NBA 2K14 - What the 2K Team-Up Members Thought of the New Blocking System

[mango_prom]

Quote: Originally Posted by ViolenceFight

OS shows that like every game fanbase, you're just Unpleaseable. "We want dunks to be blockable". "Ok, You can block dunks". "WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT!? That's too much!"

Since I'm a single person and not an "entire fanbase" you can categorize with pointless general statements...have you thought about why there potentially could be too much dunks? Could there be legitimate reasons for thinking that? Besides, your whole statement is pretty ridiculous, exaggerating peoples's skepticism to make your point seem more valid...

But the thing is really that a new blocking system won't help much if 2k doesn't tone down the efficiency of iso chain moves, spin dunks and self alleys, too. Otherwise we get the same NBA Jam gameplay, but with monster blocks added to it. I've actually seen dunks branching into some kind fo block animations in 2k13, and it really shouldn't happen too often. Much more frequently, players should stumble or lose control of the ball when forcing a drive into multiple defenders before even getting near the basket, which is something that basically doesn't happen in 2k13 at all.

So adding block animations is nice of course, but the other part is removing unstoppable animations and giving us the tools to punish idiots for trying to force drives before they're even getting to the rim.

[grodbetatted]

Funny that when nba live 14 said you can block dunks in their iteration of basketball people were like Ehh whatever, but when 2k says it the fanboys get excited.. whether it be 2k or EA that says it we should be excited for improvements

[ViolenceFight]

Quote: Originally Posted by mango_prom

Since I'm a single person and not an "entire fanbase" you can categorize with pointless general statements...have you thought about why there potentially could be too much dunks? Could there be legitimate reasons for thinking that? Besides, your whole statement is pretty ridiculous, exaggerating peoples's skepticism to make your point seem more valid... But the thing is really that a new blocking system won't help much if 2k doesn't tone down the efficiency of iso chain moves, spin dunks and self alleys, too. Otherwise we get the same NBA Jam gameplay, but with monster blocks added to it. I've actually seen dunks branching into some kind fo block animations in 2k13, and it really shouldn't happen too often. Much more frequently, players should stumble or lose control of the ball when forcing a drive into multiple defenders before even getting near the basket, which is something that basically doesn't happen in 2k13 at all. So adding block animations is nice of course, but the other part is removing unstoppable animations and giving us the tools to punish idiots for trying to force drives before they're even getting to the rim.

I categorized an entire fanbase because that was honestly the number one complaint, and now that they announce they've done something people are throwing a fit because its either: A. Not the info they wanted, B. Unsure how it's news or C. are worried it's going to be too much.

While I agree that there should be way more punishment for dribble hounds forcing drives into multiple defenders, right now we have the forced shot animation that happens quite often if you are stupid enough to do that. It's how I play defense online, by forcing contact on a drive and making them go into that animation because they think it's clear sailing. It either results in said animation or a fly over dunk...but it does exist. Punishing? Hardly. Unbeatable? No.

The spin move is cheese, I agree, but the problem with removing it is that you are taking away some level of control. Unless it ends in a dunk(which isn't as often as you would think), it's defeatable by not jumping early. Played a game with a guy who spammed it the other day, as soon as I realized all he was doing was that move, I just watched him drive and timed my jump with the end of it. Picked up quite a few blocks that way, and soon forced him into stopping and trying to dream shake out of it. You can tell when they are going to do just a lay up out of it because they leave the ground, and they give you more than enough time to stop said lay-up. The problem is that everyone bites on the initial spin and jumps way too early because we're impatient. If I go for a spin dunk, half the time it misses due to defensive pressure caused by the bigs down in the paint. So it isn't a 100% success rate either. It's not nearly as unstoppable as you hyperbolize it to be(And yes, you personally tend to use a hyperbole in the discussion of it. I have read your posts.)

I get that multiple spin moves are not Sim, and I get that a good chunk of the fan base loves being able to play Sim ball. I agree whole heartedly that the regular games between 2 NBA teams should feel like a real game, and players hardly spam spin moves in the real NBA. This is, however, a video game. Players will do what they need to do to win. So if you are playing online, that notion of sim ball needs either go out the window, or you need to play with your own set of friends who appreciate that as much as you do. When dealing with human players that you don't know, you will never be able to play full sim basketball. Period. They will always use whatever tactic has the highest chance of them successfully winning. So no matter what you do to make the game "As sim as possible", the common player will just repeat the same move over and over again if you don't figure out a counter. If they nerf the spin move, the player will resort to another tactic. Nerf that, and they will find a new one. A player will always do whatever move will get them the win. Especially if you have trouble stopping it.

What you essentially want(or at least seem to be desiring by your comments), Is a game that forcefully makes a person lose if they do the same thing repeatedly. That's theoretically impossible, sir. Assume for a second they make the spin move have a preconditioned 66% chance of failure to combat spin cheese. So now it's use-less. The opponent now repeats the idea of driving left, stepback 2 pointer(Which, by the way, is also damn near unstoppable in the game going by the same criteria you use for the spin move). People then start complaining about that being too good, so now they nerf that. Player resorts to using nothing by Protect-Spin-Fade shots as they are the new "Highest percent shot". Nerfed. At the end of the day, you either have a game where nothing works, or a game that is now refined to 2 people repeating the same tactic as it is the only tactic you can win with.

This happens all the time in the COD games. They continually nerf them until everything is trash, and everyone is left using the same gun and set up because they will lose with anything else. It's the same reason that certain combos and chains are what every high level fighting game guy knows with certain characters. Or why they only play 2 or 3 characters to begin with.

I'm not saying your wrong. Defense needs to be upped substantially past blocked dunks(And blocking in general). They need to make the ball live enough that dribbling into 3 guys forces you to hit the ball off an elbow, or knee or something to stop kids from doing that. They need to balance the rate of steals vs. reaching calls, to allow you to punish people who over-dribble. But the key is Balance. If you over-power the defense to the point that driving becomes something only a hand full of players can do, then what's the point of a dribble stick, or different shot animations, or lay ups?

You want to know why there are so many dunks? Because there are signature skills that help people do that, even in traffic. I refuse to believe that you are that bad that you can't stop a drive in this game, because I'm not that good at all, and I can stop a drive. Improving the blocking system will allow me to punish idiots that drive too much and force up shots, because I can already read what they are doing when they force that spin stuff down my throat 90% of the time, because 90% of the time the people that try to force that are scrubs with not concept of variety and the reason they score is because I time the block right, and my character decides to jump and spin a 180 instead of smacking that ball into the next century for some odd reason.

I'll condense this down for you. I got nothing against the Sim game. I think it belongs in matches between 2 NBA teams, and I believe playing online should come down to skill vs. skill. I don't care about offline because you get a ton of sliders to tweak that how you like it. The problem is this: Even if you force both players to play a completely sim style game, most people will always try to exploit the best chance they have at winning. Period. People play to win, whether you want them to or not. 2k cannot stop people from doing this, and they will ALWAYS. ALWAYS. ALWAYS find a way to be cheesy because of this. To make a truly sim game, you have to take the other person out of the equation, which you cannot do to play online.

You exaggerate the problems worse than I exaggerate the skepticism of the answer to the problems, hiding behind the coat of arms known as "Sim Basketball", but forgetting the problem doesn't lie in the game not being as sim as possible, but in the fact that human beings ruin anything great with their lust for victory. I didn't really want to come off as malicious as I'm sure I sound, but man people that do nothing but whine about the problems they encounter annoy me. Defense sucks in 2k13, Man up and deal with it and it'll make you even harder to deal with when they actually fix it up.

PS: I've gotten stripped a lot of times on spin moves too, but hey, they're un-defendable, right?

[sactown_13]

who the hell is QJBeat??

[sactown_13]

you know what im sayin? you know what im sayin j-roc?

[mango_prom]

Quote: Originally Posted by ViolenceFight

While I agree that there should be way more punishment for dribble hounds forcing drives into multiple defenders, right now we have the forced shot animation that happens quite often if you are stupid enough to do that. It's how I play defense online, by forcing contact on a drive and making them go into that animation because they think it's clear sailing. It either results in said animation or a fly over dunk...but it does exist. Punishing? Hardly. Unbeatable? No.

You're right, there are forced shot animations. But they don't apply to spin dunks and self alleys as well as turbo sprints with athletic guards like Rose or Westbrook.

Quote:

The spin move is cheese, I agree, but the problem with removing it is that you are taking away some level of control. Unless it ends in a dunk(which isn't as often as you would think), it's defeatable by not jumping early. Played a game with a guy who spammed it the other day, as soon as I realized all he was doing was that move, I just watched him drive and timed my jump with the end of it. Picked up quite a few blocks that way, and soon forced him into stopping and trying to dream shake out of it. You can tell when they are going to do just a lay up out of it because they leave the ground, and they give you more than enough time to stop said lay-up. The problem is that everyone bites on the initial spin and jumps way too early because we're impatient. If I go for a spin dunk, half the time it misses due to defensive pressure caused by the bigs down in the paint. So it isn't a 100% success rate either. It's not nearly as unstoppable as you hyperbolize it to be(And yes, you personally tend to use a hyperbole in the discussion of it. I have read your posts.)

First of all, even if I concede that I'm using hyperbole, the same applies to stuff like this:

Quote:

OS shows that like every game fanbase, you're just Unpleaseable. "We want dunks to be blockable". "Ok, You can block dunks". "WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT!? That's too much!"

You probably notice yourself how you represent criticism on the recent teamup impressions in a slightly twisted way. So let's just say we both do this sometimes.

Besides, I'm not for removing anything. But if someone tries a move without the proper context, he should be punished. So the issue with all kinds of spin animations is that the ballhandler is pretty much invincible until the animation is finished. After that, it's possible to apply pressure, true. But with guys like Lebron or Rudy Gay, I really don't have to care about defense that much, because even if I can't trigger the spin dunk, there are still ways to exploit up/unders and so on, which is working not mainly because defenders bite on the fake too often, but due to these animations resulting in the defender sliding towards the basket whether he likes it or not.

Quote:

I get that multiple spin moves are not Sim, and I get that a good chunk of the fan base loves being able to play Sim ball. I agree whole heartedly that the regular games between 2 NBA teams should feel like a real game, and players hardly spam spin moves in the real NBA. This is, however, a video game. Players will do what they need to do to win. So if you are playing online, that notion of sim ball needs either go out the window, or you need to play with your own set of friends who appreciate that as much as you do. When dealing with human players that you don't know, you will never be able to play full sim basketball. Period. They will always use whatever tactic has the highest chance of them successfully winning. So no matter what you do to make the game "As sim as possible", the common player will just repeat the same move over and over again if you don't figure out a counter. If they nerf the spin move, the player will resort to another tactic. Nerf that, and they will find a new one. A player will always do whatever move will get them the win. Especially if you have trouble stopping it.

Don't you think NBA players would spam iso moves and sprint all the time if they could win that way? Of course, gamers will do everything they can to win online. But doesn't 2k make the rules? They decide how the game works. And if 2k is rewarding arcade gamers with easy wins, they'll continue to play that way. That's not the point, people can play however they want to. You get my point. The current "exploits" aren't a necessary result of people wanting to win online, but the logical consequence of the way 2k13 is designed.
A maybe subpar example...take some realistic driving simulator, maybe GTR or one of the F1 games. Without any computer aids for casual players, this stuff is pretty hard to get into without spending lots of time.
Basically, the approach you've learned playing Need For Speed won't help you much. It isn't successful. You can do it, but results won't be rewarding. Now do you really think there's another reason for 2k not going into this direction besides most of their customers not being interested into recreating lifelike basketball gameplay as much as simply a graphically accurate representations of their NBA heroes?

Quote:

What you essentially want(or at least seem to be desiring by your comments), Is a game that forcefully makes a person lose if they do the same thing repeatedly.

Nope, what I essentially want is a game that rewards smart decisions and punishes plays that shouldn't be successful in a real basketball context. If the defense gives you the opportunity to do the same thing over and over again, you'll take it. The same should be true for 2k14. But currently, many things are quite successful with not much relation to spacing, pressure and so on. That's my main point, just to clarify.

Quote:

Assume for a second they make the spin move have a preconditioned 66% chance of failure to combat spin cheese. So now it's use-less. The opponent now repeats the idea of driving left, stepback 2 pointer(Which, by the way, is also damn near unstoppable in the game going by the same criteria you use for the spin move). People then start complaining about that being too good, so now they nerf that. Player resorts to using nothing by Protect-Spin-Fade shots as they are the new "Highest percent shot". Nerfed. At the end of the day, you either have a game where nothing works, or a game that is now refined to 2 people repeating the same tactic as it is the only tactic you can win with.

I don't see how toning down the efficiency of certain moves is necessarily tied to a hardcoded probability of successs (in your case 66%). Now we could do pointless semantics talk since at the core, videogames are nothing but mathematics, so let's not get into that. I just think you simplyfy the issue quite a bit. Mainly I don't say that move x should have success rate y. Not at all. Why do you ignore context? Everyone can spam spin moves in real life, as long as there's nothing else going on around you. But in a 5 on 5 game, it's a different story. So why are you talking about an arbitrary probability value when the real issue is whether defensive pressure, double teams, fatigue and momentum should have an impact on ball security? Basically I think your premise is missing the point. I don't talk about "nerfing", but realistic interactions between the ball handler and defenders as well as momentum influencing the way you can move. Try to sprint up the court, chain 5 dribble moves, then spin through multiple defenders. Is it a high percentage shot? I mean you've estimated the success of those spin exploits at 50%. Isn't that still much too high really?

Quote:

This happens all the time in the COD games. They continually nerf them until everything is trash, and everyone is left using the same gun and set up because they will lose with anything else. It's the same reason that certain combos and chains are what every high level fighting game guy knows with certain characters. Or why they only play 2 or 3 characters to begin with

I think the analogy with driving sims is appropriate in this context again. Game devs could probably fix this easily, but without simple exploits offering cheap wins as a reward, many people won't play the game. It has to be accessible, I get that. But you know, if I don't like that direction, I think it's okay to criticize that even though I know that my dream basketball game would probably mean 2k would go bankrupt because nobody would want to play it, lol. Still, the problem aren't the gamers, but exploits being enabled by game design in the first place. There are good reasons for going that route, but I don't like it. Which I write about on an internet forum sometimes while still having spent quite some money on 2k products, so I think it's alright if I do that.

Quote:

I'm not saying your wrong. Defense needs to be upped substantially past blocked dunks(And blocking in general). They need to make the ball live enough that dribbling into 3 guys forces you to hit the ball off an elbow, or knee or something to stop kids from doing that. They need to balance the rate of steals vs. reaching calls, to allow you to punish people who over-dribble. But the key is Balance. If you over-power the defense to the point that driving becomes something only a hand full of players can do, then what's the point of a dribble stick, or different shot animations, or lay ups?

Now I'd argue that looking at the NBA, effective dribbling is really limited to less player than most people think, but this paragraph sums up pretty much everything I was talking about. Agree with everything.

Quote:

Even if you force both players to play a completely sim style game, most people will always try to exploit the best chance they have at winning. Period. People play to win, whether you want them to or not. 2k cannot stop people from doing this

I disagree. Why should 2k need to force gamers to play in a certain way? If it's the most successful approach, people would adjust anyway. Nobody is "forcing" me to play normal basketball in real life. I could drive all day, jack up stupid shots and so on. But since it's not successful, it's simply not rewarding, thus not fun at all. Which is why I don't do it. Why do you ignore the possibility of trying to recreate the same kind of thing in a video game? I know it won't be perfect and it's probable that even the most sophisticated try to simulate basketball will still have some holes people can try to exploit on purpose. But I think there's a difference between issues existing because there are limits to game engines, and things you have to simply concede to casual gamers because they're responsible for most of your revenue.

Quote:

You exaggerate the problems worse than I exaggerate the skepticism of the answer to the problems, hiding behind the coat of arms known as "Sim Basketball", but forgetting the problem doesn't lie in the game not being as sim as possible, but in the fact that human beings ruin anything great with their lust for victory.

I agree somewhat. But then again, I have to make the comparison with other simulations once again ( I mean come on, COD and Beat 'em Ups are really not about realism, are they?). I can't "exploit" a realistic F1 sim because I'll crash after a few seconds anyway or just suck real bad if I drive too slow. If I play a realistic flight sim, I won't even get the thing off the ground. Now these are kind of niche products, so 2k won't even think about going into that direction, but you make it sound like it's entirely impossible to do so. Which I strongly disagree with. It's not smart in a business sense, but why do you act like it's not possible?

Quote:

I didn't really want to come off as malicious as I'm sure I sound, but man people that do nothing but whine about the problems they encounter annoy me. Defense sucks in 2k13, Man up and deal with it and it'll make you even harder to deal with when they actually fix it up.

Have no idea what you're talking about there at all, no offense. Why do people (you don't even know) that complain about a certain video game annoy you? If you like the game more than I do, that's cool. But what's annoying about my point of view? If you disagree with my opinion, I'm interested in your thoughts about that. But annoyed by the "whining?" Don't get you at all. The only valid statement there would probably be something like "If you don't like the game, don't buy it!". Which I'd have to agree with. Yet, I really want to like 2k14, I want to support 2k by buying their products. But if it doesn't meet my expectations, I won't. Which is why, with at least some dev interaction on this forum, I'm voicing my opinion about which direction I'd like to see. Isn't that just as legitimate as people requesting "improvements" to wristband colors, shoes and so on?

[toneqdup]

The reason blocked DUNKS don't happen every game in the NBA is because players have the presence to change their shot in the air. You can do that on NBA 2k so what's the problem? Lebron does it all the time. If Darren Collison has the n**s to try and dunk on Hibbert it should get sent back all game. Plus, people coming from 2k13 are so used to dunking without a consequence. If your good you can send them a message. I know I don't have a problem with it. I got game. Now, if the cheese is fixed greatly with SOLID non sliding D, i'll be a happy man..... Please no spin gather/ layups.... please......

[Goffs]

Quote: Originally Posted by grodbetatted

Funny that when nba live 14 said you can block dunks in their iteration of basketball people were like Ehh whatever, but when 2k says it the fanboys get excited.. whether it be 2k or EA that says it we should be excited for improvements

Maaaan stop that ****....this was a major complaint here from the very beginning and there was nothing fanboyish about this...

Here's a thought! The REASON why that NBA Live even mentioned that you can block dunks was a knock on 2k! There were literally a thread a day here on the forums on how you can't block anything! The fact is the devs listened and followed through but of course its instant fanboy reaction because Live mentioned it first....smh