Thoughts on NBA 2K14 Pick and Roll Improvements (Da_Czar)

[qpc123]

Quote: Originally Posted by vannwolfhawk

High school it works great! Actually you do see alot of this in college as there is no 3 seconds in the paint on defense. You will see Michigan st, gonzaga, Virginia to name a few use this same type of defense in the PNR. Obviously they throw multiple different looks though too. The key in all levels is stopping the pg from penetrating and depends on a good hedge or not. You need to work hard against teams that run alot of high PNR. Hedger needs to beat the picker to the spot. NBA you see a little but it's tough with defensive 3 second rule as you can't just camp out in the paint like you can in college or high school. My philosophy is pack the paint and make a team beat us from deep. If they go 15-20 from 3 point range it just wasn't our day. But obviously we won't leave the same hot shooter open either. But I'll live with the percentages of shots outside the paint as opposed to in it. So we help more drastically than most teams. But that being said, I think NBA off ball defense is for the most part horrible! To many players taking plays off and standing straight up. That drives me crazy! That's why I prefer the college game over the NBA regular season personally. Better offense and defense and generally better basketball all together...

I believe the reason you see help defense rotate the way the they do in 2k14 and in the NBA is largely due to the corner three being a closer shot in the NBA while in college/high school the three point line is same distance from all locations. If you are going to rotate away from a shooter, do it from one that generally has lower chance of making a shot from that location.

[vannwolfhawk]

Quote: Originally Posted by qpc123

I believe the reason you see help defense rotate the way the they do in 2k14 and in the NBA is largely due to the corner three being a closer shot in the NBA while in college/high school the three point line is same distance from all locations. If you are going to rotate away from a shooter, do it from one that generally has lower chance of making a shot from that location.

The thing is though, lets say the top defender takes away the roll man just like in the video and the pg passes to the sg at the 3 point top of key/wing on the opposite weak side. Who has to pick him up and rotate? The corner 3 players defender has to rotate for help which in turn leads to a corner 3 anyways as the sg makes the extra pass to the corner offensive player. Once you rotate like this you start scrambling everywhere. Once you start scrambling something eventually opens up (unless your a Jim Laranaga coached team).

Bottom line is NBA point guards and players are so smart you need to throw multiple looks at them all game. It's almost impossible to stop guys like chris Paul and tony Parker. Look at how Parker ate up Miami last year in turn how Danny green went off with open 3 after open 3. Later in the series Miami adjusted and green wasn't getting those looks he had early in the series.

Ffaacc03 said it earlier with lets get multiple defensive schemes in the game. Hopefully in the next couple years we can see some different variations of how we could defend a PNR or ISO or even a post up! I loved that we had the choice in 2k12 to send a double with any player you wanted. I'd send the double on a post up and i'd switch to weak side defender playing the weak help side. At least you could mix up your defenses sort of by having that 1 feature in for double teams. I guess now that I think about it you could do that on PNR as well with coaching settings set to hedge and go over or under and then just play off ball defense. I think i just had an epiphany! Maybe I need to rethink how I play defense in 2k and on the PNR! Lol

[Da_Czar]

Quote: Originally Posted by svit

@DaCzar: great breakdown and giving basics of PNR spacing in offense and defense rotation. But I don't share your opinion about better spacing in 2k14. It's better than 2k13 for sure, but it's not good spacing. As we can see in the first example, Bargniani is setting the screen on the top of the key. Watch Shumpert movement. He should stay on same position and not moving towards Bargniani. Why? Because one player (Nash in this case) can guard 2 players at the same time. Yes it's true that Shumpert is then moving away from Bargniani, but Nash can cover both players at the same time. He should decide to cover Bargniani or Shumpert... Second worrying thing is Melo cutting. He should stay still in the corner in case his defender decides to help. Again when Melo cuts, his defender can help against rotating player and can cover Melo at the same time. I hope 2K will fix this on release.

As I said at the beginning of the video how can you mark progress if you don't compare. Shump can't even make that read of bargs in 2k13. In 2k13 they can move independently AND unrelated to the basketball.

The system is set to space to the ball. The AI could cheat and tell shump before hand where Bargs is going but it doesn't. When shump see's the ball move he wants to maintain his spacing ... then he "see's" okay Bargs is now a part of the equation of our perimeter spacing. Let me make space for him.

This is a serious Advance in 2k's AI for spacing. Now if were at the park. Okay I give you that. But 2k13 could in now way have these decisions made to space. It had pre-programmed actions that were not always linked to what is actually happening on the floor.

Hence the "meeting in the paint" of 2k13. This is a night and day difference. This AI is reacting in unison to ball position and pnr. It doesn't do it as smooth but this is a year one implementation.


Spacing in 2k13 was more so a happy accident where as in 2k14 it is the intention of the system. But remember these are not real people. The AI has to have rules it follows.

Maybe live will crush in this area on next gen or maybe 2k will make that type of advancement where the player can look at 10-12 factors and determine the best spacing in each scenario given the location and speeds of every other player on the floor.

In 2k14 the ai is at least looking at ball position and saying where should I be if the ball is here. or if the ball is moving towards me at a certain speed (Melo)

Pick and roll is a different system and the handoff between the two is not always clean and does need more work.

Being that I didn't say it was perfect I don't think it was misleading of me knowing the differences at the system level to say this is a very real improvement from 2k13 to 2k14 IMO. I do realize that the implementation is not always going to be correct. but the system is built to try to maintain spacing.

Now that the system is in place I'm sure it can be modified and improved for instance specific stuff as you mentioned to make it better.

I have never been of the opinion that if it isn't perfect it isn't better. My videos just try to mark that improvement if there using last years games to say this is where we were and this is where we are.

[mango_prom]

Quote: Originally Posted by Da_Czar

As I said at the beginning of the video how can you mark progress if you don't compare. Shump can't even make that read of bargs in 2k13. In 2k13 they can move independently AND unrelated to the basketball. The system is set to space to the ball. The AI could cheat and tell shump before hand where Bargs is going but it doesn't. When shump see's the ball move he wants to maintain his spacing ... then he "see's" okay Bargs is now a part of the equation of our perimeter spacing. Let me make space for him. This is a serious Advance in 2k's AI for spacing. Now if were at the park. Okay I give you that. But 2k13 could in now way have these decisions made to space. It had pre-programmed actions that were not always linked to what is actually happening on the floor. Hence the "meeting in the paint" of 2k13. This is a night and day difference. This AI is reacting in unison to ball position and pnr. It doesn't do it as smooth but this is a year one implementation. Spacing in 2k13 was more so a happy accident where as in 2k14 it is the intention of the system. But remember these are not real people. The AI has to have rules it follows. Maybe live will crush in this area on next gen or maybe 2k will make that type of advancement where the player can look at 10-12 factors and determine the best spacing in each scenario given the location and speeds of every other player on the floor. In 2k14 the ai is at least looking at ball position and saying where should I be if the ball is here. or if the ball is moving towards me at a certain speed (Melo) Pick and roll is a different system and the handoff between the two is not always clean and does need more work. Being that I didn't say it was perfect I don't think it was misleading of me knowing the differences at the system level to say this is a very real improvement from 2k13 to 2k14 IMO. I do realize that the implementation is not always going to be correct. but the system is built to try to maintain spacing. Now that the system is in place I'm sure it can be modified and improved for instance specific stuff as you mentioned to make it better. I have never been of the opinion that if it isn't perfect it isn't better. My videos just try to mark that improvement if there using last years games to say this is where we were and this is where we are.

Thx for the video, nice breakdown. What's important to me is that they've fixed PnR initiation logic in freelance and PnR selection during set plays.

In 2k13, the AI only used a few PnRs out of a team's playbook, with most pop plays (especially 3pt plays) getting ignored completely. Would be huge for spacing if skilled shooting big men would be used properly by the AI.

In freelance, the problem was that the AI struggled to even execute a proper PnR in the first place. I've done many tests letting teams play in freelance only, and it wasn't quite working. What I saw many times pretty much every game was a pick being set for the ball handler, and instead of using it, he passed the ball to another player on the perimeter, messing up the entire possession. Would be nice if 2k tweaked freelance, so we can have the CPU run a proper offense only using basic freelance plays. The tendencies are all in place, they just need to work properly.

[videlsports]

Good Stuff I need Plays. spacing, and Pick and Rolls

[Sam Marlowe]

Quote: Originally Posted by svit

@DaCzar: great breakdown and giving basics of PNR spacing in offense and defense rotation. But I don't share your opinion about better spacing in 2k14. It's better than 2k13 for sure, but it's not good spacing. As we can see in the first example, Bargniani is setting the screen on the top of the key. Watch Shumpert movement. He should stay on same position and not moving towards Bargniani. Why? Because one player (Nash in this case) can guard 2 players at the same time. Yes it's true that Shumpert is then moving away from Bargniani, but Nash can cover both players at the same time. He should decide to cover Bargniani or Shumpert... Second worrying thing is Melo cutting. He should stay still in the corner in case his defender decides to help. Again when Melo cuts, his defender can help against rotating player and can cover Melo at the same time. I hope 2K will fix this on release.

As long as we don't see those kinds of things "all the time" then we'll be fine. Players make those kinds of mistakes irl

[svit]

@Da_Czar: Don't get me wrong. I agree there is a light years difference between spacing in 2k13 and 2k14, but it is still not perfect .

I have expressed my worries about spacing and player movement in 2k14 because I learned from the past that I can't trust 2K when they say they made some improvements.

For example:
- for 2k12 2K implemented play branching and you also made very good video about that, but in reality (read in match vs other user) opponent could break your play by simply changing the defense from man to man to zone.
- for 2k13 2K claimed that they implemented proper defense contacts and that they paid special attention to man-to-man defense and spacing. The outcome is known. We got random cuts by teammates and bad spacing.
- for 2k14 2K again claim that they implemented proper defense contacts and that they have improved spacing. As I can see from the gameplay videos it's true that they improve spacing, but I don't know it's really the A.I. which makes the difference or just play.

Example:
- in 2k12 when opponent is playing zone (or offball defense) with doubling your teammates tends to stick together on weak side, so the opponent is able to guard two of your teammates with one defender.
- in 2k13 when opponent is playing zone (of offball defense) with doubling your teammates also tends to stick together on weak side, so again the opponent is able to guard two of your teammates with one defender
- in 2k14 again the same story. Shumpert is moving towards Bargiani which allows defending team to defend two players with one guy. This happens again when Melo is cutting in the paint allowing one guy defends two players. Same story is happening in third PNR action in your video when you showed 4-1 situation when Shumpert is clearing right side of the court after the PNR has been executed.

I hope those three examples are just bad player spacing (like they happen in real world) and that the player ratings (such as offensive awareness) have an impact here.

Otherwise I agree. Spacing seems better in 2k14 than in 2k13.

[ffaacc03]

Beyond fixing those ocurrences and recurrences, a thing I would appreciate to see is plays/freelance execution tied to ratings, specially to Offensive and Defensive awareness. I would love to experience further distinction from good and bad offenses and from great to awfull defenses.

Teams with players and coaches without any regards on D, should struggle: to rotate propperly, to know when to play tight and when to play loose, when and who to double, with whom and from where.

Teams with players and coaches with limited offensive awareness, should struggle: to complete the plays as intended, to create and exploit favorable matchups, to know when to cut, to create space, to keep the ball, etc.

I fear that they might go the "perfection" route and blurr the line that make teams be/feel/play/look different from one to another, that is why instead, I want it to be related to the awareness of players and coaches. I am in no way or form suggesting that bad teams always fail to do propper defense or offense, but that they get affected more regulary than the good teams, by those impropper ocurrences.

YET, all editable, not only as an inssurance, incase the new dynamic rosters are still flawed, but as this is the only way that we can all fit the game into each and everyone of our views. Here is to hope for that.

P.S:
Also, for 2k15, as we have been able to assign plays to teams on the O side, I would love to also assign specific plays (more, like the new d schemes, as ice and such) to teams on the D side. Hopefully we get them implemented.