Madden NFL 25: What's Hot and What's Not

[MrSerendipity]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

I usually don't comment on, what is imo, the misplaced humility of others but I am this time. EA Tiburon making a solid football game and/or providing you with excellent customer service is not some accolade or should be treated like something extraordinary, it's their reasonable service. It's not like EA dropped the price of M25 to $29.99 or customer service gave you a free DLC, that I am aware of, something unexpected like that to truly be humbled by. By their own admission, it's poor design and form to be taking out features, so when they correct that some years later, that's not the stuff of gratitude. I can see being glad they are back, even acknowledging the fact, "glad Tiburon added this stuff back" but not on the level of acting as if Tiburon went some extra mile for the consumer. With the exception of physics, we aren't talking about reinventing the wheel here or innovation, this is stuff that people had become accustomed to having in other football games and past Maddens, being added in 2013, that even IF it works, won't raise the bar, won't even get the game back to even because so much other past stuff is still missing, it's just "another step in the right direction". Tiburon seems to really have some consumers twisted up that working long hours and putting out a feature filled game is somehow beyond the call of duty, it's not. To state the obvious, you are entitled to feel however you want about whatever you want but don't try to act like others that don't place Tiburon on a pedestal for getting Madden to where it's at, are ungrateful.

I see your point and I agree with a lot of it. Heck, I probably agree with most of it. But while we can't pretend that EA/Tiburon is doing groundbreaking work with these Maddens. We can't pretend that they're doing nothing but taking steps back either. People constantly complain about how there hasn't been a good Madden on the current gen. Personally, I would have to disagree with that. I think Madden 12 was one of the better Football games I've played. I think people are just so bummed about the inaccuracies, glitches and so forth in past years games that they've begun to exaggerate how well done Maddens on the past gen really were.

I think Madden has seen some progression in the past years with a greater understanding of detail, graphics and aesthetics. Visually, has the game ever really looked better? Are you not impressed that rather than moving your team to some small town with a generic logo, generic uniforms and no special commentary, now you'll get a professionally made logo with legitimate uniforms and commentary devoted specifically to your team and it's business decisions? Is the draft not more detailed with player-specific backgrounds and stories? Is the draft not also more visually appealing? Those are just a few examples of how the game has progressed just in the last three years alone.

I'm not taking EA or Tiburon's defense, as I also believe we should be getting a better product by now. And I wish that EA/Tiburon would take a good look at how The Show has been made. There is still plenty of room for EA/Tiburon to grow in the way they're making this games. But let's not discredit their entire work by summing up these improvements to game modes as recycling and repackaging.

[infemous]

Quote: Originally Posted by Trackball

Let me clarify. First off, no, I didn't mean that to be an attack on you personally. I apologize for that. It's just that it comes across as really miserable and ungrateful--plus I keep seeing it over and over, people saying "So, Madden 2005 then. Gotcha." Even if that wasn't your intention, if it's INTERPRETED differently, then it doesn't matter what your intention was--perception may not be reality, but it does count for a lot. Just ask the NBA's Roy Hibbert. What I'm saying is that I'm thankful so much is changing for this year, and that has me really excited for Madden 25. Heck, I actually paid the five bucks earlier today to preorder it at Gamestop--five years ago, I NEVER thought I'd do that for an EA game. Then again, I didn't play Madden 12, but did get Madden 13--I even started a topic once, asking which I should get, since I hadn't played a Madden game since Madden 2004. And looking back, yeah, I should have gotten 12. I can see people's problems--but I still find 13 a fun game. Heck, one of my favorite PS1 games has a bug in it that can crash the game if you're not careful (Star Ocean: The Second Story, thankfully fixed in the PSP port). But I still had tons of fun with it. Look, all I'm saying is that I want people to look on the bright side of this. If you think we should have had these things since Madden 2005, then play Madden 2005. But how many people are doing that? Really? Or maybe I just want to pay EA back for the excellent customer service they gave me a few months ago. Who knows.

No worries man.

I think that we have a right to be miserable, and we are being grateful doesn't come into it. We are customers, we pay for a product. If the product is not up to the standard we would expect considering the price paid, then we reserve every right to complain in any and every way we wish.

In my opinion, EA is ungrateful for continuously putting out a sub par product, lying to us in their promotional pursuits, nickel and diming us with micro transactions (or trying to), removing and then re-installing old features and continuously putting out a bug laden game.

My first Madden was Madden 03 on the PS2. I never needed to buy another Madden until I got a PS3 and got Madden 10. I really enjoyed it, especially Online Franchise, and having been heavily involved in many different leagues, I have felt compelled to buy every Madden since. (Btw. I have not bought a FIFA since FIFA 11, despite how good the new games are.)

It is my choice whether to buy the game or not and I choose to. This then gives me every right to air out my opinions if I am dissatisfied with the product.
At first it was the small things that struck me as being the difference between Madden 03 and 10 - things like the helmets not popping off, how in stadium effects and commentary had substantially regressed, how there was a distinct lack of signature running styles (and how bad the animations looked in general)... Then, as I started playing more and more Online Franchise and was confronted with 'cheesers' I had to learn how they were able to cheese... Exposing a whole dearth of AI, physics and animation glitches.

Having found out about Backbreaker and then playing the Demo, I realised what was achievable on the PS3 and did not accept the awful 'features' being given to us on Madden when there were such FUNDAMENTAL issues with the game that really detracted from its enjoyability.

Funnily enough, this also coincides with the limitations placed upon us by EA to play the game 'their way'. The constant roster updates over or underrating players, not being able to edit a roster and import it into a career mode... the said career mode being empty and full of useless elements (non working IR, the remnants of Owner Mode etc. etc.)

All this, and oh yeah! Online Franchise was untouched in 2 years. Completely ignored. Not one addition to it.

I was delighted when CCM was announced and was very excited for Madden 13. I have played the game since it was released non stop, but that does not mean that I am not frustrated by all the bugs that make Offline CCM unplayable, the horrendous AI and game management by CPU teams, the stupid glitches like the RT being awful no matter the ratings (in fact, most ratings being useless), the inability to press cover, the overpowering of Man Coverage (and the continued presence of psychic DBs), the awful uniform errors, the stale commentary and presentation, the absence of a realistic injury system, the absence of any sort of morale or team management etc. etc. etc.

I was also pissed to learn that features I did really enjoy, such as Player Roles on M12, were removed.

If I can write a list as damning as that in under 5 minutes, then there is a serious issue with either the game or its developers.

To not even see vital elements of a Career Mode such as Player Roles added onto CCM, but instead see Owner Mode (packaged with lies about Authentic Nike uniforms) with the only other additions being features removed from M12 (and their likely haphazard re-introduction) I feel more than every right to be disillusioned, aggrieved and annoyed.

I am now, finally, potentially, going to pass on Madden and miss out on being included in some of my leagues unless I am sure that the game will not be a source of anger and frustration the way M13 has been.

Being a generally positive and optimistic person, I have placed all of my hopes for Madden in the next generation, meaning that I am likely to spend a great deal of my hard earned cash on a new machine and the next gen Madden straight away - under one condition: That they deliver on some of their promises for once.

If I have to contend with yet more of the same issues, despite having been promised a revolutionary physics and AI system, you can be damn sure I won't be buying another Madden, and you can be damn sure I'm gonna let them know through Operation Sports and any outlet I can.

This is after all, the only way I can play with my beloved Rams and play my favourite sport.

[infemous]

Quote: Originally Posted by MrSerendipity

I see your point and I agree with a lot of it. Heck, I probably agree with most of it. But while we can't pretend that EA/Tiburon is doing groundbreaking work with these Maddens. We can't pretend that they're doing nothing but taking steps back either. People constantly complain about how there hasn't been a good Madden on the current gen. Personally, I would have to disagree with that. I think Madden 12 was one of the better Football games I've played. I think people are just so bummed about the inaccuracies, glitches and so forth in past years games that they've begun to exaggerate how well done Maddens on the past gen really were. I think Madden has seen some progression in the past years with a greater understanding of detail, graphics and aesthetics. Visually, has the game ever really looked better? Are you not impressed that rather than moving your team to some small town with a generic logo, generic uniforms and no special commentary, now you'll get a professionally made logo with legitimate uniforms and commentary devoted specifically to your team and it's business decisions? Is the draft not more detailed with player-specific backgrounds and stories? Is the draft not also more visually appealing? Those are just a few examples of how the game has progressed just in the last three years alone. I'm not taking EA or Tiburon's defense, as I also believe we should be getting a better product by now. And I wish that EA/Tiburon would take a good look at how The Show has been made. There is still plenty of room for EA/Tiburon to grow in the way they're making this games. But let's not discredit their entire work by summing up these improvements to game modes as recycling and repackaging.

"SOME" progression.

I'd just like to ask you, what do you expect from 3 years of development?

Is that all you expect?

Playing on PS3 it should be a given that the graphics are improved.
It should also be a fundamental fact that physics would be improved and animations would be more diverse and true to life. With these expectations, we'd also expect a degree of quality in this. We'd want these animations to play out accurately and realistically, we'd expect the physics to determine outcomes in diverse and natural ways.

Quite simply put, we haven't see anything remotely close to this.

Instead, in these 3 years (not counting the previous years on PS3/Xbox) we have seen gameflow (ask madden), gameplanning (removed), run free (who knows how this will work), only one year of a reasonable physics engine, the inclusion of Online Franchise and the ignoring of it for 2 years, the inclusion of CCM and now the addition of owner mode.

All the other 'features' that have been 'new' have been recycled from previous Maddens or have already been removed awaiting future re-introduction.

Would you say, considering the resources available to EA Tiburon, the exclusive license and the in built market for the game, that that handful of progressions in 3 YEARS is acceptable?

Now I'd like you to compare that with a 3 year span of either last gen Madden or any other sports franchise available.

I'm not discrediting their work at all, seeing as I still buy their game (for now) but the fact remains that no-one is indebted to EA in any way, nor is there any reason to be satisfied with the ways in which we, as customers, have been treated.

It is up to each individual's discretion whether they wish to see beyond the flaws of the game or not, the same way it is up to each individual's discretion whether or not to voice how they feel about the game.

[DeuceDouglas]

Man, I can't wait for E3...

[MrSerendipity]

Hold up, you can't just choose a single paragraph in my three paragraph long response and single it out. Especially when my first paragraph and third paragraph both show a different outlook than the lone 2nd paragraph you chose to breakdown.

As I stated, I don't think what they've done is enough. And I do think that they're deserving of some criticism. I also stated that we aren't getting the game that we should be getting at this point. The progression that they've made isn't enough and I wish they'd look at what other games (I mentioned 'The Show' as an example) are doing so they can look at what they could do better. My only statement as I clarified in my first paragraph, is that we can't claim that there haven't been any improvements or progression because there has. Is it enough progression? No. Are there enough improvements? No. Is the game where it should be at this point? No. Have there been improvements and progression? Yes. Have I seen evidence that some of the developers know what they're doing? Yes. That is all that I was claiming when I made that statement.

As for commenting on the games in the last gen, were there noticeable improvements in the yearly releases? Sure there were. Have there been noticeable improvements in the yearly releases on this gen? Yes there have. I think one of the most popular improvements over the past few years would be pass trajectories which weren't as prominent and accurate in any of the last gen games. CCM is also an improvement over Franchise and Superstar mode, despite it's glitches. Lets not pretend that Franchise Mode and Superstar Mode didn't come with their faults in the last gen. I'm not saying the last gen games weren't good. I'm simply stating that they weren't as good as people on these forums build them up to be. It's like when you date a girl who knows every button to set you off. Just because she's annoying, doesn't mean that last chick you were dating was any less of a hag. But because that new girlfriend is bugging you so much, you start seeing that last girlfriend a bit more fancy. Madden 2005 and ESPN NFL 2k5 both came with some faults too.

[bucky60]

Quote: Originally Posted by MrSerendipity

CCM is also an improvement over Franchise and Superstar mode, despite it's glitches.

That's opinion. I thought it was a big step backwards. Missing features, bad AI, unrealistic progression system. They would have to return the missing features and have them work correctly and fix some major AI snafu's for me to say CCM is an improvement. CCM can be an improvement, but it isn't yet.

[MrSerendipity]

Quote: Originally Posted by bucky60

That's opinion. I thought it was a big step backwards. Missing features, bad AI, unrealistic progression system. They would have to return the missing features and have them work correctly and fix some major AI snafu's for me to say CCM is an improvement. CCM can be an improvement, but it isn't yet.

The missing features were a loss but I don't think such a loss that it made CCM inferior to it's former counterparts. The AI was bad throughout the entire game, not just CCM. So you can't hang the AI on CCM alone. The progression system actually worked decent for me but I know it didn't for others, so yes that's a matter of opinion. I think after you factor in Game Face, Story-Arch, Specific Draft Classes and the revamped Free Agency, CCM comes out better. It was their first year with the revamped mode, we couldn't expect them to have everything perfect that first year. The only issue that I think you're very valid on is the AI which took a step back. But it took a step back throughout the entire game, not CCM alone.

[infemous]

Quote: Originally Posted by MrSerendipity

Hold up, you can't just choose a single paragraph in my three paragraph long response and single it out. Especially when my first paragraph and third paragraph both show a different outlook than the lone 2nd paragraph you chose to breakdown. As I stated, I don't think what they've done is enough. And I do think that they're deserving of some criticism. I also stated that we aren't getting the game that we should be getting at this point. The progression that they've made isn't enough and I wish they'd look at what other games (I mentioned 'The Show' as an example) are doing so they can look at what they could do better. My only statement as I clarified in my first paragraph, is that we can't claim that there haven't been any improvements or progression because there has. Is it enough progression? No. Are there enough improvements? No. Is the game where it should be at this point? No. Have there been improvements and progression? Yes. Have I seen evidence that some of the developers know what they're doing? Yes. That is all that I was claiming when I made that statement. As for commenting on the games in the last gen, were there noticeable improvements in the yearly releases? Sure there were. Have there been noticeable improvements in the yearly releases on this gen? Yes there have. I think one of the most popular improvements over the past few years would be pass trajectories which weren't as prominent and accurate in any of the last gen games. CCM is also an improvement over Franchise and Superstar mode, despite it's glitches. Lets not pretend that Franchise Mode and Superstar Mode didn't come with their faults in the last gen. I'm not saying the last gen games weren't good. I'm simply stating that they weren't as good as people on these forums build them up to be. It's like when you date a girl who knows every button to set you off. Just because she's annoying, doesn't mean that last chick you were dating was any less of a hag. But because that new girlfriend is bugging you so much, you start seeing that last girlfriend a bit more fancy. Madden 2005 and ESPN NFL 2k5 both came with some faults too.

Apologies for that, its bad etiquette. I didn't comment on the other two paragraphs because I agree entirely.

I also agree in general with what you're saying.

It seems that the difference lies in how vocal we are about the lack of progression. It would be idiotic to deny that there have been improvements, but the improvements are not relative to the rest of the gaming landscape. The business practices of EA put a sour taste in the mouth, meaning it is hard to even want to appreciate the improvements.

For me, it comes down to whether or not there is a valid excuse for the progression we've seen vs progression from other titles or even previous gen Madden and quite frankly, there isn't.

CCM is indeed an improvement on Franchise and Superstar, but a marginal one. For the inclusion of CCM (and the melding of Franchise, Superstar and now Owner modes) we have seen the continued absence of an injury system, player morale, notable draft improvements etc. etc. Superstar mode within CCM has seen the same neglect that it always has, completely ignoring the opportunities for an immersive mode. Franchise within CCM likewise. Now we get a 'deeper' Owner mode while the other modes are still shallow as ****.

I like the idea of CCM, especially that it enables the same features for a 32 team Online Franchise as it does for a single player Offline one and I can understand the idea of implementing it so that one mode can be fixed and improved upon, directly impacting all the other modes.. Thats smart and something you don't often see from EA.

The issue lies in the inclusion of a 'splash' feature like Owner mode, which definitely has a market, but that its inclusion is at the expense of a deeper version of the other two, arguably more important, game modes.

It seems that the Madden after Madden 25 will be the barometer to really gage the success of CCM and this dev team. If, on the next gen, CCM is gone or bare bones and then Madden 15/26 (whatever the ****) is only going to re-establish what we get now, public attitude towards EA will continue to sink into the depths of the abyss. They would be indicating a nigh on criminal reversion to the same tactics of 5 steps backwards, 2 steps forward and I would hope that someone with some legal knowledge and a great deal of cash would sue them to high hell for it.