with the updates.

The kingpnp drive was made prior to bug fix 1.02. It could be one of the small bugs that was fixed. The past game that I played, I threw several passes that hit my own guys, and didn't go through them, hit them just like it should. I shouldn't have tried to pass through them. If I pump fake close to someone, the ball hits their body and gets deflected. Doesn't go through them. Thats what I'm seeing.

I've never said that Live doesn't have issues. It doesnt' have the same issues that 2k has. If it did, I wouldn't be playing it. If you think it has issues, then that's your prerogative. No issue with that. But to tell me that I "HAVE" to see it, well, I'm sorry to disappoint.

"Anyone actually playing the game"... I think that statement would include me, since I've probably played as much as, or more than anyone on the forums right now. I'm seeing good AI decisions by both my teammates and the CPU AI. I see a LOT more right, than I do wrong. But again, if you don't, that's fine. I'll enjoy my game with what I'm seeing.

Two games can "mirror" the same subject all they want, with different interpretations of how to achieve the result. I don't want control taken away from me. I don't want rebounds warping to people just because they're a good rebounder. I want to be in position, box out, and earn a rebound. I don't want a game to be closely contested because the game thinks it should. Do you all see a Comeback logic? Maybe not. But I do. As do quite a few others. Does it exist? Maybe, maybe not. All we can go by is what we seen on our own screens, during our own playtime with a game.

With that said, I'm done responding to defend my position with the game. I'll continue to post what I see right and wrong. If the devs choose to listen to those, and use them moving forward, then great. But I'm providing something rather than "This game sucks..." "RIP Live"..."Should probably just cancel"..."Series is done". That's what this forum was littered with.

With that said, here is a list of the initial thoughts on the game that I sent to the EA Sports team:

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-Sliders, the game needs sliders. Adding sliders allows each individual player to customize the game to their liking and their individual playstyle. Including Speed/Quickness.

-Custom cameras, like above, a camera is one of the key factors in immersion for some gamers. Without the ability to tailor the camera to your liking, the ability to become immersed in the game is more difficult. Should be fairly simple.

-Practice Gym
The game needs a practice gym. You have a new dribbling system in place, there is no reason not to have a hands on, teaching tutorial. We need a Bouncetek practice, post play practice, and just general shootaround. If possible, a scrimmage type practice where you can practice plays as well. This should be one of the easier things to "patch"/accomplish.

-Editing Players/Rosters
This is vital. Ratings and player appearance are two things that are subjective. The NBA Live community has done wonders for the past releases. Taking NBA Live 06 for example, a game that was nearly unplayable when it was first released, was made semi-playable due to roster and slider tweaks from our very own community. Player ratings, signature shots and dribble packages, as well as appearance (hairstyle if available), accessories, etc should be available for edit.

-Player textures, should be pretty consistent whether in replay or in actual gameplay. One of the "ugly" parts of the game come when playing the game with the downgraded textures. I'm unsure if there would be more framerate issues with the game if they weren't downgraded, but the difference between zoomed in and out is vastly different.

-Animations- I'm a mixed bag on the animations that are in the game. The dribbling animations are nice, the walking and walking the ball up the floor are really well done. The issues within the animation department are:
A- Not enough transition animations (see dribbling with Bouncetek going into a shot, there is a hitch)
B- Contact animations in the post and driving/dunks/layups are lacking. I know some are in the game, however there are no variety here.
C- Layups & Dunks, like above are severely lacking. The ones that are present, save for a few, are jerky and not fluid. Some of the big men dunks are done fairly well, but the vast majority of one handed and athletic dunks are far too jerky/lifeless/stiff. It doesn't look like a human movement, it looks like a scripted element if that makes sense.

-Ball physics/interaction
This is one of the biggest issues that I have with the game currently. The ball/rim interaction is putrid to say the least. It takes unrealistic bounces off of the rim, the trajectory after leaving a shooters hand is incorrect, and overall it just feels poorly done. I've not seen 1 jump shot go in that hit the rim first. I've seen several layups roll around the rim, but even then its so unnatural that it looks rough. This is one of the toughest things to stomach while playing as well.

-Commentary
Needs a vast overhaul. It has "emotion" supposedly, but it's not fluid and feels terribly scripted. I hit a game winner in one of my games, and their reaction was laughable at best. I know this is something that's really out of the Dev Teams control, it's up to the voice talent to put forth an effort to make it enthusiastic. Jalen Rose is absolutely terrible and stiff/rigid during his intros/half time reports. I know this is going to be a year to year project, so I can't complain too much about it. What's there this year, will not continue to be acceptable in a next gen Grade A sports title.

-Arena Audio
Need some arena specific audio. Indy's race car, MSG's organ, etc. It just adds to the immersion.

-Control Responsiveness
This is hit or miss, and it makes the game feel "sluggish". Sometimes, the players move/act on my button press. Sometimes I press the button and wait. The game needs to be responsive at all times. I'm not sure if this is something that you all can track down or not. Sometimes a pass is made from the wing to the top of the key, and I will move my defender towards the passing lane, press the steal button, only for it to not react. Some times I press block/jump, and nothing happens. It's hit or miss. It's a fully charged brand new PS4 Controller, so I don't think it's simply the controller.

-Synergy
One of the intro screens discusses Synergy and the 70+ abilities and stats that they will use to keep the game current, updated an hour after each game is played. However, when you play the game, you see "Point Guard" taking the place of an actual player on the bench. Several lineups are incorrect including the Kings trade acquiring Derrick Williams. If it updates on the hour, it needs to include trades and rotations.

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PROS

-Play Calling System
This is one of the most innovative play calling systems that I've seen yet. The use of the modifier and d-pad work excellent, and the amount of options/coaching levels that are integrated is excellent. Kudos on this one.

-Adaptive AI
Playing the game against the Cavs, I saw a Screen coming, tried to go around it before he was set, and instead of using the screen, Kyrie went baseline for the easy layup. It read my defense, and adapted. Very nice.

2 games later, same situation, Steph Curry negated the screen, went baseline for an easy score. The next time down the floor, I shaded towards the baseline, this time he used the screen and set up for the easy 18' wide open jumper. It was a thing of beauty (other than the animations).

-Defensive Options/Schemes
Again, kudos to the team on this. The ability to choose your matchups, how you play the individual matchup, help options, screen options, etc is truly well done.

-Bouncetek
Even though I'm not 100% familiar with all of the things that you can do (practice mode needed), the system feels innovative and responsive. Expanding to more players in the league, or the ability to customize each player with the levels of their dribble would be great.

-Big Moments
This mode is excellent in theory. If the animations and things above were fixed, this would breathe a new life into sometimes otherwise monotonous sports titles. Very nice game mode.

-Cloth animation
I know, this may seem like a small "victory" here, but I feel that the cloth animation is actually pretty well done. Going back and looking at some screens, the wrinkles in the jerseys of players are often not in the same static place, creating a more natural looking screen shot. Even in movement, the jerseys and shorts look to fit the players better than most other sports titles on the market.

-Presentation
The games ESPN integration (other than commentary) is truly well done. The overlays, swipes, menus, everything is streamlined and well thought out.

-Crowd
Crowd reacts and animates pretty well. No real downfall here. The booing of visiting players is really well done. If you hit a big shot, you feel like you hit a big shot watching the crowd jump. It's enough variety where it doesn't look like the same static person over and over.

-Bench/Warmups
Probably an overlooked portion of the immersion, I really appreciate the fact that some guys will have their full warmups on, some just jersey and shorts, and others shorts and warmup top. The difference really adds to the atmosphere and visual appeal of the sidelines. The mascots are also really well done.

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I do know that some of the items on the list have been addressed. The controller responsiveness and the Synergy updates are working as late as yesterday. When I noticed the Kings/Wolves trade was in, I played, and there were several things that were updated, felt much better. The players don't move sluggish any longer. That was apparent even playing the demo after Synergy kicked in.

I had a long list of things that I had issue with. And some of them are getting addressed already. Bug fixes. Currently on 1.02. Hopefully we'll see some more issues getting ironed out.

The game was nowhere near perfect. It's gotten a LOT better, and I'm seeing more and more that I LOVE about the under the hood game that's going on.

If it's not for you, it's not. But don't tell me how to or how not to enjoy my game, and don't tell me what I am or am not seeing.

[WTF]

Quote: Originally Posted by 23

...and for the record coming in here with more 2k stuff has no bearing on the article at hand and its off topic. This game has enough issues within itself and im sorry WTF... there are a ton of things that have been shown already that isnt fixed with synergy that are expoloitable in itself that shouldn't be there. You guys can keep picking on other games and ignoring the flaws in this one all day, but the truth of the matter is, this one is the only nex gen game in danger of falling off the map at this point.

If it does, then it does. I'm not seeing the issues that apparently I'm supposed to see. There have been 2 updates thus far, with daily updates on the Synergy front. I'm seeing stuff that I should have been seeing all along with every basketball game since Inside Drive. And I haven't seen these things. That's why they haven't held my attention.

If this game changes to be more like 2k, then I'll shake my head and move along. I don't have a lot of time to game. Unfortunately I have a lot of obligations as a father, husband, professional... my gaming time has dwindled. I don't have the patience to put up with a lot of stuff when I'm trying to relax and enjoy a game.

So far, I've not had the occurrence that has made me shut down the PS4 because of an ignorant event in Live 14. If it inevitably happens as you all think it will, then that's fine. But right now, I'll continue to state what I like, and what I see on the game.

If the game gets buried, never to see the light of day, then I guess my comments go with it Thus is life.

[Boilerbuzz]

Quote: Originally Posted by WTF

I'll respond to this, but that's basically it.

Note, the post was made before I saw your PM. We're square.

[WTF]

No worries.

[23]

Quote: Originally Posted by WTF

If it does, then it does. I'm not seeing the issues that apparently I'm supposed to see. There have been 2 updates thus far, with daily updates on the Synergy front. I'm seeing stuff that I should have been seeing all along with every basketball game since Inside Drive. And I haven't seen these things. That's why they haven't held my attention. If this game changes to be more like 2k, then I'll shake my head and move along. I don't have a lot of time to game. Unfortunately I have a lot of obligations as a father, husband, professional... my gaming time has dwindled. I don't have the patience to put up with a lot of stuff when I'm trying to relax and enjoy a game. So far, I've not had the occurrence that has made me shut down the PS4 because of an ignorant event in Live 14. If it inevitably happens as you all think it will, then that's fine. But right now, I'll continue to state what I like, and what I see on the game. If the game gets buried, never to see the light of day, then I guess my comments go with it Thus is life.

Well again, we've had 6 games on the market at once before and they all played differently, so no it doesn't have to be 2k.

That said, what it is now bad anatomy, bad movement, and the rest of what it is, outside of you guys talking this game is about dead to the world, and if they release another game looking just like this one in the overall package it'll be shipping DOA

Its been almost a decade and that right there should tell anyone if they can't get it together in that much time its over.

[ianlast]

The NBA Live story is one of the more fascinating tales of self-sabotage in sports gaming history.

Allowing Mike Wang to leave their studio and having David Littman produce their next title (Elite 11) has to rank as one of the most colossal blunders EA has ever made. At this point, I would chalk it up to a corporate decision that saw the sales numbers without any sort of context, the context being that Live's product quality was for once on the upswing, and that the sales numbers were a simple reflection of Live needing to gradually rebuild goodwill with consumers.

I'd love to hire some of these EA bigwigs to build me a backyard pool, boy oh boy are they good at digging themselves deeper. Chris makes an extremely good point in the article; to paraphrase in my own words, had Live 14 been nothing more than a 1080p port of Live 10 with updated rosters, courts and uniforms, that would have represented a solid first step for Live's revival. Instead, the series is just further circling the drain by releasing this broken, unfinished product. Absolutely inexcusable when they had a perfectly functional and enjoyable product three years ago. Smh.

[Boilerbuzz]

Quote: Originally Posted by ianlast

Allowing Mike Wang to leave their studio and having David Littman produce their next title (Elite 11) has to rank as one of the most colossal blunders EA has ever made. At this point, I would chalk it up to a corporate decision that saw the sales numbers without any sort of context, the context being that Live's product quality was for once on the upswing, and that the sales numbers were a simple reflection of Live needing to gradually rebuild goodwill with consumers.

Two things. I don't think they "allowed" Mike to leave. He chose to go back to a place that had the work environment he preferred. Secondly, at some point, the EA culture finds that "guy" and from there - it's ride or die. If it's die, they move to another "guy". First it was Wang, then it was Littman, now it's O'Brien/O'Gallagher. And if this fails, all of the blame will go to those guys. And I think that's just wrong.